I had a wonderful conversation with a Buddhist last night.

[Taxloss]

An old friend of mine was in London and we met up to debate the nature of truth. OK, that's not true. We met up to watch "Lost" which premiered on British TV last night. But we had drinks and supper beforehand and had a great talk, several hours long. (As we always do - it's why I love him.)

He was curious about the nature of my atheism. (He wants, in the gentlest and kindest way, to convert me to Buddhism.) I told him the long story about how I converted to Christianity and how I left it. I extolled the value of logic and the rational approach; I said I could not bring myself to believe in an embodied deity. He agreed, and talked of the nature of the divinity Buddhists believe in. I demurred, stating that empiricism was the tool we had to interpret the universe, and rejection of that tool was a foolish move. We debated the value and nature of empiricism for a bit.

Then I said: "What I don't understand is that Buddhism teaches that desire is a problem, indeed the only problem. Yet Buddhism represents a desire for truth. Isn't that a paradox?"

And he said: "I think you just understood Zen."

The end of the conversation was "no sale", but I was left wondering the extent that my now-firm atheism is a reaction to my experience at the hands of a monotheistic and non-philosophical religion and my love of science contrasted with my hatred of "magic" and superstition. (My fiend last night called science "the modern religion" when we were discussing empiricism - I must admit I scoffed.)

Anyway, it was all very thought-provoking.

[BurtWorm]

1. Pardon this ignorant question but...

Aren't many Buddhists atheists? Or is that a myth?

[shrike]

2. I thought they did not believe in a personal God, the way Christians do

Although I may be completely wrong.

[progressoid]

5. Hmmm...

I suppose in the western concept of god, they are without a god but they have a complicated afterlife structure...

The fruits of our actions ripen in the future. In Buddhism this could mean this life, or the next. Linked to the Buddha's teaching on karma, therefore, is the notion of rebirth and realms of existence other than the human realm.

Traditionally, six realms are referred to: the Hell worlds, the realm of the hungry ghosts, the animal world, the human realm, the realm of the jealous gods and the heavens. Depending on one's actions, a person is reborn in one of these realms. The best realm to be born into is the human realm is this affords the best opportunity for gaining enlightenment.

Ultimately, enlightenment doesn't mean meeting your maker, so in that sense they don't have a god to worship. I have read about Christians who are also practicing Buddhists. Go figure.

[Taxloss]

6. They don't believe in an anthropomorphised God.

But they blieve that there is a value to reality beyond a pure absence, apparently.

[alarcojon]

3. To me, Buddhism is a quest for truth here on Earth.

Thich Nhat Hanh, for example, says that we can come to see for ourselves that death is an illusion, and therefore it is not to be feared. But not because of any issues with an afterlife.

[Taxloss]

7. The way it was presented to me was as a quest for a personal truth

about one's self. Which makes sense to me, but just seems to be mysticism where empiricism might work.

[alarcojon]

12. I hear you

[trotsky]

4. Hmm

"I think you just understood Zen."

See, that's what annoys me about Buddhism. It seems like if you get to some question that seems difficult or unanswerable or, like in this case, contradictory, then you pull out the old "Zen" card.

My atheist creed: SHIT HAPPENS.

Works for me.

[Taxloss]

8. Yes, it does sometimes seem like a bit of a get-out clause.

But I can almost see what he meant; almost. I get the vague sensation of something just beyond my grasp.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Maybe "zen" is Chinese for

"God works in mysterious ways."

[Arianrhod]

11. No, not really.

Zen understands that any desire is a retaining of attachment to worldly things, and deep adherents strive to remove even the desire for truth and enlightenment from their minds. However, this probably isn't possible to do and remain living--or at least, to remain human. Zen understands this, too.

Paradox? Absolutely. But there are many empirical paradoxes in science as well, yet no one dismisses them simply because they're difficult concepts to grasp. For example, in which direction does electric current flow? Some EEs say that electrons flow from negative to positive, while others say holes flow from positive to negative. Now, "holes" aren't really substances the way electrons are, because they are actually precisely what their name implies: gaps left behind as electrons move. IOWs, they are a part of electron-flow theory. Yet some superconductor theories require the use of holes--which, in fact, would demand a completely different way of looking at the phenomenon.

In the same way, Zen's use of paradox is not a cop-out. The point of the philosophy is to remove habitual patterns of thinking, in order to see the world in ways we wouldn't normally.

[toddaa]

14. Shit Happens

SHIT HAPPENS
in various world religions


TAOISM: Shit happens.

CONFUCIANISM: Confucius say, "Shit happens".

ZEN: (What is the sound of shit happening?)

JESUITISM: If shit happens and when nobody is watching, is it really shit?

ISLAM: Shit happens if it is the will of Allah.

COMMUNISM. Equal shit happens to all people.

CATHOLICISM: Shit happens because you are bad.

PSYCHOANALYSIS: Shit happens because of your toilet training.

SCIENTOLOGY: Shit happens if you're on our shit list.

ZOROASTRIANISM: Bad shit happens, and good shit happens.

UNITARIANISM: Maybe shit happens. Let's have coffee and donuts.

RIGHT-WING PROTESTANTISM: Let this shit happen to someone else.

JUDAISM: Why does shit always happen to US?

REFORM JUDAISM: Got any Kaopectate?

MYSTICISM: What weird shit!

AGNOSTICISM: What is this shit?

ATHEISM: I don't believe this shit!

NIHILISM: Who needs this shit?

AZTEC: Cut out this shit!

QUAKER: Let's not fight over this shit.

FORTEANISM: No shit??

12-STEP: I am powerless to cut the shit.

VOODOO: Hey, that shit looks just like you!

NEWAGE: Visualize shit not happening.

DEISM: Shit just happens.

EXISTENTIALISM: Shit doesn't happen; shit is.

SECULAR HUMANISM: Shit evolves.

CHRISTIAN SCIENCE: Shit is in your mind.

BUDDHISM: Shit happens, but pay no mind.

SHINTOISM: Shit is everywhere.

HINDUISM: This shit has happened before.

WICCA: Mix this shit together and make it happen!

HASIDISM: Shit never happens the same way twice.

THEOSOPHY: You don't know half of the shit that happens.

DIANETICS: Your mother gave you shit before your were born.

SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST: No shit on Saturdays.

JEHOVAH's WITNESSES: No shit happens until Armageddon.

MOONIES: Only happy shit really happens.

HOPI: Corn fertilizer happens.

BAHA'I: It's all the same shit.

STOICISM: This shit is good for me.

OBJECTIVISM: Our shit is good for you.

EST: If my shit bothers you, that's your fault.

REAGANISM: Don't move; the shit will trickle down.

FASCISM: Shit makes the trains run on time.

CARGO CULT: A barge will come and take all the shit away.

EMACS: Hold down Control-Meta-Shit.

DISCORDIANISM: Some funny shit happened to me today.

RASTAFARIANISM: Let's smoke this shit.

CHARISMATIC: This is not shit and it doesn't smell bad.

MASONIC: Shit happens, but we can't discuss it during Lodge.

RED CROSS: Shit happens - send money.

[Synnical]

10. I wish I had such a friend!

Anyway, my understanding of Buddhism is, hmm, how do I phrase this, that you go thru a series of (internal personal) questions about life, et al, and when you get to the point when the answer is neither yes or no, you have reached Zen, or not reached Zen?

But, it's the abacus thing, it has to be yes or no or you haven't reached an answer at all. (Very contradictory in my mind.)

But, as far as I know, Buddhists hold no belief in heaven nor hell nor reincarnation.

Correct if I'm wrong and I know I'm wording this wrong . . . and contradicting myself.

I'm so confused. ;-)

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale

[NMMNG]

15. Most Buddhists believe in reincarnation

And some are of the opinion that you are not a "real" Buddhist if you don't believe in it. (Yes, sadly there are some of those types even in Buddhism

Buddhism does have a Heaven and Hell . But it is much like the Judeo-Christian H&H from what I've read.

And many practitioners of Zen are fond of saying you don't "reach" Zen, You're already there .

[toddaa]

13. Eastern philosophy and atheism

In the West, we try to divide Zen and Daoism into philosophical and religious parts. It doesn't work. With Daoism, the common misconception is that religious Daoism is a corruption of pure philosophical Daoism. Reality is more ambiguous. The first thing you have to get rid of, if you are ever going to grasp Zen or Dao, is your Aristotlean mindset of either/or. It just doesn't work. Zen koans were designed for this purpose. Eastern mysticism can be boiled down to this: there is reality and their is your perception of reality. One is concrete, the other abstract. Once you grasp this, the religious trappings become far more ambiguous. Daoists don't worship gods, they simply use them as reference points for comprehending the incomprehensible.

The cool thing about Zen is it's a religion not based on faith, but doubt. If you don't concern yourself with the Mahayana trappings of Zen Buddhism, I think you will find that its practice is quite compatible with atheism. After all, there is nothing to pray to in Zen (or Dao) because there is no one there to answer you.