Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Great anti-ID article (from a rightie, no less.. go figure)

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Science & Skepticism » Atheists and Agnostics Group Donate to DU
 
opiate69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-08-05 10:35 PM
Original message
Great anti-ID article (from a rightie, no less.. go figure)
Just a round-up of points from the ID folder.

First, a general remark. I like a good knock-down argument as much as the next person, but I must say, ID-ers are low-grade opponents, at least if a bulk of my e-mails are any indication. They are still banging away with the arguments I first heard when the whole thing first surfaced 10-15 yrs ago. "What use is half an eye?" "The odds against this are a trillion to one!" etc. etc. There is nothing new here. I understand why biologists get angry and frustrated with ID-ers. All the ID arguments have been patiently refuted many times over. The ID-ers response is to come back with... the same arguments.

Anyway, here are a few of the commonest things I hear.

(1) "The fossil record is incomplete." Well, duh. Fossilization only happens under extraordinary circumstances. The chance that any particular organism -- me, for instance -- will be recovered as a fossil eons hence is microscopically small. To add to the incompleteness, soft body parts hardly ever get fossilized. We are working from a pretty scanty data set here. Hard to see how it could be otherwise.

(2) "...Therefore you have no right to go constructing theories, given that the data set is so sparse." Scientists build theories from much worse data sets than this. Try stopping them. The forthcoming (I think) issue of National Review contains a review by me of Simon Singh's new book THE BIG BANG, about the history of scientific cosmology. The data set in cosmology is so hard to gather that even very basic questions like "is the overall structure of the universe static or dynamic?" were not resolved until very recently. Science does what it can with the data it can gather. A good scientific theory fits the data better than a poor theory. ("God makes it happen!" is, by the way, not a scientific theory, though it may be a metaphysical one.)

(3) "Evolution isn't scientific because you can't test it in a lab." For heaven's sake. That criterion would invalidate most of science. The theory of continental drift, for example -- how are you going to get Eurasia in through the lab door? We have excellent theories to account for the behavior of stars, but you can't put a star in your lab, nor even duplicate star-stuff in small quantitites. As I said, this is low-grade argumentation. (And, see below, we are actually quite close to a point where we CAN do evolution in the lab.)

(4) "Organizational complexity cannot arise from simplicity by natural processes." How do you know it can't? It is true that the genesis of organizational complexity is not currently well understood; but to leap from that to telling me we shall NEVER be able to find a natural-law explanation for it is just dogma. At any point in history, all sorts of thing are not well understood. Science is "open," working from the ground assumption that natural phenomena have natural explanations that can be formulated mathematically. To declare that such and such a phenomenon will NEVER yield to this kind of inquiry is absurd, not to mention offensively arrogant. Perhaps, indeed, it won't; perhaps some phenomena that science assumes to be natural -- the phenomenon of human consciousness, for instance -- may turn out to be not susceptible to the scientific method. I would not myself rule that out. However, to say you KNOW this, because... you just KNOW, is silly. Remember Comte, who in 1842 declared that "We can never know anything of the chemical or mineralogical structure" of the stars. He was hardly cold in his grave before the spectrograph was invented, and now we know all about that structure.

(snip)http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/05_02_06_corner-archive.asp#055599
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-09-05 07:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Our entire Space Program is based on a theory... the old one, to boot!
We travel in space based on Newtonian physics.

We haven't even tried Einstein's theories yet.

Show me your divine space travel program, IDers!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
2. Organizational complexity
Happens all the time. Not a random event, so throw out the lottery type odds against the formation of life.

Simple example. Snow flakes are unique and symmetrical and more complex than the water vapor they form themselves from.

The key process is called autocatalysis. In the dynamics of chemical "soup" compunds can form in various ways. The geometry and distribution of charges promotes certain structures. Some of those structures have the shape and charge distribution to promote others. This system, which was set at the beginning of the universe, reqires no intelligence to guide it. Life will form as a result of energy gradient as existence "rolls downhill."

Could an intelligent designer have had a hand in the design process previous to the Big Bang, to insure that these building blocks would have the characteristics that would lead to life? I'm quite sure we'll be extinct before we can know that. I believe it is unknowable.

--IMM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You've been reading Stuart Kauffman, haven't you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-05 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Don't know Kauffman.
Out of several references, I like Gleik on Chaos, and Waldrop on Complexity.

--IMM
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. If you liked "Chaos" and "Complexity"...
I think you would like Stuart Kauffman's book "At Home in the Universe: the search for the laws of self-organization"

I was thinking of "auto catalytic sets", which come to think of it isn't the same thing as "autocatalysis", although they both are mechanisms of self-organization.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
3. regarding (3)
most creationists *do* also tend to disbelieve continental drift, and cosmology. At least, the creationists of the "god created the world 6000 years ago" flavor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-22-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Good (old) article in the neocon press...
Edited on Tue Feb-22-05 04:07 PM by onager
Origin of the Specious: Why do neoconservatives doubt Darwin?

By Ronald Bailey, REASON magazine, July 1997

Bailey hints at just what most of us suspect--that the neocons are a bunch of bloviating hypocrites who think Fundamentalist religion is useful for controlling society.

(Irving) Kristol has been quite candid about his belief that religion is essential for inculcating and sustaining morality in culture. He wrote in a 1991 essay, "If there is one indisputable fact about the human condition it is that no community can survive if it is persuaded--or even if it suspects--that its members are leading meaningless lives in a meaningless universe."

Another prominent neoconservative, Leon Kass, author of Toward a More Natural Science (1985), and a member of the University of Chicago's prestigious Committee on Social Thought, also believes that evolutionary theory poses a threat to social order:

"The creationists and their fundamentalist patrons...sense that orthodox evolutionary theory cannot support any notions we might have regarding human dignity or man's special place in the whole. And they see that Western moral teaching, so closely tied to Scripture, is also in peril if any major part of Scripture can be shown to be false."


Link to whole article: http://reason.com/9707/fe.bailey.shtml



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Dec 27th 2024, 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Science & Skepticism » Atheists and Agnostics Group Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC