Godless Like Me: An Experiment

[Modem Butterfly]

When I was in college, I had a boyfriend who was cheating on me with other men. I realize now, of course, that he was dealing with a lot of issues, but at the time I was furious. I became quite the budding homophobe.

Damn, that was a difficult sentence to write.

Anyway, a friend of mine came out of the closet at the same time, and he bought me a "Nobody Knows I'm a Lesbian" t-shirt and suggested I try wearing it. I hemmed and I hawed, I argued and I excused myself, but I eventually put it on. And a new world opened to me. It was like a veil had been pulled from my eyes. Don't get me wrong, it took me a long time to really become accepting of gays and lesbians, but I finally understood why my ex would have been so motivated to try to be something he wasn't, or at least look like he was something he wasn't.

When our guest, Old Mouse, said that he finds a "a pre-determined expectation of oppression and prejudice can interfere with normal conversation" with atheists, I suggested he try a variant of my own experiment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=263&topic_id=2445&mesg_id=2833&page=

I thought this was such a bright idea, I started a thread in GD about it, which got moved to Religion & Theology.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=10372&mesg_id=10372

I'm sorry I did that. I thought some folks would take offense, others wouldn't take me seriously, and a handful of others would take me up on the offer. I had no idea of the hostility that this idea would dredge up. It's especially depressing to realize that Democrats are supposed to be the party that embraces diversity. I guess that goes out the window when you're actually asked to do more than pay lipservice.

Okay, enough of this maudlin crap. No need for a response, I just wanted to get that out of my system.

[trotsky]

1. I'm curious to know why it took you so long to learn...

that *Christians* are the only persecuted people in the world today?

[Modem Butterfly]

2. What's the icon for "cynical smile"?

Whoops! This is in reply to Trotsky, above.

Is it this? :}

I know I should know, but I keep hoping, you know?

I realize that DU isn't some sort of liberal utopia, but I thought there would at least be some serious discussion of why people would be reluctant to identify themselves as atheists. I figured at least a handful of theists of goodwill would try it out.

Silly me.

:}

[Book Lover]

3. The thread in R&T is why

I self-deleted my reply to Old Mouse in the A&A thread. Reminds me of the Swift quote that you cannot reason someone out of something he was not reasoned into in the first place.

[Modem Butterfly]

4. Unfortunately, it wasn' started there

I actually posted on GD. I don't go into R&T because I don't have a religion and I don't follow theology. But apparently atheistic topics aren't allowed in GD anymore.

[trotsky]

5. You should join us in R&T.

We give the theists enough fits for them to ask the admins whether atheists should be "allowed" in the forum. Thankfully, we are. :)

[progressoid]

6. You gave me a evil laugh

Kind of ironic that we frequent that forum. It probably has as many atheists and thesists posting there.

[Az]

8. It really is the forum for the big throw downs

There are forums for specific sects where they can discuss their own particular notions. But the R&T forum is the wrestling pit. Just as Atheists and Agnostics is our little retreat they have theirs as well.

I would point out that Skinner posts occaisionally in the R&T forum and so far has not complained to me or any other atheists I know of about our stirring things up in there.

[Modem Butterfly]

14. I guess I thought it wasn't a place for Atheists

But hell, since the gang is already there, I might as well join in.

[Az]

7. Its a good and necissary effort

There is a very important thing to remember when posting on a forum like DU. The entirety of your audience is not just the people responding. You reached a lot of people. Most people don't get involved with the most critical discussions. But they read them.

I represent my atheism very openly but I try to maintain a degree of respect for believers. This creates a situation where they often feel they are able to talk to me about things they wouldn't normally talk to another believer about or approach an angry atheist about. A lot of them get it. They have doubts. They see the unfairness of what is going on. Some are even in mid transition. And they appreciate having these discussions being thrashed out in public. It helps them to see strong representation of both sides of the argument.

So don't let the seeming inability to reach those that are posting back at you get to you. There is a quiet contemplative mass of people out there taking it all in. The trick to win them over is always maintain dignity and reason. And if you are arguing a honest point more and more will get it.

[Behind the Aegis]

9. Experiment gone awry

I thought it was a very good idea! I do a variety of diversity programs and in one of those programs, I challenge people to pick a same-sex partner. Then, they are to hold hands, while still in the room...then I challenge them to go out into the hallways...then, further onto the campus. Why do I do this? They know gays are discriminated against, but if they are in that situation, the first-person account is much more educational! You were suggesting the same damn thing.

I read the thread you started and was SHOCKED at some of the responses...I also saw a few "poor Christian" threads...barf! Some people just don't want to get it. Yes, atheists face some discrimination, but if some of these people actually wore the shirts, they would get to see it first-hand. It is the difference between sympathy and empathy!! Good for you!!!

As a pagan, I understand religious discrimination, but I also have witnessed, first-hand, discrimination against atheists, as well. Face it, if you don't fit their brand of "Christianity," then you are evil! And, you are not worth their time. The sad thing is most discrimination against Christians comes from other Christians!

[Az]

10. While there are a lot of lone wolf atheists

There are a lot more that would thrive in a social setting suited for their belief (or lack of) such as religious individuals enjoy. Even pagans have an advantage over atheists in that they form groups to share their practices(of course there are always going to be isolated pagans as with any other minority belief). But atheists get the double whammy of being labeled evil by the more caustic proponents of belief and don't have a social group to comiserate with.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Singing to the choir (of sorts)

I am a solitary practitioner (that way I only have to deal with myself!). But, I understand what you are saying about atheists. There isn't an "atheist community" to speak of. The first real one I have seen is here at DU. This group, I would guess, gives a lot to atheists. It allows them to associate with others like them or share some understanding with them.

Some of the attacks I have seen here, directed at atheists, are much worse than most groups. I am not discounting others experiences with intolerance, but it seems to me, that atheists have their fair share of detractors, even here.

I still think Modem Butterfly's diversity project would have been an exercise in empathy. Too bad no one took her up on it. It would have been interesting to have that person(s) report back what s/he faced as an "atheist."

[Modem Butterfly]

13. Actually, Selwyn of all people promised to try it if I send him a shirt

He PM'd me his address, size and everything. So this weekend I'll see if I can get the site to send him that shirt as a gift, and hopefully he'll have it in a week or so.

I can't say I expect much in the way of honest feedback though.

[Modem Butterfly]

12. What kills me is the idea that someone knows what it's like...

...without ever having been there.

I grew up an atheist in a small town, and I've been called a Satanist and a witch. But I would never dream of telling you I know what it's like to be a pagan.

I think Xians in particular have a persecution complex built into their belief system. Their rolemodel, Christ, was persecuted and executed, early Xians were persecuted, their Bible talks extensively about the blessings of suffering. For some, I think it's become a fetish, where he who suffers the most wins. What a crazy thing to get into a pissing contest over.

[trotsky]

15. Yeah except they don't want to *really* suffer.

Whereas their forebears got thrown in the lion pit, or locked in an iron maiden, or whatever it was those early Xians endured, today's version would much rather claim the "persecution" tag when they aren't allowed to pray over the loudspeaker at a high school football game, or post their version of the 10 Commandments in a courtroom.

[Modem Butterfly]

16. Persecution = not being able to force their beliefs down our throats

[Az]

17. Shoe on other foot time

Take a look at the world around us. Sure there is god coming out its every crevice. But so to is all sorts of science and reason that stand in opposition to some of these beliefs.

The world as some believers see it is not in compliance with the world described by science and us skeptics. To them (here is the twist) we are forcing our views on their minds. Our insistance that evolution is true and all other assaults on their beliefs.

In the face of these challenges they have three options. One of course is to accept that their beliefs are at odds with reality which really isn't much of an option for them.

The second is to retreat from the world of science and reason and form their own little isolated world. Not really a happy option. Particularly as they believe that it was their philosophical ancestors that founded and created this nation. Another problem is that science creeps up on things. There are fewer and fewer places to hide from its glaring gaze.

The third option is the Library of Alexandria gambit. Tear down the institutions that threaten them. Replace it with their own model of reason. This is the option the IDers and Creationists have chosen.

Belief is not something that can casually be discarded. It can quite easily overwhelm supposed reason and scientific thought. Within their minds they are reasonable. They "know" their bible and doctrine are true. Reality must comform to it. If the scientists are coming up with explanations that don't jibe with their view of reality then the scientists must be doing something wrong. It is easier to discard them and their claims than it is to discard their belief.

They will fight to survive. Science and reason are destroying them. Really. A cornered animal fights all the harder to survive. It may simply be that this fundamentalist surge we are seeing is merely the death rattle of their unbending form of belief.

[YankeyMCC]

18. Now there's optimism! :)

[onager]

19. Good effort, Modem B.!

Thanks. I read thru the whole thread, over there in the other group.

And my sympathies on being stuck in Atlanta. I grew up next door in SC and have relatives in Atlanta. At least you're not in some place like Toccoa or Albany.

What makes me laugh is the apparent definition of "persecution" by modern Xians. Sometimes I think persecution is defined as "the very existence of atheists, agnostics, and Off-Brand Religions. The NERVE of these people!" A sort of Scarlett O'Hara Theology....(to stick with the Georgia state theme).

Shit, even my Baptist ancestors faced drowning in Lake Geneva by the Calvinists. Persecution, my butt!

This is probably disjointed and non-sensical. Sorry, Jesus forced me to drink a lot of vodka tonight. "For the stomach's sake," as I believe St. Paul advised in one of his rare lucid moments...

[fshrink]

20. Use your "God Detector".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=263&topic_id=1774

Next time you feel like having a "normal conversation" with a believer rabid enough to proselitize on DU, ask your device the question. You'll have 100% success rate.