The atheist as asshole

[Modem Butterfly]

I've been doing some thinking about this lately. It seems that a lot of atheists are "assholes". Before you hit "alert", I include myself in this group. We're contrary people by nature, not willing to simply let sloppy arguments slide, unswayed by sentiment and emotion. We're often the ones who point out uncomfortable truths to people, sort of like the guy who tells everyone how the magic tricks are done, or the kid who explains to the rest of the class why there is no Santa Claus or Tooth Fairy. Being an open atheist is like waving a red flag at certain people, certain aggressive people with known terrorist leanings (Oklahoma City anyone?), so it's safe to say that many known atheists are also unconcerned with the opinions of others. I think that being an atheist requires a definite stubborn streak as well as an independant mind. We're not willing to accept simple bumper sticker slogans as valid arguments. And face it, all this together often makes other people uncomfortable, or an "asshole".

What do you think?

[Beetwasher]

1. Well, I'm Honest Enough To Admit That I Most Certainly Am An Asshole

But I'm usually a correct asshole! At least I'm honest about it! :evilgrin:

[Modem Butterfly]

8. Amen to that!

Pun absolutely intended!

[Taxloss]

2. I favour the quiet life, but ...

... once I have hold on the loose corner of an argument I CANNOT let go. And these deists leave their loose threads trailing everywhere.

[lazarus]

3. eh

I guess. We're not so much assholes as gadflies, or at least that's my focus.

I will say we tend to be rather touchy, because we're so assaulted all the time in society.

[Modem Butterfly]

9. Yeah, but gadfly isn't alliterative

Plus, to be perfectly honest, the term "gadfly" didn't even occur to me until your post. I agree, it is a more accurate, less charged word.

[Biased Liberal Media]

4. Well...Here are my thoughts

and they may not be popular. I am tired of the Christian-bashing, specifically towards DUers who are liberal Xians. You CAN be a Xian and be liberal, in my humble opinion. I just wish that bashing on BOTH sides would halt.

Just my .02 cents for what it's worth.

[Dookus]

7. I have never

once seen anybody here assert that liberals can't be christians. Never. Not once. Ever.

What people call "christian bashing" (and the term is brought out at the very first HINT of criticism of religion) is simply not bashing by any reasonable definition. There is a valid discussion to be had about the oppressive role religion has played in our society for thousands of years. I don't believe mentioning it should be perceived as an attack on your personal beliefs.

As has been said a thousand times here, christianity is not under any serious attack - not by a long shot. At the current rate, the christian stranglehold on Western Civilization will survive for thousands of years. What more do you want? Absolute, 100% acquiescence?

Sorry, but I think the christian claims of persecution in America are just out-and-out crybabyism.

[Caution]

12. Well said.

I'm going to steal this from you. Hmm...stealing ideas from another...I guess I AM an asshole!

[Biased Liberal Media]

14. I am not accusing you of that...what I'm saying is

we ought to show a little tolerance for others with other religions...even those who are Christian.

And for what it's worth, I agree with the persecution bit, I'm tired of that myself. however, I'm only trying to be fair...there is NOTHING wrong with that.

[toddzilla]

5. i let so much slide it's not even funny anymore

All the sloppy arguments, the faulty reasoning, the conveniently remembered or fogotten facts.. it's just not worth constantly pissing people off for the sake of being right.

people need their illusions, period.

[Dookus]

6. You're right

to a degree. People do often consider us "assholes" because what we say makes them very very uncomfortable, and the kneejerk response to people who make us feel that way is to consider them assholes.

But I agree with laz, that in reality, we're just gadflies. The assholishness is not in us, but assigned to us by those we disturb.

It's natural and understandable. They make assertions and we question them... we back them into corners... we make things VERY uncomfortable. Of course they'll feel badly toward us - it's a natural response when you can't really defend your position.

Some of us are also rather assertive in our views, and that's seen as assholish. Of course, compared the assertiveness of the religious majority, we're merely motes of dust, but we do challenge some very deeply held beliefs and that always makes people uncomfortable.

[Beetwasher]

11. "We're Just Gadflies"...Hey! I Can Be A Gadfly AND An Asshole!

I'm a really good multi-tasker! :evilgrin:

Really, I couldn't care less if people think I'm an asshole. I've been called an asshole before and I usually just say "Yeah, so? What's your point?" :shrug:

[BigMcLargehuge]

10. I dunno about being an asshole, per say, at least not on a personal

basis. I tend to be pretty easy going, even when I am in the midst of an argument. I try to keep my comments logical and concise. I also try to avoid getting emotional even when the person with whom I'm arguing is in the midst of an conniption fit because they they don't have the rational nature or the debate skills to effective counter the standard atheist arguments about the non- existence of god(s).

I married into a family of fundamentalists (7th Day Adventists) some of whom are obsessed with the end of the world and making sure everyone is ready to meet Jesus... Astoundingly, being humble and nice to them, even when arguing, has made my relationship with virtually all of them very very good.

[GOPFighter]

13. Depends on how outspoken one is

I've gotten to the point where I will not let stupid political comments go unanswered, but I rarely challenge people's religious beliefs unless they are trying to force their beliefs on me or the laws that govern me. Just as I don't believe others should try to convert me, I don't feel a great need to convert others. Of course, I'm always ready for a good discussion/argument if someone wants to try to convert me.

I think what defines atheists is our thirst for truth and our insistence that arguments be based on facts or logic.

[Az]

15. We are destroyer's of dreams

We demolish the hopes and prayers of those who have lived with nothing but. We squash marvels. We undermine the comfort of tradition.

We have seen the big lie for what it is and see everyone else still beholden to it as poor deluded fools. Some decide to rush out and confront them with their delusions and become the destroyers.

There are other ways. We can still set about working to rid the world of delusions and false beliefs. But as long as we continue to play the part of destroyer people will know to put their defenses up and resist anything we may have to contribute.

Allowing people to keep their dreams does not mean you stop trying to guide them out of them. It just means that you have to put a little more time into finding out what the means to wake them may be. Some simply may not be ready to wake up. Some may never do so.

[leftofthedial]

16. bite me

[Az]

17. Asshole

:evilgrin:

[leftofthedial]

18. that's me

[Carl Brennan]

19. We dispel myths.

While many of us enjoy mythology.

[BurtWorm]

20. Confession

I'm being an asshole in a thread on intercessory prayer in the Religion forum because I can't understand what the fuck a theist is saying. I can't help not being an asshole in this instance. I'm not proud of myself, but, whoomp, there it is.

[Az]

21. To paraphrase Patton

The trick isn't to be an asshole for your beliefs, its to get the other bastard to be an asshole for their beliefs.

[BurtWorm]

22. Then I was a Patton

without even trying!

[Modem Butterfly]

23. A lot of theists are already there...

:evilgrin:

[MadisonProgressive]

24. Atheists may be assholes, but us agnostics are just irritating

self-centered know-it-alls. I think everyone else is full of shit.

Damn, I guess that does make me an asshole!:toast:

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. In the run-up to the selection I got in a discussion with a co-worker

who was insisting that the end days were here, and all they needed to do was find the flawless calf for sacrifice, and yada yada.

I said he was fooling himself. He would live out his life and never see the end of days.

"All of it is true," he said, "and God will make it happen."

"God won't make it happen, because he doesn't exist."

He looked a little nervous, so I continued, "If you want proof, I defy him to strike me down, right now, on the spot. When he doesn't you will see that he doesn't exist, because if he did he wouldn't let me challange him."

The guy literally stepped back three paces, as if he thouoght I was going to be struck by lightning then and there.

So, yeah, I'm an asshole.

[Old Mouse]

26. I am NOT an atheist

but I still agree with you.

I am always curious to know more of how people perceive themselves, and their relationship to the world around them. But in discussions with a few of the dedicated atheists here on DU I find a pre-determined expectation of oppression and prejudice can interfere with normal conversation.

I need to understand more about the emotional culture organized atheism creates.

[Book Lover]

27. You'll have a hard time

Because "organized atheism" doesn't exist.

[Old Mouse]

28. You all found each other

thats enough for me to better my understanding.

I have already learned a lot on DU about prejudice against atheism I never knew existed. That is because of your informal gathering, hence the term organized. You share history and written reference you quote with ease. I knew about Madalyn Murray O'Hair because of the odd circumstances of her case, but I never herd this sort of life experiences discussion.

[Book Lover]

29. Oh, I understand

My apologies; I misunderstood you. I suppose we are organized, after all...

[Old Mouse]

30. more organized then me, anyway!

[Modem Butterfly]

A challenge

If you want to understand us, try going through what we go through. Buy yourself a t-shirt that says "Nobody knows I'm an Atheist" or "Proud American Atheist" or something along those lines. Wear it to the mall. Change into it after work and wear it to buy groceries. Walk your dog in the park while identifying yourself as an atheist. I think you'll find the experience most enlightening.

If you're reluctant to accept this challenge, think about why. Be honest with yourself. Maybe you do have an understanding of where a pre-conceived expectation of oppression and prejudice is coming from.

[Old Mouse]

34. Try having a cop shove a gun in your back

and tell you he's going to spray your guts across the wall for fun. Try being told you're not like the "rest of your people" because you can speak well. Try having your girlfriends parents tell her you can't date because your children will be "striped" Try being the only one in a group of seven people to be carded, or pulled out of a car by the police. Try having your regional manager ask your boss how he can stand working around "those people" Try having your mother put in the hospital by a sheriff in Texas. Try having your brother's friend go into solitary confinement for a traffic ticket and not come out alive. Try having your father, in full military uniform, thrown out of a restaurant because of his race. try having your grandfather thrown off of a two story building onto a heap of scrap metal. Try having a lynch mob hunting through the swamp for your great-grandfather. Try getting pulled out of line at every international airline security point.

You guys can be a little arrogant.

[Book Lover]

35. ...

...

[Az]

36. So

Because the oppression some people suffer from don't match the oppression others have suffered from their complaints don't count?

[Modem Butterfly]

37. I'm a person of color

Please don't assume. Thank-you.

[Old Mouse]

39. I don't care if you're plaid

I asked about negative experiences atheists have suffered. I did it in what I feel was a respectful tone.

I have poised the same questions and had similar conversations with Muslims, Buddhists, Born-gain Christians, Mormons, Jehovah's Wittinesses, Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox and reformist Jews.

I've discussed the issues with Rabbis, Monks and Priests. Cult members, active and reformed.

Ive discussed oppression, prejudice and bigotry with people all over the globe, Australians on the aboriginal issue, white and black America, the transformation of the American latin population, Korean subjugation in modern Japan, Pacific rim refugees in Thailand, Vietnamese experience in California, Samoan and Tongan experience in Los Angeles, on and on...

Never NEVER have I received such a self-centered insulting response. Such arrogance is beyond my level of tolerance, and it has northing to do with your atheist beliefs. I hope to get the chance to discuss this subject whits someone who can articulate the reality of experience without such an accusatory and audacious tone.

[Zenlitened]

40. From reason to rage, so quickly

Where was the "self-centered insulting response" you received?

Where was the "arrogance," the "accusatory and audacious tone"?

Or is this post meant as a sort of deep satire, subtly demonstrating the shortcomings of claims of persecution?

:shrug:

[Modem Butterfly]

41. I'm sorry you feel insulted. But you need to ask yourself why

I invited you to experience the world as an atheist does for a few hours. I didn't denigrate or negate your experience in any way. I didn't question your motives, nor did I suggest that you have lived a life free of ignorance and prejudice. Instead, all I asked was for you to try walking a mile in our shoes.

And, in response, you post a long rant about the prejudice and ignorance you've experienced. Surely then, you know in a very real way, that some things can't be conveyed through words. Some things have to be experienced to be understood. I've invited you to share this experience in a small way. You've responded with what I perceive to be a great deal of hostility.

You reply that you've discussed oppression and bigotry with people from all over the world. I wonder then, why your mind is so closed to the idea of possibly experiencing some? Is it fear? Or is it perhaps something else? What, exactly, do you find self-centered and insulting about the idea that you try presenting yourself to the world as an atheist for a few hours? What, exactly, is so arrogant about inviting you to join with us for a day? What, exactly, is beyond your tolerance at the idea that you present yourself as an atheist?

Am I audacious? Oh yes. Accusatory? No. I have offered my seat to you for the day. Your refusal speaks volumes.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. Not really assholes, well, some are

To me, there is a difference between pointing out a difference and calling/implying someone is delusional or mentally ill. I am sick of Christians who claim ever slight is "bashing" or persecution, but to attack their core faith as a mental issue condition is not appropriate.

I am spiritual, have faith, and do some "odd" things, but I don't force them on anyone and I don't require anyone to agree with me. I also don't get offended if people don't believe the way I do, but I don't appreciate being told I am a "psycho" because of what I believe.

Just my two cents.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[trotsky]

33. Hmmm... does Grovelbot believe in gods?

OR... *is* Grovelbot a god?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[Modem Butterfly]

38. Maybe Grovelbot is an asshole