Feeling just a bit discouraged about the sermon

[enlightenment]

that passed for a presidential speech tonight. Unsurprised that Fox News and Andrew Sullivan found it so uplifting - it sure did play to the arm-waving Christian contingent.

Have we had such an overtly evangelical President since the 19th century? Carter was and is a man of strong belief, but I don't recall him peppering his speeches with 'pray' this and 'scripture says' that. Reagan talked the talk - but it's doubtful he walked the walk. Bush was loud, but mostly insincere . . . and I honestly don't recall the same level of sermonizing in his speeches.

I would be offended at the tone of this sermonizing if I were religious but not Christian - how can 'scripture' imply anything but the Christian bible . . . or maybe the Torah (although his direct reference was NT, was it not)? How do persons of other faiths feel about this continual referencing by the leader of our nation? I know how I, a non-believer, feel - and it ain't warm and fuzzy.

Why is it impossible to discuss the very real tragedy of lives lost and irreparably changed without bringing faith into it? How can I even pretend to support a President who doesn't have the courtesy to recognize that I (and many others) did not and will not 'kneel in prayer' for those who were affected?

sigh.

[awoke_in_2003]

1. Shhhh...

we must gush over the "rain puddles in heaven" line :puke:

[darkstar3]

2. Nice to see

someone else who didn't have a standing orgasm ovation at the end of that speech. I only read it, but I was still thoroughly unimpressed at the godbagging language.

[Goblinmonger]

3. Wow, I stopped in GD first

and posted similar thoughts on one of the threads.

Pretty talking goes a long way.

Not to mention majority privilege.

[enlightenment]

4. You are far more courageous than I.

I don't have the fortitude to weather the slings and arrows of GD/GDP outrage. I have seen comments that suggest that the President is the 'mourner in chief' and it's part of his JOB to offer that sort of consolation. That was enough to make my head spin . . .

I bow to your straightforwardness!

[yellerpup]

6. Hey!

:hi:

[Goblinmonger]

7. Check your PM

:hi:

[yellerpup]

5. I didn't catch all of the President's speech

because I had changed channels to avoid hearing Janet Napolitano's OT reading. I'd already suffered through Jan Brewer (she cannot focus) so I watched someone get a living room makeover until I remembered that I wanted to hear the President's speech and flipped back to it. I missed most of it, but I don't mind that he uses a traditional poeticism that resonates with the most people. By almost all accounts, he was a hit, so we all win.

In his "Call to Renewal" Keynote Address of June 28, 2006, Barack Obama initially expressed the sentiment that secular people are no less capable of being moral than religious theists:
“In fact, because I do not believe that religious people have a monopoly on morality, I would rather have someone who is grounded in morality and ethics, and who is also secular, affirm their morality and ethics and values without pretending that they're something they're not. They don't need to do that. None of us need to do that. “

From: atheism.about.com/od/barackobamareligionfaith/a/SecularAtheists.htm

I think he gets us and accepts us. I don't agree with the conclusion of the article that he is being two-faced when dealing with non-believers. We aren't going to change the way he connects with people, or speaks, or thinks, nor should we want that.

I don't pray, I don't bow my head for public prayer, I refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance with the phrase "under God" in it. The Pledge sounds much better without it. I remember how difficult it was for our teacher to re-program our second-grade class to waste 20 minutes every morning trying to insert that stumbling phrase. I didn't feel that I was watching a speech last night, but more as if I were attending a memorial service.

"Why is it impossible to discuss the very real tragedy of lives lost and irreparably changed without bringing faith into it? -- It isn't for you and me, but it is for people of faith. Obama describes himself as a Christian; he speaks that language. I heard him try to rally people into their best, most rational behavior to help each other.

Dealing with grief requires a gentle hand, inclusiveness, compassion. Last night, the President turned a lock (that I don't have and will never understand) for the survivors and believers that allowed them to begin to heal enough to move past the trauma.

[enlightenment]

8. I'm glad you liked it.

I found it less than inclusive. Why is it acceptable for the President to give a speech to help believers while excluding a significant portion of the population?

If the President was seeking to 'rally people into their best, most rational behavior' then he would have done better to try for some measure of inclusiveness.

As for his comments in 2006 . . . he said a lot of things in the run-up to his election that he has proven he didn't really mean. Even if he does believe that 'secular people are no less capable of being moral' (talk about damning with faint praise with that phrase) that's not the point of my argument.

I voted for a political leader, not a preacher. He stands before a podium, not a pulpit.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to include the following because I want you to know how I feel about this whole 'grieving nation' concept. I wrote it above and took it out because it was more of an aside than a direct response to your comment . . . but I'm tired of simply allowing the idea to pass without saying anything. And I'm cranky this morning.

I'm not grieving for those lost and injured because I don't know them, never knew them, will never know them. They were not and are not part of my circle. I am empathetic toward their family and friends (and the family of the alleged shooter) and I am disgusted with how far our nation has fallen from commonsense and civility - but I do not believe in adopting second-hand grief as so many do. It's a strange pathology, not empathy. I don't need pretty speeches to help me, because I don't make a habit of working myself up that way; I don't leave flowers or stuffed animals outside buildings to prove how sensitive I am, nor do I convince myself that I should wail and tear my hair over the death of strangers. If people really DID feel that strongly about such things, a large segment of the population would be useless gooey puddles by now, grieving over the death of every soldier and civilian who has died in the wars the President refuses to end . . . but they don't do that, do they? It's a rather selective sympathy - public figures and celebrities are more deserving of their tears than others, I guess.

Your last comment was that 'grief requires a gentle hand, inclusiveness, compassion' - the differences between us are apparently myriad, but particularly profound in this case. I don't believe that all those people at that event were 'grieving'. They are reacting to a very ugly and sad event - but to call it grief is excessive. If you were to ask them why they are crying, could they tell you? If you asked them if they could tell you anything about the victims beyond what the media has told them, could they?

I find it abhorrent, frankly. That sort of group behavior is cheap and makes people feel good about themselves, but it is superficial. Shallow. False.

[Goblinmonger]

9. You and I...we need to have a beer sometime.

Your "below the line" comments reflect a lot of what I think about all this.

[yellerpup]

12. When you plan to be on the East Coast, PM

me and we'll set it up. :toast:

[Goblinmonger]

13. May be back in Boston this summer

for a conference if all works out. Or Philly.

[yellerpup]

15. Check your inbox.

:hi:

[enlightenment]

18. I think I'd like that, GM.

:)

[yellerpup]

23. Oops, looks like I replied to a request that wasn't for me.

Thanks for the burrito tip anyway! :rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

24. I'll have a beer with you, too. n/t

[yellerpup]

29. Any ol' time.

:toast:

[yellerpup]

11. Hope you feel better as the day progresses.

It sucks to wake up crabby. When I wrote of those who 'grieve' I was referring to those in the Tucson audience, the people who did have a stake or actual loss in some way, and I apologize for not making that clear. Survivors of that event were in attendance as were their neighbors, friends and family. Tucson is not that big a town and a lot of people were hurt whether they were shot or not. Like you, I feel empathy for the traumatized and for their families who worry about not only their physical health but also how they will suffer emotionally from what they experienced. The survivors of the ones who were killed and wounded were in that audience; people who had been treated and released from the hospital were in that audience. I have no doubt their grief was real. I think I know what you are talking about when you refer to self-dramatizers who throw up a distasteful spectacle of mourning for people they don't know and have never met. I have a fundie cousin who does that; she is pathetic in her need for attention. I appreciate your opening up. I'm not sure that you and I actually have myriad differences, but even if you decide that we do, please know I had no intention of irritating you by replying to your thread.

[enlightenment]

17. You're right, yellerpup -

we probably don't have many differences, usually. Today I am a seven-headed Hydra of irritable, though. Thank you for the patient reply and I apologize for my nasty one.

You're right, also, that there were people in that audience who have a right to feel grief. I still don't think it was appropriate for the President to sermonize; if there was even one individual amongst those who knew (or were) a victim of this mess that does not 'believe' then it was a slap - albeit probably a small one considering the situation - to their feelings on the matter.

Let me put it this way: if I were a victim or a family member of a victim, I wouldn't look for solace in religion. It would irk me beyond words if someone pushed their faith on me under the assumption that I would appreciate their concern. I know this - I've been in the position - and there is nothing quite as annoying as having to be nice to someone under those circumstances, when what I'd really like to do is tell them to shut the f*&k up and take their religious pablum elsewhere.

My parents are currently - actively - in the process of dying (in Arizona, btw). They are elderly and frail and while I am increasingly bereft at the knowledge that I will likely lose them both in the next few months, I am not looking forward to the deluge of religious sentiment that is going to follow. I have one sister who is a fundy; she is already starting with that pap and I can't very well tell her to shove it - anymore than I can tell other family and friends who find their strength in their beliefs. Perhaps unfortunately, I was raised to be polite and considerate of others' feelings, so I know I'll keep my mouth shut and mutter thanks for sentiment that is more like nails on a chalkboard than a soothing balm.

That's my own, apocryphal story, and has nothing to do with the events in Tuscon, of course. I use it only to illustrate that we really don't KNOW how each and every person who is truly grieving feels about religious sentiment, do we? Does the President? Did he send out aides to discover the religious predilection of every victim/survivor of the shooting? I doubt it. He assumed - and if even a single person had to be 'polite' under those circumstances then I say he was in the wrong. It is an extra burden that no one should be expected to bear for the sake of the 'majority' - and it is invariably assumed that those who do not have faith WILL accept it, in silence and with grace.

Obama could have written a memorializing speech that gave comfort to those truly grieving without the sermonizing. He CHOSE not to do so because of his personal faith. But he wasn't speaking as an individual last night, he was speaking as the leader of our nation. His choice was thoughtless . . . though why I should be surprised I do not know.

[Goblinmonger]

19. My mom passed away last February

She was a very conservative and active Catholic. I did a lot of smiling and nodding and holding back comments.

I feel for you and what you are going through. Feel free to PM me and vent if you need it.

And if you ever get up to the land of cheese and brats, let me know.

[enlightenment]

20. Thanks, GM.

I'm sorry for your loss and appreciate the offer to vent . . . and if I'm ever up that way, I'll let you know. I'm down in Sin City, so if you get a hankering to give your money away to the casinos, I'll be happy to spot you a beer at my favorite pub instead (never seen the sense in giving away my money, but people sure seem to love the Strip!)

[yellerpup]

21. No need to apologize.

You are in a tremendously stressful situation right now. I can also agree with you that if I were a victim or someone close to me was, I could not accept comfort from some insensitive asshat hawking god either. It would piss me off royally. The last time we had dinner out, our waitress (Japanese) at our favorite sushi joint asked me who I prayed to at night and pointed to the ceiling. I asked her to repeat herself because I couldn't believe she was interrupting my meal to ask me that question, but yep, that's what she wanted to know. I admit that I played with her a little bit. I said, "I pray to my ancestors, don't you?" Sorry that your parents are failing, that is never an easy time in anyone's life. I don't envy your having to deal with your fundie sister on these issues either. With family you can win every debate, hands down, and still lose. My big solution was to move away forever, challenge every mention of Jesus (etc.) when we spoke, and stay calm. You have every right to feel exactly the way you feel and if you come to a point where you can no longer be polite--just ask yourself what's the worst that can happen? They'll stop bothering you? Grab that if you get the chance!

As for the President's speech, if you or I were the writers, it would have been a completely different speech.

[enlightenment]

22. I am just starting to realize how much

this is affecting my behaviour - to my dismay. My even keel seems rather barnacled at the moment, because I'm definitely listing toward 'no patience or tact' at an alarming rate.

I find it astonishing how many people are starting to ask utterly inappropriate questions of strangers - or just start up with religious conversation in the middle of meetings and such. Even more astonishing that your Japanese waitress would ask such a thing, but fundy churches actively recruit in immigrant communities (and in other countries - I grew up in Japan and still recall being cornered on a train by a couple of young Japanese Baptists who were ever so eager to share the 'good news'. And that was decades ago). I'm not certain I could have been as polite (but love the Shinto reference!)

My sister is ignorable, though I am not looking forward to what she will insist on for our father's service. Mom has made her wishes clear - no service, cremation, and 'scatter my damned ashes where it stays HOT all the time' (she hates the cold) - but dad is more conventional.

Other people? Well, based on my growing impatience, I may be a raging harridan by the time they pass and not loath at all to telling each and every god-talker just where to stick it. Who knows?

And you're right again; we would have written a completely different speech. Sigh.

[yellerpup]

25. You're going to get through it.

Even if you'd rather die than have to do it, you won't, and you'll still have to deal. If you do lash out, as long as you don't do it with a deadly weapon, your target will survive.

On New Year's day my friend gave an Oshogatsu party and I asked her opinion about the encounter with our sushi waitress. She seemed to think it was out of character for any Japanese except a Christian who was trying to make a conversion and that it was an unspeakably rude incident.

Be true to yourself, eat well, and try to get enough rest. Wishing you better times ahead.

[yellerpup]

26. Dupe. Delete.

[enlightenment]

27. I know. This is part of living; if I can't embrace it, neither can I

reject it. I've been lucky to have my parents for as long as I have; there is no point in arguing with nature.

I'll try not to lash out, not so much for anyone else's sake as for my own. I don't like that behaviour in others and certainly not in myself and it is a bit of a surprise that I'm not as balanced as I thought (or hoped I would be).

Thanks for the kind wishes.

I agree with your friend; it is very out of character (imo) for any but an evangelizing Christian Japanese - and in my admittedly limited experience with them, they were far more polite than their American and European counterparts when it came to that sort of thing. It's not a polite practice to shove your faith down someone's throat in any case, but the couple that I dealt with on the train were almost deferential in their proselytizing . . . if that's possible. It still felt like I was cornered, since the train was crowded and my alternative choice was to move next to the older, rather smelly gent who had his hand down his trousers, scratching his crotch (I hope he was scratching - I was about 13 or so and unwilling to get near him).

[yellerpup]

28. Great story about teenage you on the train

between a smelly old gent and teenage proselytizers!

[amyrose2712]

32. + like a zillion...

I am so glad to have articulate people like you around that can express what I am feeling even when I can not.

[PassingFair]

10. My mother, who thinks I'm going to hell (in a nice way)...called me CRYING yesterday.

She was that moved by the speech.

A politician reaps benefits from
giving the people what they want.

Lincoln (who I am convinced wasn't
even a "deist", but a total agnostic),
sprinkled his speeches with religion,
because the country was deeply religious,
and they NEEDED religious assurance during
the war.

There is a first draft of one of his
speeches that clearly shows that the religious
language was inserted the later version.
(I can't remember which one).

I didn't watch it, personally I
would have felt uncomfortable with it,
from everything I've been hearing.

How does it stack up in comparison
with the speech from the Murrah Bldg.
bombing?

I don't have time to watch it now, but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DgXx_evi6Q

[charlie]

14. I already watched both back to back

Thematically, they're nearly the same speech.

Clinton's was lower key, the tragedy was too large to connect to a small number of names and faces. And Clinton did the religious shuffle, too.

[charlie]

16. Yeah, there's no denying that stuff *works*

If you want a running start, sermonize. The rest will be as easy as falling down stairs.

There's a thread calling Obama's behavior "christlike", compared to Republicans. That poster got a bit of a drubbing.

There's another saying he knows in his bones there's a "divine order" playing out, and the day of 100% harmony and love is coming. IOW, he's a prophet. That one's getting kudos and reccs.

I'll bet if he didn't use religious rhetoric or too little of it, your mom and plenty here would've been truly disappointed.

[jonnyblitz]

30. i just tried to watch the speech for the first time posted

in the political videos forum and i had to abruptly stop listening only a few minutes as soon as he said "scripture tells us...."

It probably doesn't help I am not a huge fan to begin with but still. bleh

[charlie]

31. You didn't stay for the second scriptural reference, then?

"Scripture tells us that there is evil in the world, and that terrible things happen for reasons that defy human understanding."

That's about as useful as telling us there are feet below our knees.

At least he didn't slip into King James Speak, like most do when they're affecting pious profundity. They know not, I say unto you, and all that silly shit.

[cynatnite]

33. When it comes to death and loss such as this...

I don't have a problem with relgion or the expressions of it...no matter who does it or why.

I think this is one of those times people should deal with something as horrible as this in their own way. If a public memorial such as this is it, I'm fine with it.

We all knew that Obama is a religious person. He's given these kinds of speeches before so no one should be surprised if he does one again...least of all in this setting.

I don't care what people of faith believe or don't believe. Whatever helps them sleep at night. It affects me not.

However, I will say my piece the second they attempt to convert me or convince me that gawd belongs on our money. If they want to know what I think of the pledge of allegience, they'll hear that, too. I do not want my government sponsering any form of religion and it does. That's where the line is for me.

Now, before I lose my atheist credentials, I will say that I am an atheist, I don't believe there is some up-in-heaven bearded guy watching me trim my toenails or having sex with my husband. I don't believe there is a place where billions upon billions of people are living after having died. Once we're dead...we're dead. It sucks, but there you go.