wow, normally I don't feel this way as a result of my atheism

[Bill McBlueState]

But after reading people's responses to the oh-so-offensive idea that *gasp* the cross is an exclusively Xian symbol not shared by the rest of the world... I'm feeling sort of paranoid about being an atheist. The assumption of Xianity as "standard" is really deeply entrenched, even at DU.

Nothing new, I guess, but today's flamewars brought it all home.

[Taxloss]

1. Where was this thread? I just heard about it.

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that people could flame atheists for thinking that on DU, and I'd like to see it with my own eyes.

[Modem Butterfly]

2. As the person responsible, here you go

Here's my thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4367516

Here's a follow-up by Marnieworld:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4369987

[beam me up scottie]

4. I am so sorry, MB for the abuse you took.

I wish I had known, I would have had your back.

Well, I haven't yet made it all the way through the first thread because I got so angry I had to go outside for a minute.

Very enlightening, isn't it?

I had no idea so many of our friends felt this way.

We were just barely being tolerated, apparently.

Silly me, I had mistaken it for acceptance.



it's times like this I want to take up smoking again...
because cigarette smoke is offensive and unacceptable, just like the presence of an uppity atheist

[Modem Butterfly]

6. Thanks sweetie!

It was a crappy afternoon, but I've gotten some nice PMs.

I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm really not. It is enlightening though. No matter how much they might want us to go away, we're not going anywhere.

[beam me up scottie]

7. There were some neutral DUers

calling for tolerance but the poor souls were run over by the villagers.

Dare you to start another one!

[beam me up scottie]

19. Remind you of anybody?

[Taxloss]

5. It was a revolting display of ignorant religious chauvinism

by people who should know better. MB, it's shocking that some of those posts attacking you are still undeleted.

[salvorhardin]

23. MB, sorry I wasn't there to help out

I was still way pissed over the thread in the science forum from the previous night and then was away all day. When I finally did get back and saw the heat you were taking in there I was about ready to give up on DU altogether. Still plan on taking a bit of a break from posting. A good reminder that intolerance always lies just beneath the surface.

[Modem Butterfly]

27. 's'allright

It happens sometimes. Please don't stay away too long. The voices of freethinkers and clear-minded rationalists are needed more than ever on DU!

[beam me up scottie]

3. I am outraged.

I had no idea what was going on in those threads or I would have stood up for us as well.

What the hell is wrong with people in this place?

I thought it was tense around here lately, but that mob mentality is beyond the pale.

[onager]

8. Locked before I got to 'em, too

Sorry they came after you like that, MB. You can bet they'd be singing a different tune if the situation were changed just a little.

One guy noted that 25% of the Iraq dead were "no preference." Then he ventured the opinion that they probably wouldn't have a preference about a cross memorializing them, either.

Say what?

We had "NO PREF" on our dogtags because the military didn't allow the terms "atheist," "agnostic," "freethinker," etc.

Asshat.

Frankly, I'm surprised that "NO PREF" is still around. The military has been allowing "Buddhist" and "Wiccan" and such for years, so I thought by now they might allow "atheist."

Oh, I forgot about that Typical Majority Thinking...which was so much in evidence on those locked threads.

If they can refuse to give us our proper name, then obvviously we don't exist! Bingo!

[beam me up scottie]

10. I had to fight tooth and nail

to get the Corps to put "no pref" on mine.

Our whole lives are spent being boxed and shelved and told to shut up and wait patiently while everybody else prays or says the pledge or performs some other effing meaningless-to-us ritual.

I'm sick to death of hearing it here.

Man, if they wanted to shut us up, they went about it ALL the wrong way.:evilgrin:

[enlightenment]

21. I was in the AF in the late 70s/80s and they allowed

me to put agnostic on my tags . . .
And MB, I'm sorry you had to go through that -- I completely agree with your original assessment. Once the crosses were down, they could have considered something less exclusive.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

9. I'm appalled about those threads

It really pains me to see such ignorance and ill-civility on this website. It seems to be the standard way to conduct discussion these days.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Shut up.

:evilgrin:

[Anarcho-Socialist]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

13. .

[beam me up scottie]

14. Have any of the mods ever asked you about that?

They must do a double take.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

15. I used to do an even better trick

but that would have to be for a private message :evilgrin:

[beam me up scottie]

16. You'd better not scare me!

:spank:
I got a message from Skinner last night for a donation and until I read it I was positive that I had made one smart ass remark too many.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

17. Don't worry. I'm not able to do the particular trick

I used to do. I'll message you about what I mean.

[beam me up scottie]

18. RIP

So young...

[rexcat]

20. I am very disappointed in some of the long time

posters who attacked you. I had some respect for some of those posters, before reading the first thread, but I think I will need to reconsider! So much intolerance from so called intellectual types, good grief!

[Zenlitened]

25. I agree. The vitriol coming from some very recognizable names...

... was pretty surprising.

Yet some of the same people arguing "it's just a symbol" seem to be all up in arms that crosses and flags were "desecrated." Not what the crosses and flags symbolize, but the actual objects themselves. :crazy:

[noamnety]

22. I've been planning a memorial thing for veteran's day

and a local group offered us their crosses. I turned them down for two reasons.

First, it looks too much like the abortion crosses for my liking. That's just an association I have now with those rows and rows of white crosses.

Second, like you said, it's not a universal symbol. As an atheist who served in the army, I didn't appreciate the post in one of those threads claiming that those 25% who checked "no preference" wouldn't care, because they have no preference. Maybe it's changed, but when I was in, atheist wasn't a choice - the army refused to acknowledge that people were atheists. Your only option was "no preference." In fact, I did have a preference - NONE.

I don't feel as strongly about this because it doesn't affect my family personally ... but if it were my child killed, I wouldn't want their name on a cross, any more than I would want to find out some fundie group had taken a fetus I'd aborted and done one of their weird christian burial ceremonies with it. It's personally insulting.

It's a tough situation, because I support Cindy 100%. And at the same time I find the attitude that "it's only a minority" that isn't Christian extremely troubling.

[dad]

37. I still have my dog tags = they say NO RELIGIOUS PREF

and I quite clearly remember telling them atheist.
I was in 1992-96

[JNelson6563]

24. Such great examples of the love of Jesus

ugh. It seems no matter how otherwise intelligent/rational/logical, for some when religion enters the discussion at all you're dealing with an emotion based thinker (which IMo is extremely unintelligent).

Julie

[beam me up scottie]

26. Emotion based thinker.

Spot on!

Reason and logic go right out the window.

[A HERETIC I AM]

28. You have to pick your battles.........

after reading both threads I struggled on whether or not i should wade in here, but here goes......

ModemButterfly...From reading your posts I have the opinion that you are an intelligent, lucid person with compassion and the conviction of your opinions (here it comes) BUT i think this is perhaps one of those opinions that might have been better stated in perhaps a more diplomatic way, or better yet, one that, in retrospect, left to this forum. It seems to me that upon calmer reflection, you might think you were doing a bit of tilting at windmills.

Like many that post on this forum on DU, i am MOST CERTAINLY an Atheist. I think that overt suggestions that there is a sky fairy looking after us all is not only childish but intellectually primitive thinking. I think that the assumption made by most Americans (And apparently, most DU'ers) that a simple X shape in a particular orientation and used in a particular way COULD NEVER BE OFFENSIVE is, quite frankly, offensive.

This is, I hope, one area of DU where I can say (Because it doesn't appear on the main page of latest threads - if it did, i couldn't) that it is my opinion that folks that actually hold onto the idea of an anthropomorphic super Deity (The god of Abraham and Isaac, specifically) as a real thing have quite frankly, not given it enough rational, logical thought and are therefore, for lack of a better way of putting it, deluded. And in many cases, deluded ENTIRELY because they are too fucking lazy to do the investigation and research into a body o beliefs they hold dear SPECIFICALLY because said investigation will tend to shred the nice, comfy security blanket they have surrounded themselves with.

Having said all that I must point out the obvious: we live in a country OVERWHELMINGLY populated by folks that fit precisely into that mold and as such see nothing wrong at all with memorials and shrines that follow that mindset.

When i saw the photos of the mown down crosses i was....well.....nonplussed. I kind of expected something like that to happen and i am quite sure the guilty party would tell us all that there IS a god in heaven and he was most certainly going there.

Making the entirely logical argument that they should be replaced with something less sectarian is, in my mind, a bit like tilting at a windmill. Those crosses are certainly a universally recognizable symbol for most Americans and, in the spirit for which they were installed, don't represent anything more than what they represent - those killed in this moronic war.

ModemButterfly, Please, PLEASE don't think for a second that i am presumptuous enough to tell you how to think or how or what to post about. Quite the contrary, i admire you for sticking to your guns and standing up for what you hold dear. I just think in this case you perhaps were stepping over a line that is there, even though we don't like it and don't feel we should have to stay away from. When i see someone wearing one of those gaudy crosses around their necks i am ALWAYS compelled to ask them "What does the lower case "T" stand for?" but i don't. Why? Because it is a line I don't want to cross because it is ...well...pointless. Telling that person they are a fucking moron for wearing a symbol of torture and death around their necks or embracing a philosophical conviction that is asinine will do nothing to further my search for truth and it certainly wont convince that nimrod that he is being a nimrod.

I took the liberty of looking at the profiles of both Will Pitt and ModemButterfly. Both have been members since '01 but Mr. Pitt has nearly 34,000 posts while MB has less than 7000. This tells me a couple things. Mr. Pitt is the one spending much more time sitting in front of his computer than you do MB, my dear internet acquaintance and as such, has no business telling ANYONE how to spend their time.

You are in the right. I agree with your point of view. The memorial at "Arlington West" SHOULD look like Arlington National Cemetery or it is mis-named. But to make an issue of it at this point in time is perhaps and in my opinion, counterproductive.

Please accept this monologue in the spirit in which it is intended: that is to point out that telling the nimrods they are nimrods does nothing for the nimrods.

At at the end of the day, i'll bet the whole thing just made you feel exasperated. And for that, you have my understanding and i share your exasperation.

[beam me up scottie]

29. That attitude runs even

deeper than I thought.

Just don't make trouble or complain.
Uppity atheists.

[Zhade]

30. Man, there were some real arrogant assholes on those threads...

...and they were NOT the ones pointing out that not everyone should be represented with a cross.

But hey, that's society for you - many of our 'allies' in actuality really don't care for the god-free among them. You can feel the 'tolerance' just oozing out of them.

[salvorhardin]

31. No kidding

I think a luke warm tolerance is about the most we can expect in the current cultural climate.

On edit: I just pinned down what bothered me. A phrase similar to the following was said a number of times:
"Not just crosses -- they've got crescents and stars of david too!"

Reminds me of the punchline to the old joke:
"We're not prejudiced in this town, why, we've gots all kinds of people -- presbyterians, methodists, baptists..."

[Zhade]

35. Indeed. As if NO ONE in the military is religion-free.

People actually got bent out of shape by MB suggesting headstones in place of crosses. Fucking ridiculous!

[Emperor_Norton_II]

32. I'm not hugely surprised, but it is kind of sad nevertheless.

The first thread wasn't so bad, then The Great Author and his hovering cloud of sycophants, poseurs and wannabes joined the fray. Pretty typical primate pack/clique behavior, at that point. Those who disagree with the alpha get stompfucked by the followers.

And of course, we retreat here to lick wounds and prepare our horrible vengance, because we consitutue a pack of our own. ;) Though I don't think we have a well-defined alpha yet. If not, I nominate MB. :D

[Modem Butterfly]

33. Alpha Atheist?

Is there tithing involved?

I am all powerful and all impovrished! Send me 10% OFF THE TOP or you will be banished to atheist hell, i.e., The Meeting Room.

:evilgrin:

[Emperor_Norton_II]

34. Nah, none of that.

But we will tuck our tails between our legs and perform other submission rituals. Though I dunno if that's your kink. ;)

[Modem Butterfly]

36. Let's keep the adoration, but skip the submission

Also, I want to be known as Modem Butterfly IX, Atheist Pope.

[arwalden]

38. Nicely Worded...

<< The Great Author and his hovering cloud of sycophants, poseurs and wannabes joined the fray. >>

... perfect description.

[MindPilot]

39. The problem with that thread was all the vitriol took away

from the real point. The act of a wingnut xian neocon driving his truck over flags and crosses was about as close to a gift from god as any of us are going to get. And instead of letting it be the incredibly powerful metaphor for the rights' actions and using that, it became another flamefest.

As I said in that thread, MB, I agree with you except for a different reason. But I never expected that kind of attack from Pitt, although I had been on the tip of his spear once before when I said something unworshipful about John Kerry.