Tell me how I'm different than an evangelical Christian

[gollygee]

Please!

My daughter and I were at a playgroup and an evangelical Christian friend had brought a bunch of children's bible stories with her. She suggested I read one to my daughter, and I looked through one but I thought it was violent and I didn't agree with the ethical issues in it - it was about Noah's Ark and talked about how god thought the world was full of sinners and so he killed everyone. I don't like the story, and beyond that I think it teachers an unethical lesson and is presented in a manner that isn't age appropriate. Plus it's written as if it's true history.

So my friend started reading her a story about Samson. Yes, after I told her I didn't want her to have these books read to her. I'm not up on bible stories, but it became clear this was about war and it was violent and presented war in a positive light. I took my daughter away from her, which of course led to a discussion.

She thinks I'm wrong to not expose my daughter to bible stories. Obviously I don't agree, and I told her that she might not understand that if you take religious belief away from those stories you're left with violence and ethical problems.

But this got me to thinking. My daughter has a book about different kinds of families. One part says something like, "Some families have a mommy and a daddy, and some families have just a mommy or a daddy, and some families have two mommies or two daddies." I imagine my friend wouldn't like it if I read this book to her kid. But I would *like* to and I think he *should* be exposed to books like that and that sentiment.

So how am I different? Isn't it true that I'm "evangelical" in my own way - just about different issues? I suppose the proper answer is for me to avoid books about two mommies and two daddies around her kid, and she should avoid books about bible stories around mine. But that just seems odd in my mind. I think I'm right and she's wrong. I'm sure she thinks she's right, and I'm wrong and probably warped and raising my daughter wrong too! LOL

Why is it OK for me to feel evangelical about some issues, but then get offended when she evangelizes to my daughter?

[YankeyMCC]

1. In this case

I think you felt like someone was attempting to preach to your child and subvert your teaching. On a case-by-case basis sometimes a person can cross a line between exposing your child to something new and pushing a belief on them. You clearly felt like this person crossed that line.

However, I have to say that I don't keep my son away from bible stories. Even ones I think are bad stories (which are many particularly in the Old Testament.) I know he's going to hear them, they are - like it or not - an important literary component to our history and culture. So I know I have to make sure what I teach him is strong and I make sure he has what he needs to make decisions on his own. Of course while he's still young, he can't make all the decisions, so I also ensure I'm aware of when and how he is exposed to these stories and I follow up with my own discussion with him afterwards.

I’ve gone so far as to tell my mother she needs to tell me when the subject of god and heaven come up when she’s alone with him. I don’t tell her she can’t talk about what she believes but I make it clear it is for me and my wife to guide what and how he is exposed to things.

[gollygee]

4. I don't think I'll mind her hearing bible stories

as she gets older. She's not quite 3 yet. But the stories would have to be age-appropriate and not presented in an evangelical manner.

My friend said, "These stories are in rhyme, which is great because they really remember them. If you read them enough, the kids will remember them forever!" This was clearly not just reading a story.

Of course a book that explains different kids of families isn't just a story either. It is also trying to push a message.

[YankeyMCC]

7. I think this is key..

when your friend said: "These stories are in rhyme, which is great because they really remember them. If you read them enough, the kids will remember them forever!"

She's (or he) obviously looking to subvert what you are teaching your own child. I think she crossed the line from just exposing your child to different ideas to pushing her beliefs on you and your child.

That's the difference. You are willing to expose your children to other ideas, age apropriately, evangelicals are not. Both sides get upset when they feel someone is pushing their ideas on you or trying to subvert how you raise your children.

[Az]

2. The desire to share one's views with others is natural

Its how our society is formed. Its part and parcel with how we establish the society we thrive in.

Yes its a good thing to be tolerant and open of other people's beliefs. But this doesn't mean you should hide your's under a bushel or something.

If you don't represent and make your thinking known then the forms of thinking that do encourage presenting it to the world will simply dominate and take over.

We make the world we live in.

[gollygee]

6. So if I get you right . . .

you're saying it's ok on both of our parts to evangelize?

[Az]

8. The key difference is a question of tactics

I advocate speaking out about one's beliefs. Not using it as a club to beat others down with. Too often what happens is an evangelist uses their beliefs as a means of condemning another. There is a way to speak of one's beliefs without assailing another's beliefs.

[Lars39]

3. I think the difference is

You want your child to be broad-minded and compassionate.
You're teaching/condoning a positive.
The fundy is teaching/condoning a negative;
violence and intolerance.

I gave some 'fat' books to my toddler niece, and the parents,
southern baptist missionaries, had to look them over before they
would read them to the niece.
Yet they think nothing of giving my kids religious books. :crazy:

[gollygee]

5. But what is positive and what is negative

I mean, in her view, the bible stories are positive and the story about different kinds of families is negative. From her point of view, I must be doing the exact same thing I think she's doing.

I'm still having to wrap my head around it.

[Lars39]

9. Violence and intolerance

for the most part are almost always negative.
Rooting for justice is definitely a positive. :)

It's fine if she thinks you're 'evangelizing',
it puts the relationship on a more even footing,
letting her realize that there
ARE other viewpoints in the world,
and that a lot of those viewpoints have nothing
whatsoever to do with the bible,
and everything to do with treating our
fellow man compassionately.

One of the problems with having kids is that
there seems to be less time to actually think;
so much of our time as parents seems to be reacting. :)

I wish I'd had more of my personal philosophies hammered out
when my kids were younger, it would have made things a lot easier.

[Taxloss]

10. Samson is a horrible story.

Violence, betrayal, cruelty, slavery, suffering, vegenance without forgiveness, an ending so bleak it's almost nihilistic.

[gollygee]

16. I didn't hear that much of it

but I saw a picture of him on a hill with (I think) a sword killing people. In a board book intended for toddlers. Do people think that a story being in the bible means it gets a free pass as far as considering whether it's appropriate for a certain age group? What the heck is up with that?

[opiate69]

11. Here's the difference:

The book you wish to expose her child to is factual. There really are families with 2 mommies, or 2 daddies, or 1 of each, or whatever. The stories she wishes to expose your child to are fictitious, and as you have pointed out, are not age-appropriate. I think that children who read the book your daughter has are going to be much better equipped to live in the "real world", as opposed to the kinds of people who attend places like Bob Jones University.

[gollygee]

17. Thanks

Yes, there are families with two mommies and two daddies. Though there are still people who think it isn't *really* a family unless . . . :eyes: You know the "marriage = stick figure + stick figure in dress" folks. So what is fact and what is fiction? I feel the bible stories are fictious but they feel they're fact.

[opiate69]

24. Again though, your "facts" are provable..

and as far as what constitutes a "family", the idea that it must only be a heterosexual couple, with offspring, is so ethnocentric it's funny. Anybody who has spent more than a few hours in an anthropology class, or who has travelled outside of the US and observed different cultures, would quickly and vociferously destroy that particular fallacy.

If I may quote a very good article by a Washington State University Professor of Anthropology:

"It is true that virtually every society in the world has an institution that is very tempting to label as “marriage,” but these institutions simply do not share common characteristics. Marriage in most societies establishes the legitimacy or status rights of children, but this is not the case, for example, among the Navajo where children born to a woman, married or not, become full legitimate members of her matriclan and suffer no disadvantages. “Marriage” around the world most often involves heterosexual unions, but there are important exceptions to this. There are cases of legitimate same-sex marriages as, for example, woman-woman marriage among the Nuer and some other African groups. Here, a barren woman divorces her husband, takes another woman as her wife, and arranges for a surrogate to impregnate this woman. Any children from this arrangement become members of the barren woman’s natal patrilineage and refer to the barren woman as their father. Among some Native American groups, males who preferred to live as women (berdache) adopted the names and clothing of women and often became wives of other men."

The full thesis can be found here: http://www.aaanet.org/press/an/0405if-comm4.htm

[Zenlitened]

12. If I understand correctly, she read bible stories to your child...

... even AFTER you specifically told her not to.

Whereas you have refrained from reading "Two Mommies" types of stories to her child, because you sense -- without having to be told -- that she would disapprove.

That's the difference right there.

It seems to me that you are not an evangelical, you are simply a person with a point of view. And a sense of common courtesy to go with it! :)

[gollygee]

18. Well, thanks, but I have to admit

I'd have a hard time resisting reading some open-minded books if I were watching this kid. I would resist it I suppose but I wouldn't want to.

[intheflow]

13. If you brought "Heather Has Two Mommies" to playgroup

and attempted to read it to her child, you'd be like her. What values you teach your children in your home is one thing--for both hher family and yours. You might explain it to her that way. I'd definately use the two mommies example with her so that she'll understand that you have different notions about age appropriate materials.

I would like to echo the idea that you expose her to some elements of Christianity, for culture sake. For example, a woman in my church told me the story that her daughter had gone all through the UU religeous ed program, but at age 17 she was at a funeral for a relative and couldn't recite The Lord's Prayer along with everyone else in the church. The daughter felt alienated from her own family and heritage because everyone--even her atheist parents--were able to share that grief aloud and in unison. It's kind of a cultural Catch-22.

[gollygee]

19. I don't know the lord's prayer

and I've never felt alienated over it. I don't think I'd be comfortable praying with people in any circumstance. I don't expect she won't be exposed to Christianity - frankly where we live that's impossible anyway. But I won't be teaching her prayers anytime soon.

[intheflow]

22. No reflection on how you chose to parent.

I was just offering an example from my own experience. :hi:

[displacedtexan]

14. If you believe in the Ark & the flood (as punishment), then you have to...

believe that present day weather phenomena are the god of Abraham's punishments.

I always told my daughter that "some people" believed this stuff," but I didn't, and she didn't have to, either... unless she chose to believe it.

[gollygee]

20. I think that's what my parents told me

That some people believe bible stories, but they didn't and I didn't have to either, unless I chose to.

[fshrink]

15. Right and wrong

are relative notions, not absolute notions. Meaning that you can always find a particular set of circumstances where something can be right and another set of circumstances where the same thing ca be wrong. Your question implicitly assumes absolute, hence your "odd" feeling. If you consider, as I do, bible stories as stupid, dangerous and useless fairy-tales, then don't feed it to your children. That's your kid's set of circumstances, which you decide, and nobody else's. Besides, there are so many good, useful and intelligent stories out there!

[gollygee]

21. Yes that is exactly the odd feeling

She and I have completely different opinions about what is right and what is wrong as far as what we should expose our kids to. I want my daughter exposed to different kinds of families and I'd feel like maybe I wasn't raising her right if I avoided that. She wants her kid to be exposed to the bible and would feel like she wasn't raising him right if she avoided the bible.

The bible stories I know are not appropriate for children, and even for adults I question some of the ethical lessons. Plus, like you said, there are *so many* wonderful books in the world to choose from. Why choose that book?

[melv]

23. Presentation

I imagine your presentation would be different. With my fundie in-laws, they try to tell my children "this is fact" vs. "this is how we believe."

I imagine if your friend did not want you telling certain stories to her child and told you so, you would RESPECT her wishes as the child's PARENT and refrain.