So, how do aths/ags feel about end of life?

[Synnical]

http://www.finalexitnetwork.org/

Our Goals:

To serve people who are suffering intolerably from an irreversible condition which has become more than they can bear.
To foster research to find new peaceful and reliable ways to self-deliver.
To promote the use of advance directives.
To advocate for individuals when their advance directives are not being honored.
We believe the needs of those who are suffering are paramount.
We applaud the work of organizations that seek legislative action to strengthen our right to die a peaceful and painless death at the time and place of our choosing. However, we feel that legislative change will not come soon enough for the many people who need help NOW and in the interim!

We will serve many whom other organizations may turn away. The Exit Guide program of Final Exit Network accepts members with cancer, ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease), Parkinson's disease, Multiple Sclerosis, Muscular Dystrophy, Alzheimer's disease, congestive heart failure, emphysema, and other incurable illnesses.

We also will support research on methods of self deliverance.

[vixengrl]

1. I've thought about it--I'm not afraid of death but dying.

I appreciate the "death with dignity" approach because it is a personal choice, but as for myself, I'm not ready to go. My reservations look like this:

I had just posted....that I am afraid of death. Well, I said timor mortis conturbat me, but if you know a little Latin you know what I was on about, or like myself, picked up on this phrase in some grand old poem (Rexroth's Thou Shalt Not Kill is grand). But really, if I'm an atheist, why should I fear death?

I dunno. The translation of the phrase is, "The fear of death disturbs me." I guess the fear of death does disturb me; if I am actually gone and have ceased to be and all that's left of me is the organic remains which may be buried, burned, or eaten for all I should care, oh, and some odd MB adrift on the immortal internets of my blather both serious and not, I shouldn't at that point feel any particular way about my condition, that apparatus through which I feel having quit working. But I do persist in feeling some way about whether I live or die. And I do so like to pick at these peculiarities in my skull.

The pagans who had many gods but came to worship them less, left us this: Nothing to hold onto in Life, nothing to fear in death. But I don't suppose the average ancient wouldn't have defended his life, not mourned the passing of others.

Is it evolutionary--an imperitive from our genes to our brains that makes us cling to the mortal coil for all its' worth? You'd think, but I don't know that its so. It makes sense that a species should survive to reproduce, but a whole lot of suicides are of adolescents who haven't. I know that's just anecdotal, but it doesn't feel right to me, somehow. The young either don't think they'll ever die, or they rush to it. A paradox.

So, I wracked my brain to see if I knew what it was about death I found particularly unpleasant--and not the "getting dead" bits, which are rather unpleasant and may involve voiding of bladder and bowels and ungainly postures and massive hemorrages and clinically nasty business. What I've got so far:

1) My social life will not recover. True, there will be one larger-than-average party and it's to be expected people will drink to my name, but after that I do not expect much in the way of companionship and visits to whatever remains of my...remains will undoubtedly taper off.

2) I will miss something. I have come to view life largely as a spectacle for me to take in, experience, think about and learn from. I don't think anyone can help but have a somewhat self-centered view of the world, having only his or her own outlook to see the world through. So if I'm dead and not here to continue enjoying everything--

What's it still going on for? I know it will, and I feel a bit cheated. It's like having the finale episode of your favorite serial pre-empted, and never knowing exactly how it resolved. Very trying.

3) People will talk. I have found that the epigrammatic "Speak no ill of the dead" is more honored in the breech than in the observance. My reputation will endure, but I will have no content-control.

Vain reasons, but mine.

http://vixenstrangelymakesuncommonsense.blogspot.com/2008/07/ironic-fear-of-death.html

[enlightenment]

2. Lovely post, vixen!

I absolutely agree - particularly with reason number two. It is an utterly irrational feeling but utterly true for all that.

[onager]

9. I agree with both of you on that.

One of my favorite jokes on the subject: I just know I'm going to die right in the middle of reading a really good book.

Overall, I like the view of that famous troublemaker Epicurus: "Death is nothing to us."

As I understand it, he certainly didn't mean that in the usual religious sense of "death does not exist because afterwards, we are going to sit on a cloud with the angels."

He meant (among other weighty philosophical...stuff) that we can't truly experience death, since life is lived thru the senses. When life stops, the senses stop and we don't know anything beyond that. So it's irrational to sit around worrying about something of which you can have absolutely no experience, when you could be enjoying the life you have.

I think he also put the question another way I've always liked: "When we were in our mother's womb, we knew nothing but oblivion and it didn't worry us. When we die, we just go back to oblivion. So there's no reason to worry about that side of the trip, either."

[funflower]

18. Since you are ALWAYS reading a good book, I'm sure that's true.

Guess you'd better read the really good ones fast. :)

[moggie]

20. Are you sure that wasn't Eric Idle?

"Always look on the bright side of life.
I mean - what have you got to lose?
You know, you come from nuffing,
you're going back to nuffing.
What have you lost? Nuffing!"

[tbyg52]

4. Same here.

I'm not all that attached to life right now (hoping that might improve before I *do* kick the bucket).

But I sure don't want to go in a lot of pain and fear, if it can be helped.

[ihavenobias]

10. Exactly. It's not death that's scary, it's disease and the breaking down of the mind and body.

Death just means it's like it was before I was born.

But a painful health condition? Or Alzheimer's? Or the embarrassment and something like urinary incontinence? I admit THOSE things scare the shit out of me. The loss of my ability to function and living in pain...being a burden and source of stress to those around me.

All of that is about a million times scarier than generically dying, at least to me.

[Warpy]

6. My mother is an example of death with dignity

My dad had supplied her with enough sleeping pills to do the job. She then was able to relax, knowing the way out was there if it got too hard for her. She never used them. I gave her plenty of pain medicine and other comfort meds during her last couple of weeks and her passing was as easy as it ever is.

Dignity is knowing the process is always in your control, within your reach should you choose to terminate it early.

[lizerdbits]

7. Similar to my grandmother

She was at home and in the last days refused food and water. She was in so much pain at that point that force feeding her would have just been cruel to make her go on. She was almost 90, and doctors said they didn't think any improvement was likely so they just kept her as comfortable as possible, replaced her pain med patches and let things happen.

Personally I think people should be allowed to control their death when terminally ill and in pain. While my grandmother was very religious and quite possibly disagreed, but in a way she did control it by refusing food and water, though there's no way to be sure if she would have been hospitalized how long she would have "lived." And once you're in the hospital, trying to "unplug" someone is a legal nightmare I hope I never have to deal with.

[Warpy]

8. I know what you mean

and 25 years in nursing taught me to address the subject formally the minute my dad said he was tired and wanted to go. At that point I thought he had great rehab potential, but he was the boss and I didn't want to live in his hospital room, planning to trip the code team if they happened to rush in.

It was a good thing I did because he said he wanted to go and he went.

[dropkickpa]

16. Holy carp!!

Number 2 is totally me. I am WAY too nosy. I'm certain something really fucking cool is going to happen right after I bite it and I'll totally miss it because I'll be dead. That pisses me off.

Otherwise, I'm not too terribly bothered by the whole idea, I of course don't want the process of dying to hurt a lot because pain sucks ass, and I'd rather be rational to the end than a vegetable, but other than that I'm not too picky. Dole out the usable spare parts and mulch the remains.

[JNelson6563]

3. Everyone's got their own view

I realize that our strongest base instinct is to survive. I think many cling to religion out of fear of death but what is to fear really? To die is to merely cease being, ok. Of course there's the getting there, usually a rather nasty business involving disease or violence of some sort but still, when that's over and your life has ended what is to fear? Nothing, because that is what awaits.

Julie

[tbyg52]

5. Well, some religionists would disagree that "nothing" awaits

Which explains a lot. Of course you're afraid if you've been told about hell all your life (and believe it).

[PassingFair]

13. To me, the worst is leaving behind loved ones....

many who depend on us to take care of
their physical and emotional needs.

I could tell my father was sad to leave
my mother...

:cry:

[TheCentepedeShoes]

11. There was a day

in the past when I wasn't and there will be a day in the future when I will not be.
But was I a kind person today?

[onager]

12. Another Epicurean!

...with a good thought at the end, about being a kind person.

:hi:

JNelson sounds suspiciously like one of 'em, too.

Yep, that whole pain/deterioration/embarassment thing does not make for happy contemplation. And I'm of a Certain Age where I do contemplate it.

I'm trying to be all Epicurean about it, with limited success. IIRC, they believed worrying about pain was useless, since you cannot feel pain until it happens. And even the worst pain before death won't last forever.

When I feel grumpy, I wonder if the Epicureans ever visited an ancient Greek retirement home...

OK, I'll stick with the happy thoughts...

When you're knocking at Death's door, ring the bell and run away. He really hates that.

[Odin2005]

14. Yay, another Epicurean! "Death is Nothing to us. Where I am Death is not. Where Death is I am not"

Don't fear god,
Don't worry about death;
What is good is easy to get, and
What is terrible is easy to endure.

The Epicureans were to the ancient West what primitive Buddhism was to ancient India. But the Epicureans were suppressed first by the Stoics and Neo-Platonists, and then the Christians. Early Buddhism was corrupted by superstitious people who invented a cult of saints to worship and Hindu theological nonsense seeped in.

[funflower]

19. Beautiful. That says it all. n/t

[dmallind]

15. Euthanasia is as close as I get to an emotional issue

I am not even sure why. I am not in any way keen to shuffle off the mortal coil nor have I seen anybody very close to me die a particularly hideous prolonged death so it's not a stimulus from my experience. The exception being a beloved dog for whom euthanasia was an option anyway (and I blame myself a bit for waiting a bit too long rather than for taking advantage of that, but not too much. I was selfish in needing so long to say goodbye, but only by a few days).

But It just floors me and annoys me to a level beyond the rational that we do not allow humans the same dignity as dogs. Ironically - but typically - it is the religious lobby that impedes this dignity, even though they think we are special and unique creations far above "mere" animals.

So mere animals are OK to gently sleep away the pain and empty shell of life but God's special paragons of creation must be mewling physical and mental cripples screaming in agony for months as cancer eats us away or our brains slowly turn to mush? Why? It can't be because God has plans for us even if you accept the possibility - because by definition at the stage at which euthanasia becomes relevant we are beyond much in the way of great achievements. What was God's plan for Terri Schiavo I wonder? What could she have done for the Almighty with her liquid brain matter and dormant synapses?

I honestly think it is the old religious idea that suffering is good for us in that it scourges the soul and, supposedly, turns our mind - if we have any left depending on what disease is ravaging us - towards our more important eternal life.

Either way it is a cruelty beyond anything - yes even beyond genocide - to knowingly inflict prolonged suffering on ALL humanity other than those fortunate enough to die in immediate ways. Even the worst tyrant only killed or tortured subsets of humanity. Those who would force us to breathe - or even be breathed for - years of hopeless pain and wasting away want to torture all of us.

Nobody rational fears death itself for themselves. They may (I do too) fear the pain and discomfort of many manners of death. They may (I do too) dread the prospect of no longer being there for our loved ones or being able to do what we enjoy. But euthanasia deals directly with the first fear and only becomes relevant when the enjoyment or ability to be there for others is diminished so it becomes much less than the pain and suffering. Who wants to see their loved ones die in agony or as a non-functional shell? What are we doing to help them by making ourselves live through it? So even the altruistic reasoning for denying euthanasia does not hold up to scrutiny.

I hope I live to see the day (and surely and specifically hope I die in the day!) when voluntary euthanasia either by first person choice or recorded statements of intent is a normal treatment option for any kind of debilitating chronic malady or condition that causes significant pain or reduction in function. What is more important than life itself? Why should we not control our own? And if we are not allowed to control our death, how can we be said to control our life? Only while it's pleasant? Only while we want it? That's no control at all.

[Deep13]

17. I would like to delay it as long as possible.

:P
Anyway, it happens, it's unavoidable, there's no point worrying about it.

[Iggo]

21. I'm gonna hang on as long as I can...

...'cause this is all there is.