Am I an idiot for not trusting religious groups with political aspirations?

[cynatnite]

There are plenty here in the states that have tried using their influence to limit abortion rights, gay rights, and more.

So, when a socially conservative religious group in Egypt has political aspirations I am suspicious. I don't trust them. Why would I believe the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate group who wants equality and peace for all?

[onager]

1. Egyptians ain't buying that, either.

When I was living there (2005-09 in Alexandria), I remember some newspaper interviews after the November 2005 elections. That's the election that scared Mubarak, when the MB won 78 seats. Since the MB is "banned but tolerated" - urk - their candidates had to run as Independents.

Mostly, from what I could tell, the MB won with the good ol' democratic tools of vote-buying, intimidation and ballot-box stuffing. I asked a well-educated female acquaintance (and devout Muslim) if she voted in that election. Her answer: "No. It wasn't worth my life."

Anyway, the interviews were with Egyptian liberals, horrified at the election results and the possibility that the MB might slime into power. One woman said she sort of hoped the MB did get into power - "so people can see what liars they are."

For the past several years, the MB have traded their gellibyahs for Armani suits and played all nice and cuddly. Sometimes the mask slipped - like in Dec. 2005, when the MB Supreme Guide called the Holocaust a "myth."

They have also always served as a useful tool for Mubarak, who liked to unleash the MB against "communists" (i.e., anyone who threatened him).

I keep reading articles written by Useful Idiots in the Western media, claiming that "Alexandria is a main power base for the MB." No, it is NOT, and here's a curious fact about that. In the 2005 elections, Alexandria elected more MB candidates than the rest of Egypt. But the actual membership of the MB in Alexandria is about the LOWEST of anywhere in Egypt. As noted above, vote-buying, intimidation, ballot-box stuffing, etc.

I never saw much affection for the MB in Alexandria, and many of my Egyptian co-workers lived there, as I did. Some of them wanted a "more religious" society, but thought the MB would be a cure worse than the disease of secularism. For a few thousand years, Alexandria has had a reputation as the most liberal and tolerant city in Egypt. Fanatics HATE that, naturally.

Here's a page full of links about the MB. I also found this linked from Freeperville, which gave me pause, but some of them are good and from local (Middle Eastern) sources:

http://freedemocracy.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/the-moderate-fascist-muslim-brotherhood/

[trotsky]

3. Your insight into the workings of Egypt has always been helpful, onager.

But now even more than ever. Thank you.

[immoderate]

4. That's what I'm talkin' about!

--imm

[SkyDaddy7]

7. IF what you cliam is true about the MB Headquarters or Stronghold

not being in Alexandria then it is not just Western Media who claim this but Aljazeera just went into detail about it being their stronghold not 5 minutes ago.

And I have also heard manyy reports NOT WESTERN MEDIA that say the main reason MB got so many votes in 2005 was protest votes. Folks that would never vote for the MB in a REAL election did so out of spite for the NDP & Mubarak.

I have also heard in REAL, FAIR, OPEN & Monitored Election the MB would get 10-12% not 20% or higher of the seats in Parliment tops. "NO WAY!" would the MB get more than 10% is what the spokesman for the "Parallel Parliment" set up by the opposition parties after the 2005 elections.

You agree?

[onager]

8. Well, I'm not sure...

All I can say is, during 4 years in Alexandria I never heard or saw a lot of support for the MB. Though Egyptians don't go around yakking much about their politics, obviously. Especially not to foreigners.

I also didn't hang out in the poorest central downtown neighborhoods of Alex, where the MB allegedly has most of its support. I lived in Sidi Bishr, sort of an eastern Alexandria suburb. I don't know how to describe the neighborhood in U.S. terms. "Lower working-class," I guess.

So among the Alexandrians I knew, I mostly heard negative things about the MB. For several good reasons:

1. The St. George's riots of Oct. 2005 - riots blew up around Geragis (St. George's) Coptic Xian church, in the Muharram Bey district of Alex. 3 people dead and 143 injured. The official reason was an anti-Muslim play performed 2 years earlier in the church (and its DVD release!).

What I heard unofficially was - the local MB candidate whipped up the riot to help him out in the Nov. 2005 elections. That may have been just a nasty rumor, but a lot of Alexandrians seemed to believe it.

A little more about that: http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/767/eg11.htm

2. The riots of April 2006 - 3 Coptic churches invaded by knife-wielding maniacs on Good Friday. The Egyptian govt. blamed a Lone Crazed Knifeman, which nobody believed - the attacks happened in 3 different and widely separated city districts. Huge riots erupted at All Saints' Coptic church, not far from where I lived. Tear gas, burning cars, and neighbors attacking each other's homes with axes and firebombs. (That's the same church that was car-bombed on New Year's Day 2011.) Many residents seemed to think the MB was behind the attacks, though nobody seemed to know for sure.

3. 2007, the MB released its draft program to form a new political party. Among a lot of high-minded calls for free elections and equal representation - it demanded the banning of women and non-Muslims from all political offices, and a special council of Islamic clerics to approve all legislation.

We aren't hearing it much in all the nice-making about the MB, but it's useful to remember their #1 slogan - "Islam is the solution."

4. The Gaza Riots of Jan. 2009 - Israel went into Gaza and the MB went ballistic. I remember heading out of my apartment for a bracing walk, and seeing long lines of armored cars and paddy wagons headed in the same direction, toward downtown Alex. Walk cancelled! The Alex gathering got so ugly, even the Riot Police gave up and left. And those guys don't give up easily.

Again the MB overplayed its hand, calling for Egyptians to join a jihadic army and march into Gaza. The last thing sane Egyptians want is another war with Israel. MB members also appeared at the demonstrations wearing black masks and looking like the Army Of Darkness, which didn't help.

Egyptians haven't forgotten that the MB killed Sadat in 1981, or the subsequent trial footage of a shrieking Ayman al-Zawahiri, longtime MB member and currently Osama bin Laden's right-hand man. (Zawahiri's family still lives in the very upscale, foreign-infidel-infested Cairo suburb of Maadi, or at least they did the last I heard.)

5. Finally, an article about how the MB REALLY operates in those poor neighborhoods of Alexandria: "Mouselhy wants to be popular, and so he helps out. He gives 20 pounds to anyone who is poor," said 66-year-old Mohamed Abdelghani. "As for the other guy, the only time we saw him here was when the Brothers were collecting money for Gaza." This article also has more detail about some of the other stuff I mentioned:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg19556.html

[SkyDaddy7]

9. What you are saying makes sense...

If Egypt had true open & honest elections (As much as that is possible in any democracy) the MB would not take control of the country...This is why it pisses me off that we in the West act like we do.

[laconicsax]

2. I find it prudent to distrust all religious groups.

Sure there are a handful out there for which the religious aspect is relatively incidental, but they're definitely the exception. Religion is conservative.

[Kerrytravelers]

5. This is how I generally view a politically motivated religious group until proven otherwise.

I'm willing to be proved otherwise, but my inclination is to be suspicious.

[realisticphish]

6. I've read quite a few quotes on Al Jazeera

from protestors saying that they are completely opposed to the MB in most respects, but are basically fighting the common enemy at the moment