Carnivale Spoiler - Jan 23 episode - Did Brother Justin really do that?

[dr.strangelove]

WOW. This show is getting better and better. My wife and I fell in love while watching the X-Files together every Sunday night. Now we are watching Carnivale with the same eye for mystery. Brother Justin is growing more evil every episode. Last year I thought he genuinely was trying to be good and fight the evil. He seems to know and has accepted his role. He is to become the Usher of death.
Anyone else enjoying the new season and want to chat about it.
The HBO web site has a great chat board.

[trotsky]

1. My wife and I are addicted to it.

We started watching it about the 3rd episode last year.

This year the action is moving a LOT faster. We hurry to make sure the kids are in bed before the show starts, and our eyes are glued to the set for that hour. Everything about the show is captivating - the acting, the story, the cinematography.

How about the rednecks Ben encountered? Whoa, I kept thinking he had some untapped powers he could use to defend himself but ultimately he's quite normal in that regard.

Every show answers a question or two, and then raises ten more. I absolutely love it.

[dr.strangelove]

2. I was waiting for some power to save him too

It is a great show.

[trotsky]

3. What confuses me right now...

Well, a lot of things do. But first off, it appears from what we know that Scudder has almost godlike powers. Yet Ben can "only" heal and resurrect. Why can he do so comparatively little? When Management compared himself & Scudder to Ben & Justin, it doesn't quite seem "equal." Mgmt & Scudder, very powerful. Ben & Justin, one or two incredible abilities, but otherwise not very powerful. I wonder how that will tie into the story.

[dr.strangelove]

5. I think both will come into more powers

Management seems to be Ben of the past. He failed to kill Scudder when a bear attacked him in WWI. If a bear could maime management, he was not all that powerful when he was young. Now he has grown into his powers. Also, if it took a bear to save Scudder, he too was not with grweat power. Later, after he returned to the US, he developed more powers.

[robbedvoter]

23. Management is the Russian- Justin's & Iris's father.

very likely, the evil force crossing the ocean from Europe mentioned in the first episode of the season in Samson's narration. It appears Scudder is the good guy of the past pair - but it's the ambivalence i love the most.

[robbedvoter]

21. You forget that ben once stopped a sandstorm (when egged by Lodz)

He was also abble to throw Lodz around just by his dreams. he is powerful alright, to bad he is lacking in the brains department.

[liberalnurse]

4. Ben is relucant to tap his power.....

He is shame-based due to his mother's teaching....I think the next episode will change that attitude. These hicks are his relatives! The Crone is probably his granny.

Ben has to be motivated and when he understands the mission, he will be relentless.

[dr.strangelove]

6. Old Granny Crone

It is going to be nasty. I think you are right, the Crone is Grandma Scudder and these are all his cousins. Grandma Crone ain't going to be as bad as the rest. She has no eyes, or is blind, but she seems to be an old Texan, proud of her heritage. He grandsons are backwoods psychos who kill wanderers and sell off their belongings.
Grandma is gonna tell Ben all about Daddy and his history.

[lazarus]

7. for some reason

This episode seemed almost like spacing or filler. As if the next episode needed to start from a certain place, but the last episode needed to stop just short of it, so this episode was needed to move things along.

Still a great show, just not a great episode, IMO.

[dr.strangelove]

8. I thought it was solid - Spoiler in this post

True, Ben did need to get to his family, but many plot points were set up in this episode.

The Jonesy-Sophie relationship was introduced with the little flirting. The problems that Stumpie is having with Bud and the start of Stumpie selling his wife and daughter for almost anything to get out of debt (worse is to come). The introduction of Lutz's "ghost" to Ruthie. The new tarot card. The first radio broadcast from Justin's "church."

Some old leads were taken further with Sofie refusing to read the cards and someone forcing her hand. Stroud getting to Babylon and continuing to search for Scudder and heading right toward Ben.

Not every episode will have a huge shocking surprise, some episodes need to develope the plot, set up new leads and give background to existing leads.

I can't wait to see how Ben reacts to his grandma and cousins. This next episode should be great.

[trotsky]

10. Not the first ghost Ruthie has seen, either.

What about that carnie worker she "saw", Skeeter? Seems to me like her coming back from the dead has given her a few powers as well. Her snakes are all spooked out.

[dr.strangelove]

11. Very True

I'm not so sure she is alive, maybe she is "on the edge of inbetween" that place that is neither alive nor dead. She is changed and Ben can feel it. I think he regrets savign her, because she was not truly saved. He also feels regret for taking a life, even Lutz'.

[trotsky]

13. Oh I don't think he regrets saving her.

What pisses him off is that he thinks he was a pawn in saving her - that Management allowed Lodz to kill Ruthie so that Ben would kill Lodz to save her. Unfortunately when he sees her, he is reminded of this, and so is rude to her.

[dr.strangelove]

14. I think it is more than that

I think there is regret for his actions. He still thinks that "good" must always "be good" (ie not kill). I think Ben will come to realize that some "good" may require "bad actions." I think Management is a force for "good" and that will be more clear. I hear get to see management soon. However, I also hear that the woman who does the voice will not be playing the character when we see him. I can't wait.

[trotsky]

15. Here's another thing that is gnawing at me.

We know that Justin and Iris are Russian. So is management.

Scudder is American, as is Ben.

So, management = Justin & Iris' father?

[lazarus]

16. That's been my understanding as soon as I realised

that management was the Russian soldier last season.

Interesting that the dark prophet gave birth to the light prophet, and vice-versa, if this is true.

[trotsky]

17. Yes, "if this is true" - key words.

Because I was thinking, too, is management really good? And is Scudder actually bad? We really know very little about either man. The way the series has gone, it would actually be MORE surprising if they didn't have some amazing twists as the story really gets deep.

[soleft]

18. I thought Management was the dark prophet

Why else would he say that Ben Tempts him?

[robbedvoter]

24. It refered to his desire to be healed. But, yeah, I also think he is evil.

[soleft]

25. Oh............duh....................

:)

[dr.strangelove]

19. That is something we thought about too

I don't know if the timeframe adds up. Scudder was born in the early 1890s. He joined a Canadian Battalion to go to WWI sometime in the 1914-1918 range, where Management first tried to kill him, but the bear stopped him. He met Lodz while there, I think Lodz was running the Carnie in Europe and let loose the bear that attacked management and prevented the killing of Scudder. Brother Justin and Iris appear to be in their 40s. Management looked like he was in his mid 20s when the bear attacked him as the russian soldier, so that would make him under ten when he had Justin and Iris. Maybe he was older than mid-20s while he was in Europe trying to kill Scudder. There may be a link there though.

[robbedvoter]

22. My problem with it - as storytelling goes - it dealt with too many

storylines, barely advancing any of them. A bit soapy - Dark Shadows comes to mind.

[soleft]

9. I posted on another thread Ben's counsin remind me of the Peacocks

From that classic X Files episode.

[dr.strangelove]

12. I thought the same thing.

This is my new X-Files. I loved that episode. It was on TV on MLK day during a marathon.

[robbedvoter]

20. Very realistic: evil is implacable, efficient. Good is wobbly, not quite

good (Ben kills) and stumbling in the dark. Almost like BFEE vs the world!
As for the question of the thread, here's television without pity:

http://www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=122&story=7363
a catatonic Rev. Balthus is moved into the new Casa de Creepy, where he gets to watch the maid clean Brother Justin's kitchen and polish his knob.

[dr.strangelove]

26. That was NASTY!

I don;t like the basic PDAs when couples make out in the mall. It is flat out wrong to get a BJ in front of a catotonic priest. Justin is so evil he scares me. I love this show.

[liberalnurse]

27. A pinch off the subject,

but here is a copy of Justin's "gathering of the masses" speech that runs chills down my spine everytime I hear it.

Oh, fun fact:

Clancy Brown, is from Urbana, Ohio. He is also the son of former Congressman Brown.......


Here is the speech Rev. Justin Crowe gives over the airways:

To hear the voice, preformed by Clancy Brown; aka Justin, is the most chilling narration I have ever heard!

<snip>

The clock is ticking, brothers and sisters. Counting down to Armageddon. The worm reveals itself in many guises across this once-great land, from the intellectual elite, cruely indoctrinating our children with the savage blasphemy of Darwin, to the craven Hollywood pagans corrupting them in the darkness of the local bijou. From the false prophets cowering behind our nation's pulpits, to the vile parasites in our banks and boardrooms, and the godless politicians, growing fat on the misery of their constituants. The signs of the end-times are all around us, etched in blood and fire by the left hand of G-d. You have but to open your eyes, brothers and sisters. The truth is, that the Devil is here! The anitchrist, the child of lies, the son of Darkness, walks among us cloaked in the flesh of a man. Does the Lord not weep at this degredation? Does he not tremble with righteous fury? And shall he not seek retribution?" (scene with Ben and Lodz, as well as the fire) "I open my eyes, and I see a black sky that tears apart and screams with the voice that is thunder! Rise up! Rise up brothers and sisters, and take your place at my side! For you shall be my sign, and your faith shall shine like a thousand suns, and the streets shall be sanctified with the steaming black blood of the heretics! And together, brothers and sisters, together we shall build a shining temple. The kingdom that will last for thousands and thousands of years."

[lazarus]

28. heard it many times

in the south. Just flip on the radio, tune it over to the AM late at night, and start moving up and down the dial. You'll find lots of that talk.

Believe me, that's what keeps a lot of churches going.

[liberalnurse]

29. I see you are a Deadwood

fan as well.......I love both of the programs! My husband likes Deadwood the best followed by Carnivale'......I'm the opposite.

[lazarus]

30. I love 'em both

Can't decide which I like better.

Deadwood has some of the best characterisations I've seen. Al Swearingen is one of the finest villains ever. The whole thing has a very accurate feel for the period.

Carnivale is a different animal altogether. The characterisations and plotting are unique, though. I love the way it takes its time, and doesn't treat the viewers as idiots.

Sample:

"You should do that more often."

Most shows would have followed this with, "What?" "Smile."

Carnivale knows the viewers are smart enough to figure this out. Same with Deadwood. Intelligent television works.

[robbedvoter]

31. Beware of Brother Justin when drinking milk! His initials are no coinci

dence.