Believers share their stories of why they believe.

[laconicsax]

http://www.thereprobablyis.com/

Some examples:

-I believe in God because...My daughter Sarah died after a long battle with cancer, Sarah was 16 years of age...
-I believe in God because...When i was thirteen I was raped at knife point...I realised that maybe God had put these things in my life for a reason!- although I wasn't sure why...
-I believe in God because of Jesus Christ. He was a real historical figure, with more evidence for his life than that of Julius Caesar.
-I believe in God because...from the age of about four years old I was sexually abused up until the age of about 12 years...

I am absolutely perplexed. There are stories on that site from people who believe because of childhood indoctrination, others because they felt that submission to Jesus was the catalyst for their life turning around, and still others because they believe that God answers their prayers. Those I can understand. I just don't get how the death of a child, rape, and sexual abuse can be a faith-affirming experiences.

[cosmik debris]

1. It is ironic

That every reason they have for believing could just as easily be used as a reason for disbelieving.

[phantom power]

2. I have a guess about why.

My guess is that the thought of experiencing those horrible things, and having it mean absolutely nothing, is too painful for them to consider. If you believe in a God Who Has A Plan For All Of Us, then you can hang your hat on that consolation. All that suffering happened for a reason, and someday we'll learn what that reason was.

[ihavenobias]

12. BINGO

That's exactly right. This is the same group that just loves to say that "everything happens for a reason" or "God doesn't give you anything you can't handle".

Both of those phrases annoy me but I think the second one is incredibly offensive in some cases. Imagine saying "God doesn't give you anything you can't handle" to that Austrian girl that was locked up in the basement for years and years and years (while being raped by her FATHER and having his children).

Really, that was part of God's plan? Anyone that believes that is sick.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3297136,00.html

[progressoid]

3. Interesting website name.

There probably is. Not, there definately is.

[moggie]

5. This IS the Church of England we're talking about

A vicar who insisted that God definitely exists would be dangerously radical.

But seriously, it's a reference to the atheist ad which ran on some London buses, and which began "THERE'S PROBABLY NO GOD". This obviously required a rapidvapid response from our Christians.

[progressoid]

6. Yeah, I noticed that too.

If it had been here in the States, it would have been more like, mygodwillmakeyouburninhell.com.

I had forgotten what was written on the busses. Makes more sense now.

[onager]

4. Must not rant...must not rant...

A-A-A-A-A!

I believe in God because of Jesus Christ. He was a real historical figure, with more evidence for his life than that of Julius Caesar.

Extant writings by Jesus Christ: none

Extant writings by Julius Caesar: Commentaries on the Gallic War and Commentaries on the Civil War.

Extant writings attributed to Jesus Christ: none

Attributed to Caesar but doubtful (possibly written by his secretaries--he always kept at least 2 with him): The Alexandria War, On the African War, On the Hispanic War.

Of course, we'd probably have a lot more of his writings if the Xians hadn't burned them. Speaking of that...

Usual Annoying and Tiresome Aside: Caesar's Alexandria War might have gotten him wrongly blamed for one of the worst disasters in Western history--the burning of the Alexandria Library.

Some ancient Xian writers claimed that Caesar wrote about burning "400,000" scrolls from the library. Apparently an extra zero got inserted and the number should have been 40,000.

Again from my faulty memory, Caesar made it clear that he didn't set fire to the Library. Outnumbered 10-to-1 by the Egyptian army and facing a disaster, his troops set fire to some Egyptian ships in Alexandria's Eastern Harbor. The fire spread to warehouses on the docks, where scrolls were stored while awaiting cataloging for the Library. Many of these were duplicates/triplicates/etc. of books already in the Library.

One of the Library's main functions was issuing definitive corrected texts. An expert in, say, Aristotle would gather all known versions of one work by him and compare them, editing out known forgeries, etc.

That was the reason for the interesting Customs procedures in Alexandria. Anyone entering the city with books had them seized. They were given a receipt and promised that the original scrolls would be returned, once a copy had been made for the scholars at the Library.

In practice, as you've already guessed, the book-lover usually got a copy returned and the Library kept the original.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Plus things like a bust of Julius Caesar made in his lifetime

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7402480.stm

and his centrality to Roman history as written at the time.

[dmallind]

15. Oh and the contemporary histories, the coins, and so on

But sure - exactly like Jesus.

[John Gauger]

8. I remember that claim.

In eighth grade I asked my Latin teacher why Caesar burned the library, and she said he did no such thing.

I also remember Sagan in "Cosmos" saying that they made copies of every book that entered the city. That's just badass.

[onager]

10. Ptolemy III was the REAL badass

There are several versions of how he conned Athens out of some priceless scrolls, but I like this one:

1. The library at Athens had ORIGINAL manuscripts by Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides.

2. Ptolemy III asked if he could copy them. Knowing his reputation, the Athenians turned him down flat.

3. He kept asking. To make him go away, the Athenians finally agreed to loan out the manuscripts if Ptolemy would put up a deposit of 15 silver talents. That was almost the entire national budget of Egypt for a year.

4. Ptolemy agreed immediately, forked over the literal king's ransom, and got the manuscripts.

5. While they were being copied, he had some of the Library workers carefully noting every stain, crease and fold in the originals.

6. He returned perfectly aged and weathered copies to Athens, got his deposit back, and kept the originals.

Another version says he returned copies, got caught, and forfeited the ransom. But I like the other, super-con version better.

[John Gauger]

11. That's fucking awesome.

I met a guy last year whose father was a Cuban dignitary who had been sent to Venezuela. This kid told me about the Cuban terrorist Orlando Bosch. This guy was in a Venezuelan prison for blowing up a Cuban airliner in the early '60s. He bribed a guard to sneak in priest's vestments. He put the robes on and walked right out the front door. But not before visiting the office and taking the warden's confession. If that's not badass, I don't know what is.

I told a Catholic friend this story, and she was scandalized - at the impersonating a priest part, not the blowing up a plane full of people part.

[enlightenment]

9. Now, now . . .

don't upset them with facts, Onager.

Life is 'nasty, brutish, and short' - remember? It sucks the big one, so they need to believe that it's all puppies and kittens and ice lollies after they die.

[MedleyMisty]

13. Thanks for the link!

Aww - I went and read the full story of the girl who was raped when she was 13. It sounds like what really happened is that she found a community where she felt she was wanted and cared about and that helped her heal.

Read the one with the daughter who died of cancer - again, it sounds like she doesn't have much if any support that's based in reality.

Here's an interesting one - note the bit in the green under the testimonial.

http://www.thereprobablyis.com/god-in-real-life/22-latest-testimonies/66-nancy.html

Same pattern - person has to deal with horrible stuff and doesn't have a support system IRL. Also, they're all female. Let's see if I can find some by guys.

Ah - here we go.

http://www.thereprobablyis.com/god-in-real-life/22-latest-testimonies/40-brian.html

Most of the other ones by guys seem to follow the same pattern - the drugs and drinking and all that and then some experience that turned them around. Not quite so much the lack of a support system as maybe the lack of self-esteem and internal structure.

I admit my first reaction was "Actually, you are stupid and brainwashed." But then I read some and found out that they weren't fundies but just people who didn't get the parental support they needed as kids or the emotional support they needed to get through personal tragedies so they turned to their imaginations for that support.

I guess that fundies are maybe like the hardcore version - I think that they are truly and deeply damaged. Almost every personal story of a fundie I've ever read included their father beating their cat or dog to death in front of them. My oldest half-brother is the only religious and right-wing person in my family - my mother divorced his father because he was abusive and did things like beat a calf to death with a two by four. And then when I was two and he was twelve he went back to live with his father.

This ties in to my posts in R/T lately about the whole defining a Christian/no true Scotsman thing.

You can't define a Christian by their beliefs. I really don't think that these people consciously decided to become Christians based on a universal set of beliefs that they somberly and sanely agreed with after reasoning about it for a while. I think it's a personal emotional need and they interpret the religion to fit the need.

As for me - I shall get down on my knees and thank my mother and my husband for their emotional support that allowed me to become and remain the healthy and based in reality person I am. And yes, interpret getting down on my knees to thank my husband however you like. ;)

[dmallind]

14. Faith is always an easier sell to the abused and oppressed

After all it's selling the idea that everythin will be all right for the virtuius, the meek, and the poor in the end but much more difficult for the unrightreous, the vain and the powerful.

The first shall be last is a great sell when you are targeting the last - people who have self esteem issues or who live seperate hard lives as victims of either great or ongoing injustice. The people who did that to them will burn for ever and they will have an eternity of bliss after a few decades of hard life.

No by the way nothing here states or implies that ALL believers are poor oppressed victims, merely that poor opporessed victims are easier targets for selling the idea of eternal salvation and punishment.