Science vs Psuedo Science Argument: Family Feud Style

[Rozlee]

To begin with, my sister isn't a Protestant fundamentalist; she's a die hard conservative Catholic. She subscribes to the "Catholic League" magazine, which is a rag that expounds on the non-existent persecutions of Catholics and the evils of abortionists, George Soros, Muslims, Obama, global warming proponents as population control plotters; you get the picture. Plus, she listens to conservative radio continuously, which consists of mostly Fundamentalist ranters.

So, I was telling her about the Hadron Super Collider a couple of days ago. She bristled in outrage when I mentioned that it attempted to produce a mini "Big Bang" like in the creation of the universe. "Can you tell me one thing?" she asked. "What's the Big Bang?" I stared at her. "You don't know what it is?" I replied. "Oh, I know what psuedo-scientists say it is," she said. "It's an attempt to convince us that God's hand doesn't guide creation."

I was flummoxed. "You do realize that a Catholic priest postulated the theory of the Big Bang, right?" I asked her. "That he was elevated to the presidency of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. That he received a prelate for his contribution to science from Pope John XXIII?" I normally don't give props to Catholic priests or the Church, but I greatly admired Monsignor Georges Lemaitre; you have to give the devil his due.

She was flustered. "Is this one of your Wikipedia fake research stories?" She's convinced Wikipedia is the biggest propaganda tool in America. Who knows? She may be right. Now, I was the one who bristled. "Go to EWTN and do their own search engine and enter 'Big Bang' and 'Father Georges Lemaitre'. Go to the Vatican website and look him up and look up Big Bang." I was steaming. I couldn't believe that she thought that the long accepted theory of the creation of the universe was psuedo science. And I detested EWTN. See one of my earlier posts. But, I couldn't believe her ignorance. "How old do you think the universe is?" I asked curiously. She suddenly looked flustered again as well as confused; as if she'd never really given the question much thought. Seeing my advantage, I asked, "Do you think it's 6,000 years old, like some Fundamentalist think it is? That humans used to ride on dinosaurs because they were tame?" The image must have given her pause. "No, of course not. No one knows how old the universe is. It says in the Bible that a thousand years to God is as one day and a day as a thousand years. It could be millions of years old," she replied. I rolled my eyes. This was a woman who had a Master's Degree in Nursing. "Try over 15 billion years," I told her.

I decided that her Catholicism was the best way to sway her. "How about global climate change? Do you believe in that?" I quizzed. She was on surer footing now. "Global warming is just a way for abortionists to try and kill babies. To abort babies and control the population of the planet." I had her now. "Do you know that back in April, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences released a study called 'The Fate of Mountain Glaciers of the Anthropecene?' That the study states that global climate change is real; that it's caused by man and that it recommends immediate green technology to be initiated in all nations of the world to combat it?" She glared at me. "What's this academy you're talking about? I've never heard of it. It's pretty easy for any group to stick a name on themselves and claim they represent the Vatican." I couldn't believe my ears. Wait, I could. I'd seen it over and over again. The masses never knew or bothered to know about the intricacies of their own religion or it's genuine core beliefs. They didn't bother reading the bible or do anything but cherry pick the views and opinions that fit what they, themselves wanted to believe, that fed into their own worldview. I, myself, find the Catholic Church repugnant with it's cover-up and coddling of pederast priests and even it's attempt to villify the victims of those priests. But, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences is the only redeeming office in that institution. Not that they're all admirable. But, Noble Prize laureates and independent minded priest scientists are given almost carte blanche to practice their work. The Church is over-compensating for the Galileo debacle.

"Look it up on Google," I told her wearily. She was smug. "Google is a scam. You can't believe anything you read on it." Of course not, I thought. "OK, look it up on the Vatican website. Just type in Vatican," I told her, tired of her militancy. "Type up Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Father Georges Lemaitre, the Big Bang. Jeebus. You need to stop listening to those idiots on the radio. Or you need to decide if you're going to convert to a Fundamentalist Protestant or stay a Catholic." She looked horrified. "Of course I'm a Catholic! You've just been brainwashed by all your atheist books and your worship of science." I shook my head. "Here, let me write all this stuff down so you can look it up for yourself. She got up and walked away to refill her cup of coffee. "Don't bother," she told me. "I know how the devil works. Psuedo science is just another way that the devil is trying to turn us against god. I'm going to be praying real hard for you, baby girl."

I thumped my head on the table. It's like a circular firing squad. You never can walk away the winner with these people. You actually are the winner because you know the truth. But, you can never change their mindset. I keep telling myself not to get baited, but I can never resist. Not throwing their own twisted scripture in their faces, not trying to argue that there really is a million billionth of a second, otherwise how could a chain reaction start in the nucleus of an atom to cause an atomic bomb to blow up a city? I guess God just lights his Zippo in the nucleus to get the whole shebang started. Why, oh, why do I even bother?

[laconicsax]

1. And if you posted this in R/T, you'd be attacked for anti-Catholic bigotry (among other things).

What many liberal believers fail (or refuse) to realize is that people like your sister are real, and for the most part, constitute a majority of American Christianity and because of this failure, they refuse to take the problem seriously.

[awoke_in_2003]

2. +1. nt

[Rozlee]

4. The rest of my family aren't anything like she is.

I have two deacons in the family. They even believe in evolution. My sister started out believing that abortion was wrong, as the rest of my Catholic family does. Otherwise, she was pretty liberal about other social issues as are the rest of my family who are staunch liberal Democrats. Then, she started getting involved with anti-abortion groups, some of them, like ALL, really ultra radical right-wingers. Then, she started adopting their philosophy. She lived in Germany off and on over the 70s-90s since her husband was a contractor for Raytheon. She praised the German health care system to the skies, constantly telling people about the surgery she got there and compared it to the lousy ones she'd had here. Now, she believes national health care is socialistic. Because, she's been sucked in by these ultra-conservatives and absorbed their mind-sets. Her anti-abortion stance is so radical, she even believes ectopic pregnancies shouldn't be terminated. She's a nurse practitioner! Yet, she believes the drivel the anti-choice crowd says that the medical community has secret ways to prod the embryo up the tubes and into the uterus so it'll implant there, but won't do it because they like to abort babies. Uh, excuse me. I'm an RN as well. The embryo's already implanted in the tube. Moving it would cause it to--Hello!--abort.

[Rozlee]

8. That's where posting under an anonymous or avatar helps

Of course, it always still does descend into a free-for-all, with the infidels on one side scoring points, and the believers on the other side, deflecting all our debunking of the bible and it's tales of infancticide, sanctioned rape, etc., as "the will of God." No one has ever been able to rebutt Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" adequately or even really tried. It cracks me up how Glenn Beck used to always dress in colonial garb, stating Thomas Paine was his favorite founding father and even giving honor to Paine for writing the foreward to his book "Common Sense." He used to always rhapsodize about Paine. Until someone evidently told him about "The Age of Reason" and we never heard Paine mentioned again.

[Odin2005]

3. I've learned not to bother arguing, such people cannot be reasoned with.

One can only have a reasoned discussion if all sides values reason and are capable of overcoming circular thinking.

[Rozlee]

5. I normally take advice like that to heart. But, with a family member, it's hard.

Each of us thinks we can "save" the other. I guess it wouldn't be so hard if I hadn't known her when she actually was pretty liberal. I keep thinking something will click and she'll remmeber how stupid she used to think people like the ones she listens to now always seemed to her.

[rug]

6. Lemaitre is an interesting person.

He studied with Eddington, who himself was a pacifist in the Quaker tradition.

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/scientists_eddington.html

[amyrose2712]

7. Sorry, I know EXACTLY how you feel

my sister has recently become a fundie Xian, and I am a heathen. We go round and round all the time. She was on the "Obama is a radical Islamist, hellbent on making this nation an Islamic Nation and destroying christians oh and Huma Abedin Is a terrorist. The Watchman Newsletter says it and THEY NEVER LIE! Then she turned off her hearing aids and continued reading. SHe actually said "LALALA" and covered her ears. The only thing is she does suffer from mental illness, which is when this all began. So I'm with you banging my head against a brick wall. I pporterwouldn't bother, but she doea vote and seems to be a Bachmann supporter. :evilfrown: :banghead: