Anti-theists

[Modem Butterfly]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3679082&mesg_id=3685353

Seems like there's always been two distinct groups of "non believers" on DU.

The majority of them are atheists and agnostics who don't dig God themselves, and might take exception to the 10 commandments being in courthouses or other such public displays, but aside from that aren't too offended by others' belief systems.

The other group, whom I call the anti-theists, are the ones who seem to have this deep seeded hatred of God and anyone who believes in Him. I'll leave it to their psychologist to determine where such irrational views come from (after all, why devote so much energy to hating something you don't even believe in) but the threads started by these kinds often turn into flame fests.

I suspect some of this latter group are also role playing, if you get my meaning. Helps perpetuate the "Liberals are enemies of God" lie that you hear on the 700 Club.

So to answer your question, the "anti-claus" would be someone who had an irrational hatred of Santa. Like the Burgermeister Meisterburger from that old cartoon.

[BiggJawn]

1. Difficult, isn't it?

Isn't the correct term "Deep-SEATED hatred of god..."?

And the Theists don't hate US?

How am I supposed to feel when I see shit like "Every KNEE shall BEND, Every Head shall BOW"?

Maybe some day future generations will read about the brave boys Kneejerk, Trashrack, and Tobedwego, who went to GITMO rather than give in and bow their heads to something they didn't believe in.....

[trotsky]

2. It's simple to tell what an "anti-theist" is.

If you don't slobber over how religion is simply another point of view, you're an anti-theist.

[onager]

3. I'm getting more and more impatient...

...with the "you must show respect" line, too.

Somewhere in that thread about the lightning strike, I remember somebody whining: "You shouldn't make fun of something millions of people believe in."

Well, shit-fire, as my grandma used to say! In the future here on DU, I'll make sure I don't poke fun at Nazism, Fascism, or Stalinism. Those Somethings all had millions of devoted followers, too.

The plain fact is, I don't have any respect for Magical Thinkers. And it's getting harder and harder to pretend I do.

[beam me up scottie]

4. Then don't make fun of lil boots either.

Or Raygun, or the BeeGees or Barney, or ...

[Modem Butterfly]

5. Damn that thread was fun

At one point, someone kept insisting that by praying, the family was doing "something". I pointed out that there were many people in Florida in 2000 who were praying for Al Gore to win, but who didn't vote for whatever reason. I said it would have been nice if those people had voted, too. The poster was speechless.

[progressoid]

6. Ha ha, sorry I missed that one.

I think the final "post" is telling. This thread has worn out any usefulness it may have had
Hmmm, Kinda like religion!

[Taxloss]

7. I agree MB.

It's one thing to be a pure atheist and argue your corner, but there does seem to be a roving band of other who seem to thrive on doing nothing but riling Christians. They seem to know little of either Christian or atheist thought. They give us a bad name, but there not a lot we can do about that.

PS I miss all the really interesting threads. Damn you five-hour time difference! And damn you Francois Mitterrand, fourth president of the French Fifth Republic!

[beam me up scottie]

8. Hey Tax,

This idgit is from your corner of the world, ever scuffled with him here?
I really insulted him a few months ago (he hates women as much as atheists) and he has me on ignore.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=228&topic_id=7841&mesg_id=8337

[BiggJawn]

12. Oh, that was rich!

"It would be interesting to learn more on the subject of Darwin's beliefs. I believe I read in an edition of Brittanica that later in life, Darwin regretted not having devoted himself more to the study of his faith. If so, I shouldn't imagine it would be an uncommon regret. I personally have heard it from someone who, I think, realised (correctly) that she wasn't long for this life."

Bet they believe the disproven myth that Carl Sagan asked for a Priest on his deathbed, too...

Out of all the things I'll regret with my last breaths, not going to church is NOT going to be one of them.

I'm cool with letting the Mythists alone in their fantasy world...UNTIL they start treating me like an ignorant child who just hasn't heard the "Good News" in the RIGHT way....

[beam me up scottie]

14. I despise that

blowhard.
I hope Kraklen wipes the floor with him.

[onager]

22. Oh crap, not THAT myth again...

To see exactly where the BS about Darwin and his deathbed conversion originated, do a google on "Lady Hope."

You'll have to search for an OBJECTIVE version. There are lots of lying Xer websites that try to polish this dried-out old turd with the usual "Maybes" and "What ifs."

The facts:

1. Lady Hope was a British evangelist (what a surprise!). When she visited the U.S. on a lecture tour, she stopped off at Dwight Moody's famous Xian spookatorium and wowed the students with her accounts of visiting Charles Darwin on his deathbed.

2. She claimed that Darwin confessed his regret in releasing The Origin of Species "in haste" when he was "still a young man." As even dumbasses like me know, Darwin was over 50 when he published the book and had already waited over 20 years to do so. Not exactly "in haste."

3. Lady Hope also got a few other minor details wrong. Like, er, the month and year Darwin died.

4. Naturally, the story of Darwin's deathbed conversion soon became a staple of Xian proselytizing.

Unfortunately, it was refuted over and over by the people who really were sitting with Darwin when he died--his own family.

Darwin's daughter said flatly that she doubted Lady Hopeless had ever even met her father, and that he certainly didn't recant evolution or anything else on his deathbed. He died as he had lived most of his life--a happy agnostic.

[arwalden]

42. "Out of all the things I'll regret with my last breaths,"

<< Out of all the things I'll regret with my last breaths, not going to church is NOT going to be one of them. >>

Amen!

[Modem Butterfly]

16. Not my opinion, but that of an anti-atheist theist

An atheist can be angry at the concept of or belief in deity without actually believing in said deity, or any other deity for that matter. Some folks are angrier than others, and some anti-atheist theists will read all sorts of things into that anger.

[toddaa]

9. I'm a tolerant "live and let live" atheist, but I have my limits

IMO, antitheists aren't doing the rest of us any favors. On the other hand, on a few occasions I have been forced to unleash a torrent of obscenity laced blasphemy rants that would make even a Madalyn O'Hair blush in order to convince an overzealous proselytizer that I was beyond redemption. I'm not proud of those moments, but I'm not apologetic either.

[rexcat]

10. I am also a "live and let live" atheist but...

lately I have been pushed to my upper tolerance level. Every time I turn around someone is cramming their xtian beliefs down my throat. It gets tiring after a while.

[Modem Butterfly]

19. I think that what some folks call an anti-theist...

...is just an atheist pushed too far.

[Modem Butterfly]

17. Call me an a-anti-theist, I don't believe in anti-theists.

I don't believe in anti-theists. But I do believe in anti-atheist theists. Say that three times fast!

[CarbonDate]

11. I don't think it's right to belittle the theists....

...after all, most of us were there at some point. On the other hand, we don't have to respect their beliefs any more than we do the beliefs of the ancient Greeks or Romans. The simple use of the word "mythology" in conjunction with the word "Christian" is enough to rile a lot of them.

The difference between your live-and-let-live atheist and your alleged "anti-theist" is that the anti-theist says what the rest of the atheists are thinking, kind of like how a fundie Chrisitian says what the rest of the Christians are thinking (e.g., "Those atheists are going to burn in Hell...") but are too polite to say.

That said, we don't have to pick fights with the theists, but if they say something like, "How can you not believe in God?" and don't like our answer, then they need to reconsider whether they want to be starting such discussions with us.

I won't debate a theist on the existence of deities, much like I won't debate a child on the existence of the Easter Bunny. It's simply beneath me. Let them believe what they want, as long as they leave me and mine out of it.

[beam me up scottie]

13. It's not that simple, unfortunately.

A few years ago I wouldn't have even mentioned the fact that I was an atheist.
We do not have that luxury anymore.
Anytime I see someone malign an atheist, I make it my business.
We are not considered patriots nor Americans by the BFEE and their ilk.
We are tolerated by most and understood by few.

Do an experiment, advertise the fact that you are an atheist.
Wait and see how long it takes before someone challenges you.
Our very existence is seen as a threat by some, an insult by others.

And then we have the anti-atheists, a whole other breed.
How would you handle this ?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3990322&mesg_id=4027121

[Modem Butterfly]

20. Hey, it's fuckass!

Man, that thread was funny. But you know what makes me sad? That said poster continues to use DU as a testing ground for her hatred of free-thinkers.

[trotsky]

21. But, but, but...

Modem Butterfly, I thought *I* was your only fuckass!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3679082&mesg_id=3684472

I think I'm going to cry now... :cry:

[onager]

25. Maybe we could be...

Fundamentalist Atheist Fuckasses? Or "FAF" for short. I think that sounds sort of jaunty and sporting.

We could even turn it into a secret society, like the Illuminati fnord or something.

23!

[CarbonDate]

27. Ugh. Even as a pagan....

...I noticed the strong martyr complex that a lot of Christians have. This is a problem with their faith, since just as Muslims believe that dying for Allah will guarantee them a spot in Heaven, Christians believe that being persecuted for Jesus will do the same for them. So they look at any slights, real or perceived, as a form of persecution.

Honestly, if they spent a day in our world (either as religious minorities or atheists), they'd break.

When I was a Wiccan, people just assumed I was a Satan worshiper, so I stopped telling anybody I was Wiccan. So in some ways, I see becoming an atheist as a step up, sociologically speaking.

How would I handle that particular martyr? I'd ignore him. Their entire religion is based around weeping and gnashing of teeth, so I'd leave him to it.

[beam me up scottie]

28. I like to compare how atheists relate

to intolerance to how the religious do.

Most atheists are not offended, hurt, upset, indignant or hysterical when we are maligned. We don't take it personally.

When we get insulted or attacked, it's usually more of an ignorance issue as opposed to a "burn the heretic" one.

Sure, we get angry and we attempt to correct, but we never sit in the corner and cry about how persecuted we are.

Kind of like comparing Mr. Spock to Bones. :evilgrin:

[CarbonDate]

33. We can laugh at them....

...because we know they're wrong. They get upset because, deep down, they know we're right.

[Modem Butterfly]

18. I don't bother to debate theists on evolution

Since evolution, strictly speaking, does not require the existence or abscene of gods, and even if evolution were disproven in totality tomorrow (yeah, right) that would not prove the existance of deity.

[NMMNG]

15. Too much chaos for me

I'm the standard breed atheist myself. I'd prefer to stay out of the religion fracas entirely as I don't give a hoot about god, who believes in him or what they do about him. Why should I care if people want to believe in fairy tales, waste hours a week rolling in the aisles of a church and throw their money away? And in earlier days I could have just complacently sat back and had a "live and let live" attitude.

However the current climate in US politics makes it impossible for that as the reich-wing theocrats are doing everything in their power to take over and make life a living hell for people like myself. They are working to meld fundamentalism and government in a way that will turn back the clock and unleash a new dark age. Therefore I have to engage with them. I must fight their evil rhetoric with the truth, or I will find myself (along with others like me) in a world I don't want to live in.

[JNelson6563]

23. I can account for some of it

I remember after I thought my way out of religion, was I ticked I had been so duped! I was also ticked that so many others were also duped and went along without question. I had figured it out and now it seemed so plain to me! How could they not get it too??

And what a scam religion is!

Yes, I was angry and ready to brawl with any believer any time, just leave them a sobbing mass on the ground after I'd enlighten them about their hateful bible-god.

Time passes. I was able to better relate to the mindset in peace. Mostly I feel sorry for them. Every once in a while some silly believer will push my buttons and they will be served up some unpleasant facts but, for the most part, I am content to live and let live.

I suspect many who are anti-theists are newly arrived atheists. I also believe some are angry forever, having been mistreated in some way by their religion.

Just my .0125

Julie

[reprobate]

24. JN, you said a mouthful. I'm afraid I'm one of the angry ones.

Not for having been mistreated by MY religion, but for being mistreated as a child by some of the bigger kids of ANOTHER religion.

That seems to be a thread that runs thru the entire history on Mankind. And MANis the operative word, as women seem to seldom be involved in the religious atrocities. On the positive side, look how much larger the population would be without the religious killing each other.

I do try to keep my anger under control, but when the proselytizers attack me, it's difficult.

And I do agreethat so many are duped into religion. The perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

[onager]

26. Let's have some Irony, it's good for our blood...

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up your remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your Gawd like a soldier...

(Rudyard "White Man's Burden" Kipling, managing to unwittingly suggest that maybe Allah's women can kick ass on Jehovah's well-armed Xian warriors...

Usual Boring Historical Context: he was writing about the various 19th-century British disasters in Afghanistan, culminating in the massacre of an army at Gandemak, IIRC. Somehow or other, the British during this time had about 57 different instances of "the first time a Western army was beaten by godless native insurgents"...the Afghans, the Indian Sepoys, the Zulus, etc. etc.)

[JNelson6563]

31. You won't always be though

at least it's not likely. Mistreatment at the handds of religious seems to make it harder to shake though.

You're right on the common thread throughout history. It will be with us always too. Ugh.

Julie

[NMMNG]

29. When I "lost my religion" I had a similar reaction

For the first week or so I felt betrayed--I was thinking "people have been lying to me all my life". Then I got over it and felt very free. I only get angry when believers (particularly fundies) get in my face with their rabid BS, or I experience them engaging in harmful practices on me or others. Otherwise I'm content to live and let live.

[JNelson6563]

30. Took me much longer than a week

so you are ahead of me there. I too had the "been lied to all my life" thing. Of course all those telling the lie believe it to be true and the thought of not believing the lie terrifies them.

I too felt free when I got over it. :toast:

Julie

[Modem Butterfly]

32. The Atheist, by Robert W. Service

My Father Christmas passed away
When I was only seven
At twenty-one, alack a-day
I lost my hope of heaven
Yet not in either lies the curse:
The hell of it's because
I don't know which loss hurt the worse
My god or Santa Claus

[really annoyed]

34. I missed that thread...

But I do have a question which a lot of "non-theists" have brought up in other secular message boards.....

How can you hate something you don't believe exists? Many a time, I was always asked why I "hated" God. Why would you waste your time hating something you have no firm belief in? I don't. I don't worry if "God" likes me or not!

It's like saying - "I hate unicorns!"

Anyway, I hope I got my point across!

[TheHelplessLlama]

35. You run into all kinds

if you know where to look. I was a member for The Atheist Network for about a year and in that time, I learned that you can't change anything with these people.

Every week was the same thing. A self-proclaimed "intelligent christian searching for debate" would stroll in and start the chat room equivalent of a brawl. The atheists would respectively try to one-up the person in a debate using the bible as fodder, whereas the anti-theists, as you called them (I think I'll adopt that term if you don't mind), would just provoke the person. If there's one thing a christian doesn't like to hear it's that they're throwing their lives away.

These distinct groups exist everywhere, but there are alot of oddballs out there that just don't seem to fit into either one.

I on the other hand, am the poster child for the first kind it would seem.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Hey THL,

welcome to DU and to our Evil Atheist Lair !
Sounds like you've been round the block a time or two.
:hi:

[CarbonDate]

37. Using the Bible is a bad idea....

By allowing the discussion to be framed in their terms, we've essentially conceded the debate to them. By acknowledging that their book has any virtue, we treat their point of view as valid.

I will not debate a Christian in Biblical terms. If a child wants to argue that cats can talk, and they point to "The Cat in the Hat" as proof, I'm not going to argue particulars of Dr. Seuss's text; I'm simply going to say that it's fiction and move on.

[TheHelplessLlama]

40. And that's usually what it came down to

Most often, bringing up the bible was bringing it up to show inconcistencies and contradictions to prove it is not infallible. Any book that contradicts itself in the same chapter (the origin of man in Genesis is a fine example, though there are plenty throughout) is clearly not something that will stand up in a debate.

I guess I should have explained myself better. Using the bible to debate theists is more like using the bible to show it's worthlessness in a debate, the longer you avoid it, the longer theists won't shut up about it. I guarantee you, that they're going to want to use their bible as proof the same way we'd use any hard data.

[BlueEyedSon]

38. I don't hate "believers", but I think they are childish, gullible and are

totally fucking up the world. The religious "moderates" just provide cover for the wackos. Why should we allow a mass delusion/mental illness be socially acceptable?

http://www.samharris.org/

[uberotto]

39. Debate or Sport?

Some people view a discussion of Religion as a Debate. A calm, rational exchange of opinions with the goal being to convince the other side that you views or beliefs are valid.

Some people view a discussion of Religion as a Sport. An angry, often inflammatory argument pitting one participants beliefs against another’s. There is no illusion of trying to change the other sides views, it is simply a competition to see who can maintain the argument the longest without resorting to personal attacks.

Are the people who engage in this "Sport" doing harm to the public's view of all atheists? I would have to say No, simply because, to the "700 Club" type evangelical, the fact that you are an atheist, even a really, really polite atheist, means that you are capable of committing the most unspeakable atrocities imaginable against your fellow man. And since you are capable of doing such bad things, to them it is perfectly reasonable to assume that you already have done these things.

[leftofthedial]

41. hate "god"?

or just hate the deleterious effects of religion?

I guess I'm one of those you talk about.

I abhor what religion has done and continues to do to our species

If "god" is the creature described in the Christian bible (especially the old testament), then I would hate it if it did exist because it is a narcissistic, sadistic psychopath.