Church of Atheism

[Deep13]

The problem with atheism is that from an institutional point of view, religion does a lot. For people who leave religion, they ought to have some substitute for the social functions of a church etc. They ought to be able to get together regularly to discuss skepticism. Also, they ought to have some way to have atheist weddings, funerals, grief counseling, secular holidays, civic involvement etc.

[beam me up scottie]

1. From the atheist's point of view

religion does a lot of damage.
I don't think of a wedding or funeral without religion as atheistic.
As far as civic involvement, there are thousands of secular charities and volunteer organizations.
All of my holidays are secular.
Atheism to me is simply the absence of a god or gods.
We do not have a mission statement or share a common philosophy.
I have spent most of my adult life explaining to people that I do not need nor want a religion.
I don't see that as a "problem".
I see it as the solution to the problem of organized religion.

[Deep13]

2. Really? Weddings and funerals are necessarily religious?

There was no mention of god(s) when I got married. My father's widow obtained a license to do weddings for one day, permissible under MA law, and presided. We had the ceremony at her tree farm. We ate catered food and talked with the small number of guests present. I don't see how that was even remotely sectarian. Same when my father died. He was an atheist and we had an outdoor memorial were his relatives eulogized for the crowd of friends, business associates and other relatives. Some of those who spoke presented religous ideas, but generally it was about him. The ashes were spread on his farm.

These ceremonial functions are important to people and I suspect more people might abandon superstition if they had somewhere to go.

For a lot of people, it is important to be part of a community with those of like perspectives and to be part of something bigger than themselves. Mybe this is not a problem for you, but it is for me. It is easy to feel alone and adrift in a sea of superstition, especially in a town where churches outnumber taverns. I believe atheists do have a common philosophy: a rejection of the existance of the supernatural and a reliance on the rational. Also, there is strength in numbers. Fundies would like nothing better than to hang people like us from the sour apple tree.

[beam me up scottie]

5. "Weddings and funerals are necessarily religious?"

I didn't say that.

What I SAID was that I don't view secular weddings and funerals as necessarily atheistic.
And whoever plans the event gets to decide whether or not god or gods are invited or invoked, it's their choice.

"There was no mention of god(s) when I got married. My father's widow obtained a license to do weddings for one day, permissible under MA law, and presided. We had the ceremony at her tree farm. We ate catered food and talked with the small number of guests present. I don't see how that was even remotely sectarian."

It's not "sectarian".
The word I used was "secular", and that word accurately describes your ceremony.

From dictionary.com:

*****
sec·u·lar Audio pronunciation of "secular" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sky-lr)
adj.

1. Worldly rather than spiritual.
2. Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body: secular music.
3. Relating to or advocating secularism.
4. Not bound by monastic restrictions, especially not belonging to a religious order. Used of the clergy.
5. Occurring or observed once in an age or century.
6. Lasting from century to century.
*****

"These ceremonial functions are important to people and I suspect more people might abandon superstition if they had somewhere to go."

Are you telling me that people are unable to plan secular events because they have nowhere to go? Because I find that hard to believe.

"For a lot of people, it is important to be part of a community with those of like perspectives and to be part of something bigger than themselves. Mybe this is not a problem for you, but it is for me"

If you are lonely because you can't find any other atheists in your present location, I'd suggest moving.
Atheists don't form towns or communities that are exclusionary in nature, we leave that up to the religious folks.
Most of us simply prefer to live within secular societies.

"I believe atheists do have a common philosophy: a rejection of the existance of the supernatural and a reliance on the rational."

Rejection of gods and rational thought are not a philosophy.

I don't know of a single atheist who uses or would ever want to use atheism as a replacement for religion.

The only time I have EVER heard that idea was when it was coming from ignorant believers.

[Deep13]

6. Let's not get snippy, to paraphrase Al Gore.

Yes, you said "secular". I said "sectarian" because that's what I meant. Thanks for the English lesson, but I wrote exactly what I meant.

I did not say secular functions are impossible, but they are easier with some structured organization in place.

I'm not moving anywhere. I have a right to be where I am and I will be damned (figuratively) if I let the Fundys drive me out of town. Besides, not being independently wealthy makes uprooting to Boston, for example, a little difficult.

Perhaps "atheism" is not the right word when discribing a philosophy. Perhaps "skepticism" might be a better choice. Anyway, I am unwilling to be pidgeon-holed by semantics. For me, atheism is an active understanding that the world is directed by natural processes that can be understood by observation. God is irrelevant because he/she/it is not necessary to explain or understand anything. It also includes an understanding that religion is a creation of the human mind made in an effort to explain the inexplicable by people who could not accept "I have no idea" for an answer. This seems like a philosophy to me. The first scientists were called natural philosophers.

I submit that you have now heard of atheism as a substitute for religion, at least in form, by someone who is not an ignorant believer.

[beam me up scottie]

8. Who's getting snippy?

I disagreed with you and gave a definition of the word I was using since I thought you inferred that I used "sectarian" when you posted
"I don't see how that was even remotely sectarian". I apologize if you took offense.

You can define yourself however you want.
I have been fighting tooth and nail for THAT right long before I joined DU.

Personally, I refuse to define myself using their terminology and beliefs.

I consider atheism to be the default. I consider it to be normal.
I define believers as having an active, unnatural belief in god or gods.

But, like I said, define yourself.

There are plenty of believers on this forum who would agree with your definition of atheism.

And in case you haven't seen me in action, when I argue the point with THEM, I am not "snippy", I am a goddamn she-bear.

Peace

[Deep13]

13. peace

:hippie:

I'll be sure not to pray for you.

:7

[beam me up scottie]

18. Sorry!

Didn't mean to jump your post like that.
But man, oh man, have we had some knock-down drag-out bloody battles with some believers on this forum who insist atheism is a religion or a "belief system". :banghead:

I have a difficult time relating to religion because I was born and raised in one of the chosen few religion-free households.

[Deep13]

23. My wife had no religion in her house growing up...

...and she is far less tolerant of it than I am. Having once been a church-goer, I know it is at least possible for religious people to be reasonable. For her, she thinks they are all dupes. For me, atheism is a non-belief system that seeks to weed irrational faith out of my thinking and find the objective truth. Perhaps it is better described as something else, humanism for example. Someone once asked me if I demand proof for everything then what good is faith? I said I was hoping he could tell me. When someone tries to convince me of something in a passionate argument, I usually shut him or her down with, "I don't need assurances, I need evidence."

My mother is a nominal Catholic who believes in some off beat theistic things like astrology and some other stuff. She is among those who thinks that atheism is a quasi-religion that depends on who one believes. We were discussing that Jon Edwards dude, the psychic, not the Senator. She insisted that I was following a belief system that was skeptical of him rather than one that supported him, as though each view was equally valid. Invariably, she relies on a false dilemma argument to support her views. Are the throngs of people who believe him all fools? (Maybe, but one does not need to be stupid to be fooled by a pro.) That's the same argument she uses for astrology.

I had one guy at the office who sought to prove that disbelief in god was illogical. He drew a square that was composed of four smaller squares. On the left of the box he wrote "good" and "bad" and across the top there was "God" and "no God". In other words, there were four choices: there is or is not a God and the proposed existence of God is either good or bad. Of course, three of the four choices favored believe if the test is accepted at face value, but I did not. "Do you accept that God either exists or does not exist?" Answer: No. He might exist, but not be all powerful. He might exist without a heaven. Heaven might exist without a God etc., etc. As to whether the existence of god, if true, was necessarily good, I denied that too. It was better to be a free person than to be the slave of some diety. That blew his mind. Evangelicals are incapable of seeing things except in absolute terms. Then, of course came the invariable question, suppose I am wrong. I said that if I died and discovered that Greek mythology, for example, was literally true, I would be the first to apologize.

[beam me up scottie]

24. It drives some believers nuts

that they can't define us.
I've always hated labels. People don't fit in boxes.
Your mom reminds me of one of my co-workers. She is fairly sane and reasonable but she believes in ghosts.
Now, I'll be the first one to admit that we don't know everything that's out there and there is a lot of phenomena that can't be explained...yet.
But she hits the internet sites and believes everything she reads. All of the pictures that show "orbs" freak her out. Bad film, I say. Or, even more obvious, since it's the internet, isn't it possible that the photos are fake? ...nahhhhhhhhh
:banghead:

One of my favorite quotes for the simple-minded:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus

[trotsky]

9. What you describe as atheism/secularism...

sounds more like secular humanism to me. In fact, secular humanism is the actual philosophy that is typically built on atheism/skepticism.

[Deep13]

10. Well, if that's what it is called...

... then that's it.

As a side note, if evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve.

[trotsky]

11. Here, check this out:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/intro/what.html

I agree with bmus - there really isn't anything in atheism that causes us to come together. But people who are atheists or skeptics who would like the community experience that religion can provide - they often become secular humanists or even Unitarians.

[Deep13]

16. I watched a promotional video last night ...

... that the Center for Inquiry sent us. They publish a magazine called the Skeptical Inquirer. The accompanying pamphlet explained secular humanism. They showed cheezy 700 Club-ish graphics and movie footage of their over-crowded office. Apparently they are seeking funds to build more office space so people can come for skeptical seminars and do skeptical research.

[beam me up scottie]

12. As far as moving,

I hear you.

I live a half hour outside of Nashville. If there is a hell, I'm renting a duplex.

I am originally from Vermont and can't afford to move back right now.

[Deep13]

14. Yeah, I'm from the Worcester area of MA.

Very pricey, though not as bad as Beantown. Plus my law license does not work there and my wife's business is here in Dumbassburg, Ohio. Besides, being in the D party here means more than it does in a state that went 77% for Ted Kennedy in the last Senate elections.

I used to be a member of an Episcopal parish there when I was in high school. I liked it a lot, but eventually had to leave when I decided that not only is walking on water impossible, but that God probably is impossible too.

[beam me up scottie]

17. How far are you from Columbus?

I was born in Riverside Hospital.
It's sad to see Ohio go blue, one of my best friends lives in Cleveland.

It's good to know you have someplace to go when they start rounding us up, though. You know?

[Deep13]

19. Medina County

One county west of Akron. Despite our collossal effort, this county still went for Dubya by a wide margin. Mostly it was because people came out en mass to vote against their own interests because some goddamn priest told them to. Jesus! Our county judge and the D.A. were on the telephone election day trying to get people to come out and vote for JK. We had people just showing up at headquarters during the days leading up to the election asking what they could do. People were donating cell phones because we did not have enough telephones to accomodate all the volunteers. Some others from blue states took the week off to come to OH to help out. My wife and I donated some $7000 to JK and the DNC, but it just didn't matter.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Damn that sucks.

The only good thing about living here last November was that I had no expectations.
My next door neighbor had a list of which candidates to vote for from her preacher.
And she is a single black mother, talk about voting against your interests...

[YankeyMCC]

25. Don't you mean

Wistah?

I'm from MA. Live just on the other side of the People's Republic in Arlington.

BTW: Not Beantown (Tsk tsk)...It's the Hub of the Universe.

[Deep13]

26. Wicked good!

Yeah, I lived in Less-tah just west of Wuh-stah.

It's only the hub of the universe to those who live east of 128. The rest of the state might as well be a foreign country. Of course here in the Mississippi of the north, people think MA is a foreign country.

[YankeyMCC]

3. You are touching on something

I have tried to discuss here before.

We need to show the community and nation what we would do if in charge. But the problem is with that word "we" and BMUS gets right to the heart of that problem. Atheism is simply a world view that does not include believing in things for which there is no evidence or relevance, namely gods.

Yes there are a lot of secular organizations that do good work but usually they are not doing it "in the name of atheism (humanism, etc...)" so the fact that the good work has nothing to do with a theistic mythology gets sort of lost in the shuffle. The members of the organization may or may not be theists or atheists so the fact that it is secular is just a side affect and seen as unimportant by the general public.

And if there is one thing that will unite atheists (other than persecuting xians :evilgrin: ) it abhorring anything done "in the name of...." something. It can always lead to a dangerous situation in power distribution.

It's a conundrum. I do believe more could be done to show the positive and progressive nature of an atheistic approach to the world. But how to bring together people that only have a lack of belief in gods into unity (remember despite the fact that fundy xians are in power in the repuke party there are plenty of repuke atheists, I know a couple myself, "atheists" are very diverse group of people)? And how to do it in a way that makes these generally anti-organization group of people comfortable is another problem.

I certainly don't know the answer.

[shrike]

4. Elayne Boosler made up one

At the Church of Atheism, the opening hymn was "One hundred bottles of beer on the wall." People would get up and say, "Before I came here, I was blind. And now -- I'm still blind." (Boosler does stand-up.)

[onager]

7. Heh! So did Paula Poundstone...

"I'm an atheist. What are we supposed to do, go door-to-door handing out a book full of blank pages?

'Here, read this...'"

[Deep13]

15. Carlin said there is an atheist heaven,

but there is no one in it.

[shrike]

28. Funny

I love Carlin

[YankeyMCC]

20. Disrupting other churches

You know now that I think more about this I think I have a mission for the Atheist Church.

Other churches send their priests to secular events such as; graduations, Town Meetings, etc...to waste the first few (or many) minutes of these events with wishes and prayers to mythical beings.

So we form the Church of Atheism and go to these other churches and insist on reading/speaking at the opening of their religious ceremonies.

Priest: "Todays nonvocation will be given by Mr Smith."

Atheist: "Thank you sir," he steps up to the podium "I'll be brief. Get the hell up and go do something productive! Or at least go enjoy the day!"

Walks away.


===

Or just read from Darwin's book or something. :)

[Deep13]

22. Reminds me of Shatner's get-a-life speech.

We should start demanding that the Constitution be stapled to the cross in every church.

[fshrink]

27. The problem with atheism

is that courage and honesty are extremely rare and stupidity cultivated.

[Deep13]

29. There thou hath said it.

The road to enlightenment is long and lonely.

Of course, if people were really cultivated to become stupid, then any idiot could come along, gain their trust and take over...x( ...um, oh yeah, I forgot.

:hangover: