Did anyone else watch Nightline tonight?

[BigMcLargehuge]

the Evolution/Creationism story?

Man these people piss me off...

[Az]

1. Try debating them

Arrrrrgggg. Words fail me how frustrating they can be. I used to be a mod for IRC Dalnet #atheism(a debating channel). They would come to our arena and claim to use reason to challenge our position. We would beat them back time after time. They would return with a new dump of stuff for us to have to dig through to find the strawmen.

I remember one nutter that completely rejected the scientific process. We were trying to explain how simple it was and effective. The subject got to ice expanding when it freezes. The nutter refused to believe us. So we told him to go get a pop bottle, fill it with water, seal it, and throw it in the freezer. Poof he was a scientist.

Its frustrating. But unfortunately it is human nature. Reason is just a tool. Our minds don't reach for it unless it thinks it has to. And if the belief outweighs the words being thrown at them then there is no reason for them to challenge their beliefs.

[trotsky]

2. You're kidding, right?

He doubted that ice expanded?

Then how did he think ice was able to float? Magic? Wait, don't answer that one - the obvious answer is GODDIDIT.

[progressoid]

3. Ice doesn't expand??

Holy shit! - - That's my new favorite phrase, because that's what it is; CRAP that they think is holy.

However, how do you deal with relatively intelligent people that accept scientific data but still buy into the biblical explanations of the world? This is frustrating for me, since I have a few close relatives that are in the sciences but are fairly religious too (like my father and brother who were/are science teachers). They aren't fundies by any stretch. In fact, one is a Democrat and the other is a Green. They don't dispute evolution and they reject creationism as science. However, they cling to this archaic religion. I don't get it.

It's not a creationism/evolution conflict that I see with them. It's more of a logic issue. They are reasoned, logical people except when it comes to their religion.

I can understand how simpletons are taken in by these pseudo-scientists. But I have a hard time understanding how intelligent people can be so blind to the obvious.

[BigMcLargehuge]

4. I married into a whole family of them

so debating them is a long standing tradition at family gatherings.

What I don't understand is their complete reluctance to even consider evidence or any kind, at all. Rather than look over the simplest examples, i.e. disease resistant bacteria which can be explained very quickly, or the fossil record, sedementary rock, etc... they concoct whacked out circuitous myths to "explain" their acceptance of the 6000 year old Earth.

You can't even argue on anthropological grounds, i.e. Chinese civilization predates the Old Testament dates and numbers, without being told it's a ruse by Satan to trap you.

It's maddening.

What really pissed me off the most last night was the school board member who, when asked what Intelligent Design was, could not or would not answer. Why is this person a school board member? How can anyone have an informed debate in a public forum with opponents who do not even understand their own side of the argument, let alone yours?

The whole teleological argument was killed by David Hume almost 200 years ago and I am astounded to see it cropping up again and again and again. Simply because they cannot conceive of a complex biomechanical construct like "the eye" does not in any way, shape or form, suggest it had to be assembled by some intelligent entity.

Sadder still were the stats on the show, 35% accept evolution while 35% accept "creation" whereas 29% don't know enough about either... it's astounding that we even have science programs in the US anymore.

I can't wait for my kid to start school so I can get into this whole row. I know there are creationists whackos on the local school board.

[Hamlette]

5. reason and faith

"I can't wait for my kid to start school so I can get into this whole row."

This is why we must never abandon the public schools. Society needs smart mouthy people like us to stick up for the schools. (a little off topic, I know.)

Whenever I get into a discussion about religion with a believer I just say "where reason ends, faith begins. There is no sense having a rational discussion about faith because it is devoid of reason."

[SlackJawedYokel]

6. Has anyone read Anti-Intellectualism in American Life

by Richard Hofstadter?
This isn't a new thing. It was written in the early 1960's.
(warning, this book can be depressing)

I still think that Karen Armstrong nailed it in Battle for God when she differentiated between the pre-modern believers in mythos and the modern believers in logos... myth versus logic.
The scariest of the cognitive illusions of fundamentalists in general and Christian fundy's in particular is that they don't/can't realize that they are *part* of the modern world... ie., believers in logos, in that they attempt to *rationalize* the irrational, the mythos.
Pre-modern believers didn't bother to rationalize their myths... it wasn't necessary to their world-view.
Their myths helped them feel like they could make sense of a seemingly senseless world.
No one actually *saw* giants cyclopean creatures or winged horses or fiery gods... but it made their worlds less scary/more understandable to imagine they existed and were the cause of things.

I must say, though, that to find someone who doesn't know that ice expands is more of an indictment of our education system than it is their beliefs.

Cletus