In the event of the death of the Pope

[Taxloss]

I think we should send someone as a representative to offer our sympathies and our thoughts for their feelings. There's been so much ill-will, I really feel for the Catholic DUers right now. I think we, as a group, should extend a hand of peace and sympathy.

[rexcat]

1. No...

Considering the history of the catholic church with the current pediophile issues, past inquisitions, killing of heritics and the many other offenses the Church has committed over the last 2000 years I say - no.

The reality of the situation is the pope is old, he is ill and he will eventually die (just like the rest of us). He has had a long life and lived better than most of the inhabitants of planet Earth. He does not want for food clothing,or shelter.

I do not agree with many of the edicts of the Catholic church because I think that they have harmed many people and harmed our planet I can't get to excited about his situation but I do understand that when he dies many people in and out of the chucrh will be affected by his demise. I won't.

[Az]

2. I agree

Our goal here is social cohesion. While we may harbor dreams and hopes of seeing religion dwindle in influence it is here presently and many have a great part of their life invested in their beliefs. To not recognise their sense of loss despite our lack of belief will simply distance us and dehumanise us all the more.

The first way to help another correct their path is to provide them with an example of how you would like them to behave. If we want respect from them we must show them respect. This does not mean we stop disagreeing with them. Merely that we show understanding of their feelings and let them know that we are an ally, not an enemy.

[trotsky]

5. Arrrrgghhh

I know on one level you're absolutely right, Az.

But on the other hand, this man heads one of the most despicable institutions history has known. Its policies directly result in poverty and suffering in numerous countries. His personal pronouncements have increased the amount of religious and social tension here in the United States, while his church has actively sought to hide the problems of child sexual abuse from its parishoners, even to the point of providing "fresh victims" for its pedophiles in the form of relocation.

Asking me to show respect to someone who admires this man is not all that different than asking me to show respect to someone who admired Hitler, because after all, the German economy boomed under him and education (at least for nice Aryan boys) improved.

I think I had better follow the old advice about not having anything good to say about someone.

[Az]

7. Funerals and sympathy are for the living

The dead are beyond consideration.

The ones we are consoling are those that see the Pope as an important figure to them. Whether they agree with all is policies or not.

This is a critical thing to understand about Catholics. Yes the Pope is supposed to be the big official dogmatic authority of the sect. But Catholics have minds of their own. And they often disagree with the Pope while maintaining respect for him.

It is that respect that will cause their sense of loss when he passes. We can acknowledge that while maintaining our differences with the man ourselves.

Take the opportunity of this forum to vent if you need to. Cripe everytime the pontiff shows up on the tube lately my GF starts yelling at the tube. He generates a lot of emotions and has causes a lot of trouble. There is no denying that. But we do not gain anything by reveling in his death before his fellow Catholics. Instead we lose much.

[Taxloss]

9. Exactly.

Many DUers who are Catholic disagree with the Pope's actions over the past 10 years, but they still see him as head of their church. We need to consider the feelings of Catholic DUers, not the Pope's political beliefs.

[Book Lover]

3. The trouble with "We"

I don't think it appropriate for any one person to speak for this group, especially on such a divisive issue as Mr. Wojtyla's health. Personally, I feel very bad for the man, but I wouldn't express those feelings on behalf of anyone else.

[Az]

4. Then perhaps we should act as individuals

But discuss how best to address the situation here together. That way we can pool our thoughts and see if there is a reasonable course to take.

[progressoid]

6. Yes, I think many here are

quite sincere in their condolences for the popes impending doom. Personally, it would be hypocritical of me to offer mine since I couldn't care less. Also, I know a handful of Catholics, and since they seem to be normal people, it wouldn't be nice for me to say what I actually feel.

"Since you people are in this transitional stage, perhaps you would like to join the rest of us in the 21st century - just to see what it's like. I know, I know, 'history', 'tradition' and all of that are important to you. But a lot of us appreciate history and tradition without having to live in the 17th century. C'mon, give it a try. You'll be stunned by the things that you have missed.

But, if you prefer genuflecting, dry wafers, & sacred sperm over enlightenment, go ahead. Clearly you have some issues to deal with, over which reason and common sense are powerless.

God Bless"

[Taxloss]

8. My feeling was that collective action might be less easy to misinterpret.

If we wandered over individually and said "Your spritiual figurehead's died. Sorry about that" it might look insincere or like an invasion or something. Catholic DUers seem to have a siege mentality right now, and frankly I can't blame them.

[fshrink]

10. I have sympathy and thoughts

for *anyone* who suffers and is in a situation of loneliness, powerlessness and pain. I have no sympathy, and very negative thoughts, for anyone who denies this human condition. I guess you can call that "ill-will". And I do not extend my hand to such people, until they acknowledge their sense of loneliness, powerlessness and pain. In effect, and in spite of their theatrical act and noisy protests, all believers turn their back on mankind. And it's silly to extend a hand to someone's back.

[Az]

11. Denies that condition?

Could you clarify that for me? It seems to me they acknowledge it but fill it in with a benevelant god (except for the Calvanists, and they just sub in ego).

This is often the basis of the look of pity they throw at us. They feel the need to be watched over and saved. And they believe their god offers them the comfort and grace they so desperately crave. They look at our stance and see it as lonely and unecissarily so. They believe it is our obstenance that keeps us from embracing gods love.

[fshrink]

12. The look of pity

is not even from one human being to another, to another self. It's from a "saved" one condescending to a lost ewe. It is pity indeed and not empathy or sympathy. Human condition (I could have said predicament, really) is to feel this tremendous dispair of knowing that we don't know, to have the awareness of our finitude. This is what defines our species. Believers deny it by building a construction or another that amounts to erasing, denying, this fundamental human-ness. In so doing, they turn their back on all of us, on our solitude and pain. I will always remember the scary look of certitude and happiness on the face of a co-worker, heavy-duty believer, who had just lost his father. His back was turned on me. Same with junkies.

[Az]

13. Junkies are not too far a comparison

You are right that we are burdened with uncertainty. It is a state we detest. Unfortunately into such a void often times things do find their way.

I would not say that the believer creates the certainty they desire. Rather I favor the notion that they are infected or immersed in it. It is an evolutionary social construct that most find themself thrust into already formed whole. Having developed over 1000s of years. It is very effective and tailored for exactly our desires and needs.

Like a junkies brain that craves the molecule that so perfectly fits the pleasure centers of the brain. Religious belief perfectly fits the minds need for answers.

So then the question is how do you treat a junkie? Particularly when the individuals not high on the drug are in the minority. When the society is flooded and immersed in the drug.

[fshrink]

14. I work with junkies.

You can work with them only when they come down. Short of that, they just look through you. They come down when their situation deteriorates to the point where denial cannot work well enough, when there's no substance available, when they catch a glimpse of their dependence or when their surroundings are so stimulating (positively or negatively) that the substance produces an effect less intense than the environment does. Then, they can start to make sense of their lives. I think that the most likely efficient, as far as masses, is the last one. And it's not controllable...

[Az]

16. When the emotions of the high begin to lose their edge

And the emotions of survival and reality continue to build up. When one overtakes the other the focus shifts. Its the same thing with belief. Their emotional reliance on their belief is too high. Reason and rational thought only come into play where there is doubt.

We cannot demonstrate the unreasonableness of the idea of god. There is simply no fulcrum there to leverage against to overcome their emotional dependence. But their beliefs come with other aspects. And these work in conjunction with the belief in god to keep it insulated from the minds continuous selfexamination.

The trick is to shatter the guards around the belief. Things they take for granted. Sometimes this happens naturally and tragicaly. Great emotional upheaval can shift their belief systems. But there are other ways as well.

Building support structures for reason and heading off certain aspects of the belief system before they take hold can be fertile. Finding a belief or concept within their structure that can be directly refuted in a real and convincing way can be very effective if used correctly.

The real trick is to find something that their mind will grab onto and take inside. Something it can mull around and eventually build up pressure to crack the defenses a bit. There are many ways to deploy such a seed. It only takes patience after that.

[slutticus]

15. How about a respectful silence?

That's what I was planning. I was just going to stay away from the "The Pope has Died" threads all together.

[goddess40]

17. The pope is like bush - a figure head

besides he's just a man, similar to a company CEO.

[Modem Butterfly]

18. The death of an individual is a very sad thing

I'm sorry to hear that anyone has died. Life is so short and fleeting, and it's a shame we can't live forever.

You know, I was a big Warren Zevon fan. I got to see him live a couple of times. I didn't get the chance to meet him, and now I never will, but I feel very close to him from his music. He was a good man, and a wise man. But I would have considered it very strange to see a large, mass gesture of sympathy from people when he died.

When the Pope dies, if I run across an observant Catholic, I'll say that I'm sorry he's gone. But I'm not going to rend my clothing, dress all in black, and send flowers.

[Gelliebeans]

24. I agree completely

Life is short and we can't live forever.

I have never agreed with the pope's position but I can definitely empathize with a fellow human being's loss.

All I can hope for is reciprocation in the event it is me mourning for someone I hold in high regard.

It doesn't serve me personally to walk over his grave. I will save my criticisms for another day.

[GOPFighter]

19. I've thought about this a lot

I'm not normally a mean-spirited person, but I will feel very little sadness when the Pope dies. I will feel sad for the death of the man who was Pope, for death is finality. At death, there are no new chapters to life, and I think it is human nature to continue the story that is us. But when I think of all the good that a Pope could do in the world and examine the issues this Pope has been focusing on, I feel nothing but anger and some disgust. I'm aware that as a younger man he showed flashes of courage and social awareness and responsibility, but recently he was not that different than the American Fundies in his concerns.

I would oppose any group message of sympathy to Catholics on the death of the Pope because that would not represent my feelings. This isn't meant to be disrespectful of Catholics, my wife is Catholic, but I just don't see much courageous leadership among religious leaders these days, and it should make everyone wonder: Why?

[immoderate]

20. I would join in a reasonable action, but

for all I know the Catholics at DU are happy to see the old geezer go.:shrug:

My very own "sermon on the bowl" guides me thusly: My version of the golden rule is adapted from a line by Patrick Swayze in the movie "Road House." He instructs the bouncers, "Always be nice! -- until it's time to not be nice." That time, in my mind, is when it's the only way for there to be a positive outcome.

So, I'm for whatever gesture will be appreciated, though I don't know, in the ettiquette of bulletin board groups with incompatible philosophies, what would be appropriate.

--IMM

[haele]

21. You mean we shouldn't light up the barbecue

and tell them what color smoke comes up...?

Sorry, that's tasteless...but not as tasteless as commiserating with the Catholic Organization and telling them we hope that Diebold won't be counting the votes afterwords...

Sorry again. I've gotten it out of my system, and will be good now. It will be a sad day for many believers and for most people who have some respect for the authority of the Pope.
I'm not sure they'll take much commiseration from those of us who aren't Catholic without also expecting us to "see the light", as it were. Perhaps the best we can do as non-Catholics is not to indulge in venting in the threads where people are expressing grief, nor jump back in the faces of those who seek us out looking for any sort of "disrespect" that they can jump up and down on to feel better about their faith and its worth to them.
It will be a bad time for those who believe. But its equally difficult to expect many of us who don't agree with a lot of the actions and words of this man to join the grieving for him when he goes.

Haele

[DemBones DemBones]

22. How nice to see that some of you are thinking ahead and

are sensitive to our (Catholic) feelings! That's not too common around here and I'm pleasantly surprised. I'm sure we'll all appreciate any sympathy extended when John Paul II dies. We'll be keeping our heads down and avoiding LBN and GD, I think.

We dread the ugliness that some will post here when the Pope dies, just as you might dread the ugliness that some might post at FR when a well-known atheist or agnostic dies. (Actually, JP II will get ugly posts here and at FR. Damn.)

Most Catholics disagree with John Paul II on some issues but we don't like to see him kicked around. He's like family, you know.

Peace.

[Book Lover]

23. Now that the end seems near

I see that Az has offered his condolences in the Catholic/Orthodox group. For those of us who want to do the same, should we add into that thread or what? (Yes, I changed my mind. Hearing my still-Catholic father cry will do that.)

[fshrink]

25. Still not.

I will not participate to this appalling spectacle.

[onager]

26. I'm with you, fshrink

As posted elsewhere and earlier, I will think of the millions who are suffering and dying due to the inhuman policies of this corporation and its CEO.

My job has taken me all over the world and I've seen enough of them with my own eyes.

I refuse to be a hypocrite on this issue.

[Az]

27. Not trying to change your minds

But I would just like to say its not a matter of what he has done. To our eyes he is simly gone(when he dies). But there are people. People who looked to him for wisdom. That we do not agree with that wisdom is not the point at this moment. It is that millions of people are hurt and suffering.

If our issues with the beliefs regarding rights and acceptance are based on compassion then this is a time to exercise that compassion. All the world cannot be on the same page with their beliefs, prejudices, and understanding. The only thing we can be on the same page on is our humanity. Turn your back on that and we have lost any means of bringing people together on issues that we truly believe in.

An old man is dying today. Many people loved him. They are hurting. Today we can offer them a shoulder to lean on. Tomorrow we can talk to them about the things we think they are wrong about.

[onager]

31. OK, I finally posted this in Velma's thread...

I do hate seeing so many people I like and respect (on-line) grieving so deeply because of the Pope's condition.

Further than this, deponent sayeth not.

But she was offering free ice cream if the thread made it to 200 posts without any being deleted...

:party:

[Rhiannon12866]

28. Me, too. Most of my family is Catholic and I understand.

I may be lapsed, but I feel real sorrow at the passing of this remarkable man, who fought the Nazis, the Communists, was an athlete and a playwright and brought a lot of people together. I have no ill will towards anybody. I'm a liberal, and it's not the Catholics who have caused the trouble, since they're not out to change the world. They are secure in their faith and are not going to proselytize. Most of my family are Catholic, and it's never a topic of discussion. It's the fundies who scare me. I'm on board with extending a hand of sympathy and peace.

Rhiannon :grouphug:

[Jamastiene]

30. The fundies are VERY scary.

I'm a product of their baloney. See what it does to people. :crazy: That's why I rail against them. They hated Catholics AND Jews and all others at the Christian school I went to. I don't necessarily agree with most of what the Pope said about many issues, but if it goes against that bunch that made me crazy, I'll offer condolences to the people who were followers or whatever of his. I'll give him credit for fighting the nazis. Good enough.

Oh well, I tried.

[Rhiannon12866]

32. They sure are and I'm very sorry. Bush* is one of their ilk.

I have heard how he's mobilized fellow fundies and manipulated elections by scaring them to death, and these folks have a lot of unnecessary fears. Bush* may praise the Pope, but he has a short memory. The Pope totally opposed the war in Iraq, in fact fought against it, and said publicly that George Bush* had all the characteristics of the anti-Christ. How soon we forget.:shrug:

And I agree with you, that this man, Pope or not, did so much good. He saved children from the Nazis and was instrumental in bringing down the USSR, communism in Russia. Not a small accomplishment. And he loved people of all faiths, even us non-believers. I mourn his passing.;(

You did try and did very well. Thanks for your post, from another who believes as you do.:pals:

[Jamastiene]

35. I applaud him for saving people from the nazis for sure.

And yes, we think alike on that. :pals:

[Rhiannon12866]

36. Thanks. History knows he did this, and he also helped eradicate

Communism in Eastern Europe. How many of us have accomplished this? While I am totally understanding the opposition to his social conservatism, I cannot overlook his amazing accomplishments. He was a many-faceted human being, as are all of us, but I do believe he accomplished more than most in his lifetime. Thanks for your kind reply.:-)

[Jamastiene]

29. I'll try but

I happened to click a link on the Latest page and it turned out to be the Catholic forums and they didn't seem to get along amongst themselves. I take it not all Catholics, Faith B here, Faith C here, etc. think alike. I'll be peaceful and sympathetic if others will be. I still don't agree with much of what the Pope expected out of people although it was good he apologized for a lot of stuff. That shocked me personally. I'll give him credit for that much. Otherwise, I don't think Catholicism would be for me any more than Christianity.

[Rhiannon12866]

33. The important thing that we have to remember about this man,

Pope or not, and you know I feel as you do, is that he saved children from Nazi death camps and fought the Communists, helping to bring democracy to Poland and bringing down the USSR. He was one of the first Popes, in years, to visit Washington, during the Carter administration, and Jimmy Carter was also instrumental in ending Communism in Russia, through his grain embargo. This Pope also condemned Bush*'s proposed war in Iraq and publicly cited this Bush*'s similarities with the anti-Christ, no matter how much Bush* is praising him now. This was a brave and heroic man, despite his social conservatism. You don't have to be Catholic or Christian to admire his actions or outspokenness. We can argue the finer points on DU, but I believe that this man, Pope or not, was a force for good in this world.:-)

[Taxloss]

39. It is precisely that kind of post

that I desperately hoped for when I started this thred two months ago. Thank you.

[Rhiannon12866]

41. You're most welcome.

I may have lost faith, but I respect those who have it, and, particularly, this man, who did so much good in the world. I do not understand the flames, since he wanted what we all want, no war and he was anti-Bush*. He was socially conservative, but he was going by Church teachings. That's why he is unpopular, here, but he still did more good, in this world, than any of us can imagine, and that must count for something. Thanks to you, as well.

Rhiannon :hug:

[Pithlet]

34. I just did

I'm afraid that might lose me some respect from some other DUers that I like and respect. But, I can't help that :(

[Rhiannon12866]

37. No, I sure still respect you. That's what liberalism is all about.

We have a "big tent" and respect others' opinions, at least that's what I believe.:shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

38. you shouldn't worry about what others think.

what I decide to do or not do is for myself only. I don't judge others. We all have our reasons for what we decide. I am sure people think I am pure evil for the choice I made in this matter. I don't care and nobody should judge you for how you deal with it. :hi:

[Rhiannon12866]

40. I totally agree with you. We are all entitled to our beliefs.

I may not have the faith that this Pope had, but I do believe that he led a remarkable life and accomplished a lot. He did much good in this world. Who can ask more? I don't judge others, either, but I do praise kindness and good works. Thanks for your post.:-)