first encounter with the Borg?

[ginnyinWI]

I just saw the episode, "Q Who?" from the Star Trek Next Generation series, in which rascally Q flips the Enterprise into a quadrant 7,000 light years away, where they soon encounter a Borg ship and have never even heard of the Borg before. (Except for Gainan, whose people were wiped out by them).

I'm wondering: Is this the first time the Borg are mentioned in any of the series? I don't recall them in the original series at all, and I don't think in Star Trek Enterprise either. Back in their day, they barely even knew about Clingons. To them even Vulcans were recent enemies. Later in time, in the original series, Clingons were the big bad guys for Kirk and Spock.

I know that in one of the Next Generation movies there are plenty of Borg, and Picard becomes one of them for a while. This probably post dates this TV episode.

Funny, the Voyager encounters Borg too, but they are "only" 75 light years away from Earth. The Enterprise, in this episode, was much further away and still ran into the Borg? Could be a possible continuity glitch.

Anyway, it was interesting to see the crew so green about the Borg, to the extent of transporting over to the Borg ship to have a look around! And this ship was growing new Borg as babies in compartments--something not heard about later. Later on, the Borg increased numbers simply by assimilating.

"You will be assimilated. Resistance is futiile!"

[Kind of Blue]

1. ST:NG was the first I saw of the Borg, as well.

But I kind of remembered something about them in "Enterprise" - that I could never sit through an episode. Here's a good synopsis from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeneration_%28Enterprise%29

And then I remembered being sick of seeing the tiresome Borg yet again, and turned it off.

[ginnyinWI]

2. okay then that is the first Borg contact in Star Trek time.

Which brings a whole new question: if the ST: Ent crew encountered them, then Federation databases would have the info and it would not be an unknown being to the Next Gen crew. Just one of the many inconsistencies that happen when you do a new series that is actually set in a previous time! But in real time, the Next Gen show was probably the first to feature them.

I don't mind Borg. What drives me nuts is that Q character! Totally annoying and frustrating. I understand he was a device the writers used to bring new and unexpected things to the story, but it just comes out of nowhere and has no explanation or reason. Just doesn't fit with the narrative. They made little attempt to explain the guy.

[Kind of Blue]

6. I agree with you, GinnyinWI. I don't mind the Borg but

was really over their contacts with the Federation. By the time of the Enterprise episode, I just thought the writers had pushed the storyline a bit too far. I'd been really excited if those nasty aliens had gotten their own teevee show dealing with the intricacies of assimilating different worlds.
Oh, don't get me started on that brat Q. One of my un-favorite episodes of ST:NG was the American Civil War and the Continuum. You know, at first I thought he was a clever device because he reminded me of Tremaine in the original Star Trek. Remember him? Same kind of character whose parents came to get their spoiled son at the end of the show. I thought the Civil War episode using the Continuum pitted against the Tremaine entities would have been great!

[Orrex]

8. The US Civil War/Q Continuum mess was from Voyager

And I agree--it was awful. Some of the absolute worst episodes of the entire franchise.

[Kind of Blue]

12. Ha! Thanks for the correction. n/t

[ginnyinWI]

14. That Tremaine must be who I was thinking of--

I thought I remembered Q from TOS, but maybe that was the guy. I don't think I've seen the Civil War one, but there was one real stinker where Q makes Picard and crew dress up as Robin Hood and his merry men--absolutely terrible! I mean really.

[Kind of Blue]

16. Another total un-favorite.

Didn't want to bring that one up for fear of seeming like an NG hater, because I really enjoyed the series. One of my favorite episodes (which was a serious rip-off of Anne Rice's incredible Witching Hour that I was reading at the time) involved Dr. Crusher's family ghost - an entity that had attached itself to the women of her family on some planet that was kind of a remake of Scotland. Loved that one, so romantic and creepy.

[Orrex]

20. Oddly, that episode is generally derided as among the worst of the series

Can't say that I particularly like it either, but everyone's taste is different.

I also really dislike The Inner Light, which many identify as the best TNG episode for some daft reason.

[Kind of Blue]

21. That is odd, 'cause I've generally never seen it derided

on many lists as the wost of the whole series but I have seen Shades of Gray make worst lists many, many times.

[Orrex]

22. Shades of Gray is so bad that it causes animals to go lame and crops to wither

Even compared to other clip-shows, it's the worst of the worst.

However:

http://trekspace.ning.com/forum/topics/worst-star-trek-ever

http://superwalrusland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8506&sid=508e4a6b4ff1bb157d4c053ef835a567

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=1994592&mesg_id=1996837

Like I said, tastes vary!

[Kind of Blue]

24. Potato/Patada/Tomato/Tomada - can find just as many

that do not have one my favorite episodes on their lists. Even - so let's cut the whole thing off. Just personal opinion to express one of many episodes that I enjoyed and why (Ann Rice's book), so not intended to engage in a pissing contest.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/215436/worst_star_trek_ever_the_next_generation.html?cat=40

http://classic-sci-fi-tv.suite101.com/article.cfm/worst_of_star_trek_tng_season_6

http://www.empireonline.com/features/best-and-worst-star-trek-episodes/2.asp

[Orrex]

26. But I really have to pee!

Sorry to have come on too strong about it--reading over what I wrote, I realize that I was probably a trifle too aggressive in my criticism...

I'll say one last thing about Sub-Rosa that I don't really like but which isn't specific to that episode.

It's an example of standard gimmick #413: when in doubt, arbitrarily inject a Scot (or Irish) character (or plot).

Sure, we have the original "Scotty" and Mr. O'Brien, but these are characters who were fleshed out over a long period. Rule #413 applies to one-shot apearances that serve no real dramatic purpose except to allow the inclusion of fiddles and/or bagpipes in the soundtrack. The episode Up the Long Ladder from Season 2 is another example of this.

[Kind of Blue]

28. Ha! You win. I don't have the anatomy for the contest.

I think that I strongly connect Sub-Rosa with Rice's Witching Hour that I was reading at the time, hoping one day it'll be a real live movie.

I'll be paying more attention to that gimmick. The episode with Scotty was indeed annoying.

[Forkboy]

3. I thought you meant Republicans.

:)

[salvorhardin]

4. Let's see if I can get this straight.

With a little help from Wikipedia... Here's a capsule summary of Borg history.
ST: TNG

• Q Who?: Borg first appear when Q flings Enterprise D across the galaxy so Picard can learn humility (or something like that). It's suggested that the Borg may have been responsible for the destruction of Federation and Romulan colonies in the season 1 finale "The Neutral Zone".


• The Best of Both Worlds (two-part season 4 finale): Picard is abducted by the Borg and turned into Locutus of Borg to serve as the Borg's representative to humanity ("resistance is futile..."). The Borg use Picard's knowledge of Starfleet and decimate 40 starships, including Klingon ships, at Wolf 359. The Enterprise D crew captures Locutus, learns information from him that allows them to destroy the Borg cube, then removes the Borg implants from Picard.


• "I, Borg" (fifth season): The Enterprise D crew rescues a lone Borg that Geordi names "Hugh". There's a big moral dilemma because they had planned to use Hugh to infect the Borg collective with a computer virus, but after being separated from the collective, Hugh shows signs of independence. They decide to let him return to the collective virus-free with his individuality intact. They hope his individuality will infect the Borg instead.


• Descent (sixth season): A group of rogue Borg who have "assimilated" Hugh's individuality. Sadly, they have fallen prey to Data's evil older brother Lore. Lore manipulates them hoping to turn them on the Federation whilst also corrupting Data's ethical subroutines through an emotion chip he stole from Noonien Soong, Data and Lore's creator. Data's ethical subroutines are restored, Hugh leads the renegade Borg into attacking Lore's complex, Data fights with and deactivates Lore. Data takes the emotion chip because it's the only way to safely dismantle Lore. Hugh assumes leadership of the renegade Borg and Hugh's storyline is dropped, never to be seen again.


• ST: First Contact (ST VIII movie): After failing to assimilate Earth in battle, the Borg travel back in time to stop Zefram Cochrane's first warp speed flight which resulted in first contact with the Vulcans. The Enterprise E (the Enterprise D was destroyed by Riker in the previous film ST: Generations) follows the Borg back in time. Our heroes win the day, the time line is restored, and the Enterprise E gets to peak in on history as Cochrane meets the Vulcans. Everybody dances. However...

ST: Enterprise

Regeneration: What the Enterprise E crew fails to realize while back in time, along with the viewers because this was totally retconned, is that part of the Borg sphere crash lands in the Artic, whereupon it's discovered in Archer's time. Once it's unearthed, the Borg revive and steal an unarmed research ship, modifying it to match Starfleet technology. Before the crew of the NX-O1 destroys the Borg, they manage to send a transmission that will reach it's destination in 200 years. Thus by the time of "Q Who", the Borg are already on their way to Earth. The Borg never identify themselves as Borg, but various characters recall that Zefram Cochrane used to claim that cybernetic creatures from the future tried to prevent first contact with the Vulcans. Of course, since Cochrane was frequently drunk, no one believed him.

I'm not even going to touch the mess that is ST: Voyager. However, it's in Voyager we learn that the Borg have the ability to open up worm holes so they can travel very, very fast. Also, somewhere we learn that it was the Borg that wiped out Guinan's people. Guinan, and the rest of the survivors of her planet, were of course rescued from a glowy space-time ribbon by Kirk in ST: Generations. Kirk fell into the ribbon and was in turn rescued by Picard only to die at the hands of Alex DeLarge, I mean, Malcolm McDowell.

Later on, in a novel co-authored by Shatner, Kirk's body is stolen by the Romulans who bring him back to life with a Borg regeneration chamber... but that's neither here or canon.

Somewhere in the mess that is ST: Voyager, we learn of an expedition that was sent out to find and investigate the Borg sometime before the events of Q Who?, possibly on the basis of Cochrane's rumors (more retconning). Oh, and I'm not sure if you noticed, but there's incredibly hot Borg on the crew of Voyager (not to mention the holographic Doctor who travels back in time to impersonate an annoying high level bureaucrat, constantly interfering with McGyver's attempts to beat the Federation to the warp drive by a couple hundred years. Ironically, McGyver does a much better than job than Kirk and Picard combined at protecting the universe from people with the forehead-deformity gene.

[kentauros]

5. Nice little tie-in to Stargate

:D

And yes, "MacGyver" did a wonderful job at saving the universe and making friends with those of the little gray butts :P
"Holographic" Woolsey turned out to be a good commander of Atlantis for that matter ;)


Haven't people tried to tie the Q to some of the overly-powerful beings ST:TOS came across, too?

[Kind of Blue]

7. Yes, indeed, Kentauros!

Always thought the Q were taken from the Tremaine or Charley episodes of TOS.

[salvorhardin]

10. I was actually thinking the Q were the Organians

The powerful energy beings who enforced a treaty between the Federation and the Klingons in Errand of Mercy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errand_of_Mercy

But yeah, the mischievous nature of Q fits with Tremaine from Squire of Gothos too. For all we known, the Enterprise D's Q was Tremaine "grown up".

[Kind of Blue]

13. Interesting, there are more super powerful beings than

I realized in ST:OS. I was thinking of the Thasians in Charlie X who took the other brat, Charlie, back. In that one, remember how he wiped that girl's face off? Good God, that one creeped me out for years to come. Fantastic! :rofl:

[salvorhardin]

17. What's Harlan Ellison's line?

Yep, ST:TOS had more demigods in three seasons than Stargate SG-1 had in ten.

I think Ellison said in his review for Star Trek V in F&SF that Roddenberry's basic plot is that the Enterprise meets god, who turns out to be insane, a child, a computer or a combination of all three.

[Orrex]

9. The Doctor also travelled back in time to teach a gym class

That's where he met Fred Savage for the first time.

[salvorhardin]

11. Haha

I forgot about Coach Cutlip.

[ginnyinWI]

15. well the Borg are a much more interesting story than

that stupid Q. The Federation needs an invincible enemy, and the Borg offer so much more to work with.

One more inconsistency I noticed: while Picard was totally restored after having been a Borg, somehow Seven of Nine wasn't able to be. I guess that could be explained by seeing how long each of them were Borg. Seven of Nine was just a little girl when she was assimilated.

[salvorhardin]

18. Although I though ST: First Contact was a pretty fun film I was pissed at what they did to the Borg

In Star Trek: First Contact they took a wonderfully amoral, uncaring hive mind with a singular Darwinistic imperative to preserve itself by assimilating new species and cultures and turned it into something pathetically quasi-human.

[Orrex]

19. Seven was also assimilated to be a drone

Whereas Picard was assimilated specifically to speak on behalf of the Borg.

Perhaps the different objectives resulted in different assimilation techniques?

Perhaps that's some fancy-footwork post hoc reasoning?


Hmm...

[Dr. Strange]

23. There is also the claim that V(oya)ger from the first movie...

was created by a precursor of the Borg collective. Bonus points for anyone who can name the author who suggested that.

By the way, I haven't read the book where this idea was put forth. I'd just like to make that clear.

[ginnyinWI]

25. wild guess--

Stephen Hawking? I had heard he was a Trekkie. Just a guess out of the blue.

[Orrex]

27. I have this nauseating feeling that it might have been...

Shatner?

Highlight the space above for my answer.

[Dr. Strange]

29. Your nausea serves you well.

You are all in T. J. Hooker's house with correctness.

[CrispyQ]

30. I would like to have seen more episodes or even a movie about species 8472 & the Borg.

8472 were cool! Maybe I've forgotten, but my recollection is that the Voyager episodes revealed very little about 8472. Wiki has much more & they are fascinating!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_8472

Another species I would like to have seen more about is the Douwd, from "The Survivors" in STNG.

Kevin Uxbridge: No, no, no, no, no, you-you don't understand the scope of my crime. I didn't kill just one Husnock, or a hundred, or a thousand. I killed them all - all Husnock, everywhere. - Are 11,000 people worth... 15 billion? Is the love of a woman worth the destruction of an entire species?

[Orrex]

31. I think they made a big mistake when species 8472 simulated Starfleet Academy

It was just 100% cheese IMO, even with My Favorite Martian at the helm.

[CrispyQ]

32. I don't recall that episode,

but even the description sounds cheesy! ;)

I wish you could order individual episodes of the ST series from Netflix. I don't have the inclination to wade through the many episodes that I'm not interested in seeing again, just to catch a few I'd like to see. Oh well.

[Orrex]

33. I think it was a two-parter, in fact!

The first encounter with the species and the whole idea of "fluidic space" were really cool, but the writers made the mistake of making the species become approachable and pleasantly interactive, a la "can't we all just get along?" They did the same with the Borg IMO, turning them from a relentless conquering force to a bunch of humans who just need to be understood.

And even though the CGI for Species 8472 isn't that great by current standards, it was a daring step at the time. And the creature design was terrific--trilateral symmetry? I love it!

[CrispyQ]

34. Yeah, the fluidic space idea was just sooooooo cool!

I find that in so much sci fi -- really great idea, but poor execution. Maybe that's why I've never strived to write my own 'great' sci fi ideas - lack of confidence to develop them into a really good stories. ;) Oh, & lack of ambition, too. :blush: