It sure is getting crowded under this bus.

[cosmik debris]

With the decision to give Rick Warren a voice at the inaugural hoopla, a lot of people suddenly realized that Obama really was pandering to the Religious Right all along.

And that Obama really would throw "liberal Christians" under the bus.

Oh well.

[charlie]

1. One thread starter

has already decided some of the outrage was coming from hidden-agenda atheists, the "anti-Christian", "anti-religion" crowd.

What's the atheist analog to gaydar? Whatever it is, his is pegging.

[cosmik debris]

3. I thought the atheists were the least outraged.

We've been under the bus for a long time. It is the ones who weren't expecting it who are all twisted in knots.

I have to confess to a little guilty pleasure watching them squirm.

I wonder if this will be the catalyst that makes the moderates stand up to the extremists?

[dmallind]

6. I'm not exactly a shy atheist and I could not give a toss.

Obama's a believer. A preacher is fashionable at these events, and expected. Warren's a popular one. No biggy. I've never been one to worry too much about trappings of religion like that. If he made Warren AG or SCOTUS then yes I'd be a tad irked to say the least, but waltzing into town for one show and then buggering off again? Not sure why it's a big deal.

[moggie]

7. But of all the preachers he could have chosen...

Obviously it would be better not to have any of this mumbo-jumbo at the ceremony, but if he had to have a preacher, why pick one who is so controversial, and whose inclusion would be guaranteed to piss off a lot of people who have just worked their butts off to get him elected? It does look like a big symbolic "fuck you". Not an auspicious start.

[dmallind]

9. True enough - but remember

this event is a lot of pomp and crowd-pleasing ceremony. A celebrity preacher with an Oprah-cult following fits that bill better than some doctrinally sound liberal theologian. Sure Rick Warren has some wrongheaded opinions but I'm sure if we scrutinized every participant in this event there would be others. Again if this were an official position or enduring influence I would have a problem - but I've never bought into the idea that politicians should make sure everyone they meet is spotlessly clean and ideologically sound or they somehow take on or even condone the negative traits of those who they speak with or meet with. When Obama says "Rick Warren speaks for me" I'll jump on the outrage wagon, but not before.

[PassingFair]

37. Big talker in here...

try saying that in GD or GDP....

I dare ya!

:)

[dmallind]

43. Do a quick search and you'll find I have.

I'm even a bi gay too. I still don;t give a toss. I can see how OTHERS might sure, but doesn't mean I have to.

[PassingFair]

44. I'm sarcastizin' you.

:applause:

[dmallind]

45. Cool. Missed that sorry. Usually do.

I rarely even bother noticing who is posting an opinion as I just respond to opinions with mine, so it always surprises me when people seem to recognize others (me included - and I'm hardly a DU mainstay by any stretch) from various threads.

I think there's maybe three or four posters I recognize wherever I go, mostly because of recognizable sig line photos or particularly strident single minded issue advocacy or both. 95% of the time it's very probable I'm agreeing with somebody in one forum and calling their opinions utterly invalid in another.

[PassingFair]

46. I don't see too many emotional arguments in here...

Perhaps because none of us come here to
engage in faith-based emotional arguments...

Once one stops defending the indefensible,
the tone of the disagreement changes and
personal preferences can be discussed.

Not that we can't get into bloody arguments
about the behavior of PEOPLE!!!

:P

[Odin2005]

50. My view on the whole thing is pretty much the same. n/t

I like your sig line, BTW!

[immoderate]

17. I think it neuters Warren with his base.

With Warren participating in Obama's inauguration, it mitigates any opposition he might offer in the future. I think it takes down the right wing.

It may be a brilliant move on Obama's part.

--IMM

[moggie]

19. Well... maybe

TBH, though, I'm not convinced. At best, it takes one slimeball preacher out of the game, but, like whack-a-mole, there are plenty more.

I'll say this, though: it's amazing to see so many former supporters basically giving up on Obama before he even has his feet under the desk. I expected that DU wouldn't be awash in complaints until February, other than from die-hard Clinton supporters. In my defence, in '92 and '96 I wasn't paying close attention to US politics, so I didn't know what to expect.

[immoderate]

21. I think there's little downside to this. Warren is making a cameo appearance.

Our work is when the policy time comes. That's when we'll have to lean on Obama. I expect there will be plenty to complain about.

It will be interesting to see how DU functions with a Democratic administration. We weren't around during Clinton. I'm afraid we might feel more powerless with a politician like Obama.

As for Warren, I think he is a key player for them. Putting him up front now may yield some returns. I don't see a down side, politically speaking that is. (Yes his presence offends me too.)

--IMM

[cosmik debris]

23. The down side is that the preacher can steal the message

On Obama's big day. If he mentions GLBT issues or abortion in his "prayer", that will make him the story of the day when it is truly Obama's day. This is not an opportunity you want to give to a loose cannon.

[immoderate]

28. Very long shot. He's there to lead a prayer.

I'm sure he would have it cleared in advance. I don't think he's crazy that way.

--IMM

[cosmik debris]

30. You're probably right

But preachers tend to be seekers of the limelight.

And I doubt that Obama would have the nerve to demand editorial approval of the prayer.

[charlie]

31. One thing Warren's usually good at

is finessing the troglodyte side of his religion. He knows how to waltz around hotbutton issues unloading irrelevant homilies like chaff and smoke, and come off as friendly^TM and harmless^TM.

I wouldn't be surprised if his benediction turns out to be a syrupy melange of universal tolerance that leaves a bunch here cooing.

[cosmik debris]

32. The preacher already won the first battle.

He has been the "story of the day" for a couple of days now.

So, instead of discussing important policy decisions, we are discussing the preacher.

The score is 1-nil and it's the preacher's game to lose.

[charlie]

33. Yeah, I'll bet he's soaking it up

Tomorrow though, he'll be speaking at a convention of Muslims. This after the gaffe about the biblicality of whacking Ahmadinejad. Juan Cole will be there, too. If anyone can harsh Warren's day, it's Cole. I hope there'll be video.

[beam me up scottie]

38. That's what so scary about him, not only is he wildly popular and mega rich,

he makes the unthinkable sound reasonable.

[charlie]

39. He's certainly good at it

Yesterday, I thought Juan Cole would de-bone him like a Church's 3-piece. Today, Juan's a groupie:

http://www.juancole.com/2008/12/rick-warren-i-love-muslims-i-happen-to.html

(If anyone thinks I'm exaggerating, read the whole piece) Warren even phoned Melissa Etheridge beforehand and somehow schmoozed her out of cracking his skull at the event.

This bit from Cole is blatant, hamhanded Warren diversion (I'M the victim and shame on y'all for acting like uncivilized rabble). Somehow, some-fucking-how, it worked:

Warren also talked about the increasing rudeness and rancor of public life in the United States, and urged greater civility and willingness to work with people across the spectrum of opinion. He said, "We can disagree without being disagreeable." He also made a point of saying that al-Qaeda is no more representative of Islam than the KKK is of Christianity. Contrast that to the sorts of things Mike Huckabee or Rudi Giuliani said during the presidential campaign.

[beam me up scottie]

40. Wow. What a boy scout.

This guy seriously wants to conquer the world, it would be foolish to dismiss him.

[charlie]

41. Boy Scouts shouldn't lie

Elsewhere in his interview, though, Warren explicitly affirmed his support for the separation of church and state. "In the first place I happen to agree with Constitution, that there should be no religious test." Warren said. "When I go to a doctor, I don't ask that surgeon if he's a Christian or not. I just want to know if he's a good surgeon. ... We're not electing a United States pastor. We're electing a United States president. So I believe there should not be a religious test. But on the other hand, everybody has a world view. A Christian has a world view. ... Even an atheist has a world view. And so faith is just a world view. So it's very appropriate for us to understand 'what is the faith, or what is the world view of the people who lead us?'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/10/rick-warren-sarah-palin-c_n_125420.html

Too bad Rick Warren isn’t so open-minded. After his over-hyped and intrusive interviews of Obama and John McCain this last August, the best-selling author of A Purpose-Driven Life disclosed to his congregation at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Ca., the one kind of person he couldn’t vote for. "I could not vote for an atheist because an atheist says, 'I don’t need God,'" Warren preached, according to the Los Angeles Times. "They're saying, 'I'm totally self-sufficient by (myself).' And nobody is self-sufficient to be president by themselves. It's too big a job."

http://secularright.org/wordpress/?p=933

Most are smart enough to stop at "no religious test", that's enough to cover their hypocritical butts. Not him, though. He wants you to know he's your friend. Good Ol' Rick. He neither cares, nor does he want to know if you're a Christian. Except he does. When he thinks you're not looking.

[beam me up scottie]

47. "I could not vote for an atheist because an atheist says, 'I don't need God,'" Warren preached"

After all the lousy advice God gave Bush, you would think an atheist (or any freethinker) would be preferable.

[awoke_in_2003]

48. That line got me, too...

mainly because I feel sorry for people who do need a god.

[beam me up scottie]

49. Just replace "God" with "Binky" and you've captured their desperation.

Remember we are responsible for kicking their God out of public schools, too.

Who knew godless commie pinkos were so powerful?

[JNelson6563]

51. But look what happened to Wright

He got the limelight, acted like an asshole and was summarily cut off. I don't know that this other preacherman is quite that stupid.

Julie

[FiveGoodMen]

34. Obama's just keeping his powder dry?

[Warpy]

14. Warren is a typical right wing closet queen

who's hiding his own gay tendencies behind the cross.

He despises gays and by extension anything female.

Picking that sack of shit for the invocation was a slap in the face to good Christians, to women, to gays, and to everybody else in the country who hasn't bought into the prosperity theology and bigotry preached in Warren's megachurch.

He's scum.

[John Gauger]

2. Does it really matter that much?

I'm way more pissed over his appointing Wall Street criminals to run our economy. Obama was funded from the very beginning by Wall Street. If not for their dirty money, we never would have heard of him in the first place. McCain made him look like a godsend in comparison, but the gloss is starting to wear away. I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed. On the Zinn-Chomsky-Nader axis, he's more of the same.

OTOH, it would certainly be nice if he didn't waste all our time with that religious bullshit. What's the fucking point? And it does certainly matter who is included in our society. Why should such a hateful voice be given an endorsement like that?

[cosmik debris]

4. This is hardly the worst thing Obama has done

to the liberal wing of the party.

And the atheists knew it was coming.

[frebrd]

35. You'd better believe we knew.......

After all his bleating about "faith" during the campaign, it was inevitable. I've had zero confidence that the separation between religion and government would be restored. This only reinforces that conviction.

[enlightenment]

5. We still get the comfy seats though, right?

I have to admit that while Warren is a complete and utter TOOL, I was more let down by reading that Obama has tagged another pastor to bracket the ceremony.

Too much to hope for a reading from Hume? I'll settle for a few pithy quotes . . .

'The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one'.

'Every wise, just, and mild government, by rendering the condition of its subjects easy and secure, will always abound most in people, as well as in commodities and riches'.

'Avarice, the spur of industry'.

edited for stupidity

[curse10]

8. I'm just irritated

that a pastor or religious idiot of any kind is involved with the inauguration. The fact that it is Rick Warren is slightly more irritating, but not really surprising. I fucking hate this "reach across the aisle" BS.

[WillParkinson]

10. I have no problem with reaching across the aisle...

If you want to find a common ground with people. It's how we avert wars and other conflicts in our lives.

What I do have issue with is giving center-stage to hypocrisy and blatant homophobia.

If Mr. Obama wanted to have a talk with Mr. Warren to try to find common ground on something they would be able to work together on (non-religious, of course) I would applaud it, even though I'm an atheist. But giving him an opportunity such as this merely enforces the belief that they are right.

[cosmik debris]

12. Will he pray or will he preach?

If he uses this opportunity to blast Abortionists and Homos, some stuff will surely hit the fan!

It may turn out to be Obama's first lesson in "Dance with the one that brought you".

I had planned to mute the invocation, but now I actually want to hear what this creep has to say.

[Rob H.]

11. I have to wonder whether the religious DUers saying

"It's just a two-minute speech!" would be saying that if Obama had chosen an anti-science, misogynistic homophobe like James Dobson to give the invocation. There would probably be heads exploding at the mere mention of it, but here's one thing they don't seem to realize: except for Warren's not-quite-as-batshit-insane image, he and Dobson are essentially the same person.

FTR, I'm getting awfully tired of people running for office having to pander to the religious wackaloons. I know the day an openly atheist candidate will be elected president is a long way off (assuming that day ever comes) and most candidates don't have a snowball's chance in Bermuda of getting elected otherwise, but still.

Edited for clarity.

[ihavenobias]

13. We're all tired of the pandering to religious wackaloons.

Very tired.

[Goblinmonger]

15. Did I stir the shitpot in GD too much? n/t

[cosmik debris]

16. What a silly question!

How could you ever stir that shitpot too much?

[ihavenobias]

24. I'm not sure what you're specifically referring to but

I do know that if you question any aspect of religion (even if you go out of your way to try and be respectful) in GD you're pretty much guaranteed to piss someone off.

And at some point variations of the words "intolerant" and "bigot" will be used. At least it sure seems that way.

[cosmik debris]

25. That was my point.

If you are standing waist deep in a septic tank, it doesn't matter whether or not it is stirred.

[Goblinmonger]

26. I started a thread in GD

which was a little sarcastic and satirical in tone (a big shock, I know).

Not trying to rally the troops but to provide a reference
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4674981

[ihavenobias]

29. Thanks for the link. n/t

[trotsky]

42. That's a good thread, GM.

No surprise that it was shat upon by the usual suspects.

[TechBear_Seattle]

18. What do you mean? There is PLENTY of room!

[Joe the Liberal]

20. Lol....

That's a great toon, but its true to some extent.

[cosmik debris]

22. Very good! Thank you. n/t

[Evoman]

27. This fucking shit is making me sick, even though I completely expected it..

There are plenty of DUers who are gay and atheist...so this shit is like a double slap in the face, and I feel really bad for them.

People need to be more cynical...if you're like me, hating and distrusting every person who tries to be your "leader", then your pretty safe from the shock of these sort of decisions.

[and-justice-for-all]

36. It is his idea of trying to give to all sides...

but some should not be given any recognition for the hate they sell.