So about this new Harris poll...

[laconicsax]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/More-Americans-Believe-Devil-Hell/story.aspx?guid={9FF6758C-00C0-4673-81B9-6D506085F974}

Claims I've seen made in GD, R/T, or other forums on this site and elsewhere:

-Creationists constitute a very small minority of the population.
-Biblical literalists constitute a very small minority of the population.
-A minority of people believe that the Bible is the 'word of God.'

Results of this poll (most numbers are in line with other similar polls)

-Creationists make up 40% of the population
-Biblical literalists make up about 37% of the population
-People who believe that the Bible is the 'word of God:' 55% although, "only 26% of all adults believe that the Torah is the word of God, even though it is the same as the first five books of the Old Testament. Presumably many people do not know this.

Now, if you take into account that Christians tend to be counted as around 76% of the population, this would suggest (unless I did the math wrong) that 52% of Christians are creationists, 48% are Biblical literalists, and 72% believe the Bible to be the 'word of God.'

[trotsky]

1. Most Christians on DU that I have interacted with on religious topics...

seem to have very selective blinders on. They truly want to believe that the fundies, the loonies, the creationist numbnuts, are some tiny fringe minority who have "corrupted" their perfect religion. They even go so far as to dispute or just ignore all the evidence suggesting otherwise. The thread about this study in R/T is just another example in a long line of them showing the inability or unwillingness to accept real, rabid Christians exist in LARGE numbers.

"But it's not that way in *MY* church!" seems to be a common refrain. And eerily, their thinking seems to mirror that of the fundies - their church is the "true church" and everyone else has it wrong.

[laconicsax]

2. Too true

[ihavenobias]

3. A backhanded compliment?

These numbers seem very high to me. But on hold, my explanation will still piss off most Christians.

IME, the vast majority of Christians are half-assed about their faith. Most don't attend church, they don't pray regularly and of course they (fill in the blank with sin...lie, cheat, steal, etc.) just as much as non-theists do.

The closest they come to being Christian is a poorly defined notion that "there has to be something else". They believe largely out of convenience (everyone else is doing it, plus their parents told them it was the thing to do).

The average Christian on the street has barely even read the Bible. They generally can't even recite all 10 Commandments. But yes, when you *ask* them I'm sure they give what they think is the right and appropriate answer, which makes it seem like they are way more fundies than there actually are. Don't get me wrong, I agree that the half assed Christians dismiss the fundamentalists as a tiny fringe group. I think a more realistic number is 15-30%, not 50%+. But hey, that's still an insanely large amount of people.

What people claim to believe and what they actually believe (and practice) are often two very different things.

[laconicsax]

4. Polling consistently shows the number to be near 50%

http://www.gallup.com/poll/14107/Third-Americans-Say-Evidence-Has-Supported-Darwins-Evolution-Theory.aspx

It's true that most Christians have no clue what is contained in the Bible, though you can't fault them for not knowing the 10 Commandments--there are 2 different versions in the Torah, and Jesus could only name 5 or 6 (depending on the gospel). The fact remains that if about 75-76% of the population self-identify as Christian and 40% of the population states their acceptance of Creationism, then you have close to 50% of Christians being creationists even if you say that 100% of all Jews and Muslims are creationists (which isn't true), you still have 38% of the population identifying as creationists, or 50% of all Christians.

Then there's this:



'Not true' takes about 40%.

Also, Harris says this about why they use impersonal computer surveys:

Other research has shown that when replying to a question administered impersonally by a computer, people are less likely to say they believe in God, or attend Church services when they really don’t. It is generally believed that surveys conducted by live interviewers tend to exaggerate the numbers of people who report the socially desirable, or less embarrassing, behavior, and that the replies given to an online survey such as this, are more honest and therefore more accurate.

It seems that since their method seems to eliminate fraudulent answers to a degree, I accept their numbers until I see equally persuasive evidence to the contrary.

[awoke_in_2003]

6. Well look at that...

we are more accepting of scientific fact than Turkey. We should be proud :sarcasm:

[ihavenobias]

7. Let me rephrase

Are most of them uninformed/ignorant on these issues? IMO, yes.

Are most of them hard-core zealots (think Tony Perkins, James Dobson, etc.)? IMO, no, not even close.

The problem is that the majority, the half-assed people, are generally scared to *really* criticize the zealots, partly because it would force them to admit that some of what they believe is crazy and or completely illogical and counterproductive. So they enable the zealotry in some ways, or at least shield it from the scrutiny and criticism that is needed to defeat it.

[laconicsax]

13. We're talking about a voluntary, anonymous online survey.

Harris administers their surveys by an impersonal medium (anonymous online response) to reduce the number of people answering based on what they think they 'should' think as opposed to what they actually think. I posted as much above.

Polling consistently shows that roughly 50% of Christians are creationists. You can look at this one of two ways:

(1)This number is a result of 50% of Christians agreeing with any of the following statements:

-God created the earth and everything on it in it's present form less than 10,000 years ago.
-The Bible is the literal word of God.
-The account of creation in Genesis is 100% accurate. (6 24-hour days.)
-The Bible and its contents are completely true.
-Creationism is the correct model of how things came to be.

(2)This number is a result of a majority of that 50% responding that they agree with the above statements because they all feel that they are the only socially acceptable answer to give and that the following statements are not socially acceptable:

-God created the earth and everything on it in it's present form more than 10,000 years ago.
-The Bible is inspired by God, but not God's direct words.
-The account of creation in Genesis is accurate, but not 100% accurate (Days not necessarily 24-hours.)
-The Bible and its contents are mostly true.
-Evolution is a process that is guided by God.
-Creationism is mostly correct, but incomplete.

Of course we could just be agnostic about the whole thing and just say that polls are useless because you can never know for certain that anyone is telling the truth, but the first explanation seems the most likely to me and I will accept it as valid until I see evidence contradicting it.

[ihavenobias]

14. I know but

like I said in another response in this thread, it can't be anonymous when God is involved. If you even half believe that he sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, he knows when you've been bad or good...you get the idea.

On the general point that far too many people believe irrational and ultimately counterproductive things, we completely agree, you know that. I'm just factoring in these specific poll results with the fact that the vast majority of Christians seem to be very half-assed about their beliefs.

In fact, often times the only way you'd ever know that they're Christians or theists is when you ask them if they believe in God. They say "yes" and go on behaving like your typical non-theist.

[laconicsax]

15. These are the same people who get offended if you say

that God convicts people for thought-crime.

[moggie]

5. It's not just convenience

In a society which largely believes that "religious" implies "good", and which frowns on boastfulness, identifying yourself as religious is a socially acceptable form of self promotion. And with modern western Christianity being so easy and low-maintenance, it's an attractive option for people who want approval without working hard for it. In countries where Christianity is not regarded as a guarantor of virtue, Christians are much less likely to advertise (I've worked with Christians for years before discovering that they were religious).

[ihavenobias]

8. I know it's not JUST convenience

It's convenience AND comfort. Very comforting to think that no one *really* dies, and that if you're "good" according to a specific set of rules, that you'll play harps in the clouds and see grandma and grandpa and mom and dad and so on.

And I can't fault people for *wanting* to believe that, but understanding why that want to do it doesn't justify it (but you knew that).

Sure, it's also true that most people equate religious with good. That's part of why these surveys are skewed in favor of religion/creationism. So what if they're confidential, if you have even the slightest belief that God *might* be watching your every move, HE knows what you said on that survey, and maybe he'll be pissed if you say you don't believe in creationism, angels, etc.

Is that ridiculous? Sure. Could it influence survey answers? Of course.

[skepticscott]

11. And social acceptability

There are lots of people who don't really, deeply believe all the tenets of the religion they ostensibly belong to, and may even think it's a little silly, but they drag their asses out of bed on Sunday and get dolled up, because its what respectable white suburban folk do. They talk about church suppers and first communion and confirmation with other people like them because the want to avoid the stigma of even seeming to be an atheist, or just a non-churchgoer.

[ihavenobias]

12. Right.

Plus it's like a fun club/social network for them.

[FiveGoodMen]

9. They vote the way they answer questions, though.

You're right about them not really living up (down?) to their own stated principles, but I think that they vote according to their nominal beliefs just like they answer survey questions that way.

I which case we're still all screwed because of them.

[ihavenobias]

10. It depends

On gay marriage yes, but on stem cell research no. Abortion is somewhere in the middle leaning towards no, and I'm not sure where physician assisted suicide is.

I'm of course referring to all US Christians here, not just social conservatives (who are always going to vote against choice and progress).

But yes, sometimes moderates feel obligated to vote more conservatively, on that I completely agree.