I think it is equally unbelievable that the universe exists with or without a god.

[Lisa0825]

My first post in this group...

I have never been a very religious person, but for most of my life, I at least accepted that there was a creator... but as time goes by my beliefs have frayed more and more. Now I find I don't much believe in anything, but I find it just as hard to believe that the universe (and those of us in it) came into existence with no divine direction, as it is to believe that there is some grand creator who crafted or at least began it all.

It was easy to have a crutch when I had religion... things I didn't understand, I could just chalk up to "God." But now that I have no solid belief, I feel pretty much perplexed. Do you have any favorite books, authors, websites, etc to direct me to, concerning trying to understand existence without religion, for the newbies in this arena? Or do you just not wonder about it? I wonder constantly about existence, the universe, why and how it exists... I didn't really wonder that much when I believed in god. Now I do.

I was surfing Amazon today, but didn't find any titles that seemed to be what I was looking for. I thought maybe some fellow DUer might relate to what I am feeling.

[laconicsax]

1. The universe does not require your belief to exist. Gods do.

Here's a video of Lawrence Krauss giving a talk on the origins of the universe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

Basically, if the observations and physics done to date are correct, quantum physics makes the universe inevitable.

Either way, the manner in which a creator deity would have brought the universe into being is unknown. By saying 'god did it,' to explain the beginning of the universe essentially replaces one unknown with another, the only difference being that saying 'we don't know' can (and often does) lead to further investigation and discovery whereas saying 'god did it' prevents it, leaving the answer unknown.

As to the question you're asking, I don't have any recommendations. I just try to read as much about cosmology and physics as I can to try to understand the issue. Being a layman, I just accept that I'll never have an in depth understanding of the subject and that answers to the questions I have may not come within my lifetime.

[Lisa0825]

8. This may be corny, but.....

ever since I saw the movie Highlander, so many years ago, I had this fantasy that when we die, the "reward" is simply that we know everything.

Even when I still believed in a god of some sort, it was generalized, and never fit the "Christian mold." And even then, I still thought, "Well how did GOD get there?" I can't fathom that something came from nothing.... even god.

Thanks for the link. I will watch it tonight.

[Lisa0825]

14. I am 10 minutes in to the video, and I have to say....

I LOVE HIM! LOL! He's got a great sense of humor and manner of speaking!

edited to add:

"Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than the atoms in your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics. You are all star dust..... < snip > So forget Jesus. The stars died so you could be here today!"

AWESOME!!!

[YankeyMCC]

2. True spirituality is hard

because it isn't about blind faith in the words and beliefs of others instead you have to go it alone. True spirituality, I've found, is about facing the question you are asking, "How do I live in this universe as incredible and marvelous as it seems when there isn't apparently any clear creator and therefore someone who has all the answers?"

Only you can find the answers, give meaning to the world you experience, and it's a hard lonely business figuring that out.

It's also a wonderful fulfilling experience once you accept that and starting living as best you can. And then you find out maybe it isn't so lonely because everyone else is trying to do the same thing and if you can find a group of people trying to tread similar path as you that helps a great deal as well.

At least, that is how it is working out for me.

peace.

[Lisa0825]

9. Yes, it is very hard.

And I think what has brought me to this point is that I have come to the understanding that I will not have a family of my own, and basically family and god are what 99% of the people I know define their lives by. Am I defined by just doing some good things (I volunteer for a few causes, mostly animal rescue)? By working every week to pay my bills like a hamster running on a wheel? I guess the bottom line is that it is just the first time that I have hit a low without having something to "fall back on."

[YankeyMCC]

16. I know that feeling of not having something to 'fall back on'

and I realized that looking for something to fall back on misses the point that you always have something to fall back on...you, yourself.

There's a lot there in you question about defining yourself that could lead to a lot of discussion and good discussion it is but not something I would recommend doing on a web forum.

I'll just say maybe don't worry so much about defining yourself and just live your life in the best way that seems right to you, try and do no harm and act with compassion.

[onager]

3. Welcome! And a suggestion.

First, my standard greeting to everyone who admits posting here for the first time:

"I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.

"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat; "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."

"How do you know I'm mad?," said Alice.

"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

As for your questions - I think Vic Stenger may be able to help.

Stenger works both sides of the street. He's a quantum physicist/astronomer, AND a professor of philosophy. So he works on the scientific question of "How we got here," as well as the other question of "WTF are we doing here?"

As a physicist, Stenger was on the teams that researched gluons, quarks, strange particles, and neutrinos. Wikipedia notes: Stenger was a pioneer in the emerging research focused on neutrino astronomy and very high-energy gamma rays. His final research project prior to retirement as an experimental physicist was participating in the Japan-based Super-Kamiokande underground experiment...Masatoshi Koshiba, the leader of the project, won a share of the 2002 Nobel Prize in Physics for his efforts.

That sounds intimidating, but Stenger is not. Like Richard Feynmann and Carl Sagan, he has a gift for explaining brain-cracking scientific concepts in simple language. I've heard him speak. I think I learned more about quantum physics in his one-hour lecture than I did from several books.

Maybe it helps that Stenger grew up middle-class in Bayonne, New Jersey: Most people in Bayonne, like folks in similar towns across the country, had little education and could neither verbalize nor intellectualize their problems very well. They just suffered them.

They listened eagerly when the priests promised them everlasting life in paradise, where they would be reunited with their departed love ones, but this was not enough when the suffering and guilt were unbearable.

The parish priests did their best and I fault them little. They operated within a framework developed over centuries that would not have survived this long if it did not give people something they wanted, no matter how insufficient...

My father...remained a Catholic and always expressed belief in God. He did not argue with me about my views -- although he and other older relatives often told me to keep my mouth shut...

While they succeeded in keeping me from expressing my thoughts too openly, they had no effect on those thoughts. As long as I kept my mouth shut, they left me alone.

Stenger's "thoughts" eventually led to stuff like this: A scenario is suggested by which the universe and its laws could have arisen naturally from "nothing." Current cosmology suggests that no laws of physics were violated in bringing the universe into existence. The laws of physics themselves are shown to correspond to what one would expect if the universe appeared from nothing. There is something rather than nothing because something is more stable.

Stenger's web site...and despite all his credentials, web-site design is NOT among his talents: http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Home.html

Good luck, and let us know how you're doing!

[Lisa0825]

10. Thanks! Stenger's book is in my cart now!

He sounds like someone I would like. The whole "something from nothing" deal has always bothered me... even when I still believed in god.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

4. Read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World

After reading it, I never looked back. I'd highly recommend any book by Sagan.

If you're looking for answers here, we don't have any. But, on the bright side, we don't pretend to have all the answers.

Welcome! :hi:

[HarveyDarkey]

7. I second that recommendation

IMHO, his best work

[Lisa0825]

12. Thanks for the recommendation. I'm ordering it, and also bookmarked a couple others. nt

[Lisa0825]

11. Thanks! It is in my cart!

I have some studying to do! :-)

I have never actually read a book by Sagan, but have read articles and have seen shows that he contributed to over the years.

[Lisa0825]

5. Thanks for the great suggestions!

I will be looking them up tonight when I get home! :pals:

[realisticphish]

6. I think it's totally normal for everyone to ponder this

And I don't think it's unreasonable to be frustrated about it.

One thing that was hard for me was to let go of "why." There really doesn't have to be a why. It can just be. But it's a bizarre prospect, that this universe formed, we evolved, and yet there's no REASON for it. Personally, there's a point where I just have to say, "I don't know." We might know eventually, but maybe not. Religious people insert their beliefs at that point (and significantly before it), but I simply admit ignorance, and continue to examine evidence rather than declare that God did it.

One thing that helped me was an analysis of the cosmological argument for god, the idea of an uncaused cause. That is to say, everything has a cause, except the first thing. That thing is god.

But there is absolutely no reason why the universe needs a cause. The whole does not necessarily take on the properties of the componants. A brick wall built by bricks that are 6"x3" is not itself 6"x3". It has seperate properties from the materials used to make it.

Anyway, that's a very poor representation of it, but it's one of the things that helps me try to understand.

[Lisa0825]

13. Yeah, the "why's" get me.

The why's and the how's. Why am I here? Sometimes life seems like such a lot of trouble if there's no real purpose to it... does there have to be a higher being to be a purpose?

[awoke_in_2003]

48. "It can just be"

I work with a guy who is susceptible to getting stressed out. To help with this, he has a saying over his office door- "It is what it is". When you realize what this is saying life becomes a bit easier.

[Soylent Brice]

15. welcome to AA.

:hi:

i haven't felt any reason to believe in any divine being for over 20 yrs now. i wish i could be more helpful.

[Lisa0825]

17. I guess once I kick the habit, it will be smoother. LOL nt

[Soylent Brice]

25. that's the perfect analogy considering the fact

that most people react to religion like a drug addict.

lol

[Lisa0825]

18. Thank you all so much for the input. I really appreciate it! One more question...

I have ordered 5 books and visited many websites in the past 24 hours. I thoroughly enjoyed the video link posted in this thread, and I really look forward to receiving the books I have ordered.

I was curious to know if anyone here has been to a UU church. Actually one of the reasons I started looking for some books/resources on A/A is that I recently went to the website of a local UU church and they specifically mentioned atheists and agnostics among those included in their membership. I have never been to a service, so I don't know how "higher-power oriented" they are, but I know they have excellent track records on volunteerism, social justice actions, etc.

So anyway, I was just wondering if anyone had been that route, and if you felt that it was compatible with being atheist/agnostic.

[lazarus]

19. depends on the congregation

some are more "higher power" than others. We don't bother, because we just don't feel the need, but they do help a lot of people.

[Lisa0825]

21. Well, either way, the fact that they are open to it is how I found myself here...

so I thank them for that :-)

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

38. I was considering it

But I read some articles by the leader (pastor, minister, ???) of our local UU congregation and it seemed more of a woo woo, new-age type of congregation. I know that others are different, but I think you'll find a lot of that type of thing at UU groups.

[realisticphish]

39. it's an easy slide

from mainstream religion to newage. It SOUNDS better, more feel-good and happy, and still allows a belief in the spiritual realm

[Lisa0825]

41. New age stuff has never appealed to me.

I lost a couple friends because they got obsessed with A Course in Miracles and The Celestine Prophecies. Even more recently, I cut people off because they got into The Secret, and they just became unbearable to be around!

I'm not sure what I expected UU to be... I just was so surprised to see that they welcomed atheists and agnostics rather than being threatened by it.

[realisticphish]

43. oh, they really are welcoming

they'll take anyone, which I think is cool.

And I think it really depends on who's running it, and what the demographics of the membership are

[Lisa0825]

40. Thanks.... to me, that is even worse.... as a former medical researcher, I find woo to be much worse

than religion. :scared:

[and-justice-for-all]

22. Divinity is not requried for the creation of the universe...

and as we continue to look into why the cosmos exist, we are coming to a possible conclusion that there may in fact have been many 'Big Bangs'; which when the universe contracts on itself again, it will then create a new cosmos with a set of different rules and laws.

I am not drawn to spirituality, let alone religion, because the universe is unimaginably large and the numbers involved to understand it seem to make my head explode. Religion, invisible friends, dogma... do not help in any way to come to terms with our insignificance in the Universe.

[Lisa0825]

23. But my thoughts say how did the big bang happen? why?

How did the "stuff" (energy, etc) needed for big bangs get there? Religion has that crutch "you just have faith", and I was never really satisfied with that, but I TRIED to be. But without religion, I still can't fathom why anything exists.

I am not sure if what I am looking for is philosophy or science, or some combination of the two. I'd just like something to help me sort out the thoughts I have.

It makes me wish I had studied physics when I was younger, as opposed to biological sciences.

[realisticphish]

24. but really

how is religion figuring out the grand meaning more than anything else? All it would do for you is replace scientific consideration of the universe with a declaration of the supernatural. If anything, it opens up MORE problems, and questions to deal with.

I guess my point is that yeah, science struggles when we start talking about the actual structure and origins of the universe itself. But religion adds nothing to the discussion, really.

[and-justice-for-all]

27. Well religion does not explain why things exist...

what they do offer is non-answers, cheap answers without empirical evidence to prove their claims.

It takes time for Science to answer these questions, but the answers are coming none the less.

As far as I am concerned, matter and energy probably always existed in some form.

[Lisa0825]

28. It doesn't really answer anything, but....

I at least had some belief that there WAS something there that had caused things to happen. Now that I no longer believe that, I want to understand how or why we are here. I don't have that over-simplified "God" answer anymore, so now I want to dig deeper and learn more about the things I don't understand.

[realisticphish]

30. I think one thing you will have to run into

is that we just don't know it all yet, and perhaps never will. We understand a LOT, but not even close to the whole picture. It's part of the sacrifice of being a non-believer. We give up the ability to be certain

[Lisa0825]

31. That makes sense, but I still want to know more :-)

I guess you can say that thinking about these things has stirred my curiosity about things. I want to read about both science and philosophy in a way I haven't in a long time. I don't expect to know the final answers, but I think more knowledge might bring me to a place where I (like you) am better able to accept my limitations in that respect.

I compare it to when I first started going to church on my own as an adult. I'd gone with my mom as a child, then stopped, and then when I decided to go back, I had that proverbial "new convert enthusiasm" for a while, and I got really involved (thankfully I was in a pretty progressive church). So now that I have gone through a change in what I believe, I once again want to learn more and understand more about this new way of looking at life and the world and the universe.

I have actually considered myself agnostic for at least a couple years, but I mostly just joked about it. Wanting to understand more is a new development. At least I didn't fall back into the religion trap! :)

[realisticphish]

32. oh hell yes

never stop asking questions.

I had a brief resurgence of religion at the beginning of college. Not a big deal, but through high school I cared less and less. I felt guilty about it, so I went through a period of trying to be religious as possible. Not in a fundie way, I was raised ELCA Lutheran, but I prayed a lot, and tried to be active in liberal religious groups.

Now, I think that this was my mind's way of fighting the inevitable... it wasn't long after that my faith dropped away completely. I was a deist, briefly, then abandoned that to be agnostic. And while it is, IMHO, 100% semantics, I now finally call myself an atheist. I still think that agnostic is a better descriptor, but it ISN'T to theists. To theists, an agnostic is someone "on the fence" which is of course (usually) not at all the case. I wanted to be clear about my non-belief.

If you're interested in the historical and philosophical aspects of it, try the podcast Irreligiosophy. Two ex-mormons talk about the history of religion, focusing on the Bible and Judeo-Christian beliefs, but also muslim, hindu, etc. They are VERY NSFW, and some people might not like the tone, which is mocking much of the time. But both guys are very interesting, and they have some fantastic guests

[and-justice-for-all]

33. We are here for no purpous at all...

we are fluke of nature, life is a by product of everything else in the cosmos.

How are here; because of chemistry, 'why' is up to the individual; even though in reality there is no 'why', just the 'how'.

If you want to further your understandings, look to the answers Science has provided to some profound questions.

[Lisa0825]

34. Yeah, how can there be a purpose? Energy doesn't "care."

I guess it is more about *finding a purpose* for oneself, rather than looking for one that was already there.

[realisticphish]

35. nice

yeah, that's an excellent way to look at it.

[amyrose2712]

26. I'm not sure if this book would answer your questions or create more...

but I found myself wondering more about existence after reading John Gribbon's book "The Search for Superstrings, Symmetry, and the Theory of Everything"

http://www.amazon.com/Search-Superstrings-Symmetry-Theory-Everything/dp/0316329754

It may be a bit outdated now but I found it to be a good starting point for trying to understand the universe and the space in which we "exist"

Just a suggestion. Happy searching!

[Lisa0825]

29. Thank you!

I will look it up tonight when I get home :-)

[Synnical]

36. Welcome, Lisa - George H. Smith

Has anyone recommended George H. Smith's

Atheism: The Case Against God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism:_The_Case_Against_God

http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780879751241-3

It's the book I recommend to friends who are curious . . .

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[laconicsax]

37. I think you just did.

That's a good book. I think I'll start a reread when I get home.

[Lisa0825]

42. Thanks! I have already ordered 4 books, but I put that one on my wish list

for the next order I make.

Thanks for the suggestion!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. I say a universe with or without a Santa Claus is 50/50.

[onager]

45. You just reminded me of a favorite movie dialogue.

The Spy Who Came In From The Cold.

Some of the younger people in here may not have seen it.

Richard Burton and Claire Bloom - sounding a lot like an R/T thread - are discussing their beliefs. Bloom laughs at the idea of "God," but it's obvious that she has replaced religion with communism. She gushes about how communism will create a new world where everyone is equal, and on and on.

Burton laughs at this, and tries to warn her she is just replacing one failed ideology with another. But Bloom is a stone fundie-type convert to communism, and angrily asks what he believes.

One of the greatest lines ever uttered in a movie...

"I believe a Number 9 bus will take me to Hammersmith. I do not believe it will be driven by Father Christmas."

[Lisa0825]

46. At least most people grow out of believing in Santa Claus!

But I guess the point I started with is that now that I no longer rely on faith, I do not yet understand enough about what I believe without a creator. So both options just seem hard to comprehend to me right now.

But at least I am on the rational path.

On a side note... I received 3 more books today... I have my free time occupied for the foreseeable future!

[realisticphish]

47. i had a similar period

when I started rejecting my faith, it took a couple years before I was comfortable saying I was agnostic, and another year before I was comfortable saying I was an evil, god-hating atheist.

And my facebook still says agnostic, because I don't want to upset my mom :)

[awoke_in_2003]

49. My mother died on Thanksgiving day...

when I was 13. I never had a problem letting go of the idea of god, but I did have a problem knowing I would never see her again. What makes it easier is remembering what a terrific person she was while she was here. It may sound cliche', but she was one of a kind, and would help anyone in need (even though we never had much). She taught me how to be a good person.

[Lisa0825]

50. Yes, I think that is the hardest part of the idea for me to let go of....

I think that is why for so long I have still said I believe in something, but not sure what. I just don't want to believe that I will never see my parents again, especially my mom. And part of me still wants to think she could watch over me or communicate, even though I tell myself a dream is just a dream.

I read a quote (I think it was Hitchens) about wondering why anyone would want to hold on to the idea of a tyrannical God with a set of rigid rules you had to live by... no, that part is easy to let go of.... it's letting go of loved ones for good that is the hard part.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

51. Honestly, I think that makes life MORE worthwhile

There's a quote from a book I read that (I think) is from a poet. "Death is the mother of beauty". Meaning, the possibility of loss is what makes things so precious. I live every day more fully because this really is all that we have.