This article in the NYT about "How Religious were the Founding Fathers"

[vixengrl]

This is the one I mean:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html?pagewanted=1&ref=magazine

(It's super-long.)

Does anyone here feel much concerned with asserting the Deism or diffidence of the founders with regard to religion? Does this level of Christianist entanglement in how children are educated concern you? (It does me, and I don't even have kids: http://vixenstrangelymakesuncommonsense.blogspot.com/2010/02/how-christian-were-founding-fathers.html)

Also, should kids be learning about religion as a part of history? I think it's sometimes unavoidable--but doesn't have to be about favoritism. What's your take?

[lazarus]

1. The problem

is with the facts. Everyone wants to fold, spindle, and mutilate the Founders' positions into their own.

Also, as far as teaching about religion, I think we have to do it responsibly. The problem is the "responsibly" part. Fundies aren't going to talk about the realities of the founding of the country (The Treaty of Tripoli, the fact that the freedom of religion the Pilgrims wanted was simply the freedom to practice their own religion, Jefferson's comments on the Wall, etc.). They're going to twist reality. History education is already shoddy and incomplete and biased. Adding religion to it is just going to make it worse. I almost wish I had the ability to home school, to be honest.

[yellerpup]

2. I compiled a list of quotes from the Founding Fathers

that state their own views on the separation of church and state. I've used it regularly for several years to 'reply to all' when someone e-mails me one of those "America The Way Jesus Wants It" idiot compositions. Religion is a huge part of history. I only wish that it's bloodthirsty, detrimental effects were highlighted along with the "miracle" aspects.

Here is my compilations (for reference):

Refutations of "Christian Nation" in quotes from Founding Fathers
Posted by yellerpup in Editorials & Other Articles
Sun Feb 24th 2008, 12:57 PM
The founding fathers knew well the dangers of religious fundamentalism, particulary the Puritan Christian brand of it. Most of our well-known founders were "Deists," who held that neither Jesus or anyone else was divine (or else we all were divine...which is what I prefer). I mail this to everyone who forwards me that tired old "proof" of Christian Nationhood. Taken from various sources.

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible...Some books on Deism fell into my hands...It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared much stronger than the refutations; in short I soon became a thorough deist."
-Benjamin Franklin, "Toward the Mystery" (autobiography)

"When the clergy addressed General Washington on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation, that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address, as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice....he never did say a word of it in any of his public papers...Governor Morris has often told me that General Washington believed no more of that (Christian) system than he himself did.
-Thomas Jefferson, diary entry, 2/1/1799

"As the government of the United States of America is not on any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of of Musselmen (Muslims), - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-Treaty of Tripoli, signed into law by John Adams

And, my most favorite....
"I promised you a letter on Christianity, which I have not forgotten...The delusion...on the clause of the Constitution, which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favourite hope of an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own...the returning good sense of our country threatens abortion of their hopes and they (the preachers) believe that any portion of power confided to me (such as being elected president), will be excerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: FOR I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD, ETERNAL HOSTILITY AGAINST EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN."
-Thomas Jefferson, personal letter to Benjamin Rush (all-caps are also on Jefferson memorial)

"Finally, in answer to Fortescue Aland's question why the Ten Commandments should not now be a part of the common law of England we may say they are not because the never were."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

"I was glad to find in your book a formal contradiction, at length,...that Christianity is part of the common law. The proof of the contrary, which you have adduced, is inconrovertible; to wit, that the common law existed while the Anglo-Saxons were yet pagans, at a time when they had never yet heard the name of Christ pronounced, or knew that such a character had ever existed...What a conspiracy this, between Church and State. Sing Tantarara, rogues all, rogues all. Sing Tantarara, rogues all!"
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Major John Cartwright, 6/5/1824

[YankeyMCC]

3. It's a poorly framed question

Each of the founders may or may not have been religious.

The vast majority felt that it was in the best interest of good government and society in general that the authority of organized religion not be included in the government of state.

[undeterred]

4. Kids should be learning the truth about history.

The history of the United States is incomplete without talking about religion - its an important historical dimension and explains why people behaved the way they did. There was a time when the teaching of history was kind of sanitized to remove any element of religion. The answer is certainly not the fundamentalist alternative, but to put religion in context.

And the truth is always complicated. The founders were all over the place in terms of their beliefs- but at least we can say they had Enlightenment beliefs. I think its the Enlightenment that fundies really want to repeal.

[enlightenment]

5. Thank you.

I teach history and it bothers me a great deal that history takes a whack no matter how it is presented. The most important thing to know about the past is that we cannot know - we can surmise. We can only surmise with some level of confidence, but we can never be certain about any belief, motivation, or feeling of someone in the past. Not completely, not with absolute certitude.

In the US, we largely divorce the history of the United States from the history of Europe (and the rest of the world, but it is uniquely tied to Europe). We start with 'discovery', whip through the colonies, caress the Revolution, and embrace the new Republic as if it sprang, full-blown, from the foreheads of the Founders.

I teach college and every year I have to spend more and more time teaching my students about the development of the nation-state; civil society; the Enlightenment; etc. . . . before I can even start teaching them U.S. history. How can they understand what drove the colonists to seek a new life - and eventually a new nation - without understanding the world from which they came?

And that's college. I have the freedom to make that choice. Primary and secondary school teachers have far less freedom (from what I can tell) - they are trying to teach a discipline that is valued only as far as it promotes whatever goal those in charge are seeking to achieve. I'm not suggesting that they are all wonderful teachers - they aren't - but history is the favored battleground for ideology and teachers of history are just as often the fodder as the front-line of the opposing sides.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

6. Why does it matter what the Founders thought?

Henry David Thoreau had no respect whatsoever for the opinions past generations. On the subject of slaver, he made the analogy of a grandfather who made a pact with the devil seventy years ago (the reference is to the compromise in the Constitution concerning slavery) and then expecting the grandson to live according to the pact. I agree. If the Founders believed something instructive or helpful to us as a society, we can and should talk about it as an important idea. But if the Founders believed something stupid, like that society should be based on the Christian faith, we can reject it as a stupid idea. The same goes for the fatuous doctrine of "Original Intent." It shouldn't matter what the Founders originally meant in the Constitution. They are dead and we are alive. It's our Constitution now, and it needs to meet our needs. The founders envisioned an agrarian republic, in which most citizens living in the country were farmers. They lived before the Industrial Revolution and were not able to foresee the future. Many of their ideas are outdated today. Strangely, the Founding Fathers had great faith in the ability of their posterity to govern themselves. There were several issues on which they deferred judgment (slavery, the Electoral College,) to their progeny's sensibilities. They themselves would likely have been perplexed by the deification of themselves as national figures. This is the reason they allowed for amendments. Their own infallibility is not a concept they dealt with.

[meeshrox]

7. The article is interesting, but doesn't say much about the

religious leanings of the founding fathers as much as it points out the ridiculous way that textbooks are written and published (and the bat-shit crazy education standards Texas has been pumping out lately).

I think that reading the letters and speeches/quotes from the founding fathers is more revealing...I've just begun with Jefferson, moving on to Madison next...

[SkyDaddy7]

8. What the srticle does not point out is...

Many of the founders were deist but they thought Christianity was good for the non educated. It was the opiate of the masses! Thomas Jefferson actually had his own version of the Bible that took out all the loony miracles crap and only had the positive philosophical messages that Jesus taught. Which I think he stole from Eastern Religions but who knows.


YES! The Christians right has taken over many of the school boards across America and they are pouring millions into destroying science & history! It is very troubling to me as well and I too do not have kids!


I think America is headed for some really dark times! And like they are already screaming as problems get worse they will just say, "...it is because Americans are not close enough to GAWD!" And then more religion will be forced on society as the black hole of delusion sucks us down!