Carnivale : OUTSKIRTS, DAMASCUS, NE

[drdon326]

Ben and Samson have a heated argument; Iris and Justin back a local politician; Rita Sue tries to play hardball with Stumpy's debt collector; Libby shocks her parents with an announcement; Ruthie seeks refuge in the safety of her trailer; Smith interprets a bad sign for Justin; Stroud nurses a wound; Jones is blamed for an accident; and Sofie finds a new job.

http://www.hbo.com/apps/schedule/ScheduleServlet?ACTION_DETAIL=DETAIL&FOCUS_ID=620012

[lazarus]

1. Who wants to bet

That Sofie's new job is as Justin's next maid?

[OKNancy]

2. I wouldn't bet against you

That's what I think too.

[liberalnurse]

3. I think she will be Norman's

nurse maid attendant. She needs a job and has experience with invalids vis her mother. I think her and Iris will bond......

[drdon326]

4. I agree......

will be interesting to see what "visions" she expernces with Norman.

[lazarus]

5. OTOH

Nebraska's a long way from California. Haele pointed that out tonight.

[liberalnurse]

6. Interview with DK.......

The new web site; carnycon has opened up. I found a good interview with DK.

http://www.mooncross.net/carnivale/bally/dan.html

snip>

Dan: And it’s a tough story, and it can be confusing. But I think sometimes people make it more confusing for themselves than it needs to be. Sometimes things are stated in a very clear way. I mean like, there’s been a big question, “Who’s the Tattooed Man?” And “Who’s the Usher?” And in the very first episode of the first season, who do we see in that cornfield that we recognize, with a tattoo on him?

Beth: The Tattooed Man?

Dan: Yeah, but we also see one of our characters, and people have even done screencaps and discussed this.

Beth: Well, I saw Justin.

Dan: Right, they’ve seen Justin!

Beth: Yeah, I saw Justin, but then I’d recognize Clancy’s profile from a hundred paces! (laughing)

Dan: Yeah! (chuckling) We didn’t do that just to mess with people! We did that, although we do it quickly and with flashes, to sort of start a clue going. And then later, we see that same creature raping Apollonia.

Beth: Right.

Dan: And in that scene, who do we see?

Beth: We see him turn into Brother Justin.

Dan: Yeah, we see that! It’s been posted. People have talked about it. But again, it’s done in flashes, and it’s done almost to an abstraction. But it’s there and people have commented on it. But now they’re wondering, how can one person be another thing? And again, we find out in season two that this Tattooed Man is really a spiritual representation. In different dreams and visions, he’s a spiritual representation of a creature whose appearance has been foretold since antiquity – who’s the harbinger of the Apocalypse. I mean, two people say that in the first episode of the second season – Management and Talbot-Smith. As a matter of fact, Talbot-Smith is sitting there, and he’s going “You will know the Usher by his words, ‘Thou shalt be strong,’” just as Brother Justin on the radio says, “Thou shalt be strong.”

Beth: So you know, there he is!

Dan: By then, it’s like, “Oh, okay.” But by episode two, we practically hang a lantern on it when we do this huge big dramatic reveal of Brother Justin with the tattoos. (chuckles) There he is.

Beth: There he is, he’s the Usher now.

Dan: And he’s becoming this thing. And then Management goes on to say, “Oh, my God! HE IS FLESH! He’s here. The Usher is here.” This isn’t just the normal Avatar. This is the Usher!

Beth: This is worse than an Avatar.

Dan: This is like… ALL Avatars are powerful. All Avatars have meaning. But this one is kind of like an uber-Avatar for the Dark Side. And that’s all very clearly… kind of laid out pretty big. I think the fun of the show is thinking maybe some of the things aren’t answered, and we get to guess. And there’s a lot of white space for us to play in. And yeah, of course, that’s part of the design. But when we practically hang a bell on it and say, “Okay guys, we’re answering this one for you, because you’ve been asking since last season.” Wondering, and wondering, and wondering… And when we wrote it, we wrote it as, “Oh, my God! They’re gonna be… THIS one really, really lays it out for them. This is where we answer that question.” But then afterwards you’re reading, “Wait a minute, then who’s the Usher?” You go, “Wait a minute… Maybe we’re…” And maybe it’s a fault of the writing. I don’t know. But sometimes I think, what it boils down to, it’s hard to see things when your nose is pressed up against it.

Beth: Well, I think that the question people have with the Appy rape is, how could Brother Justin have been there to do it? And there are questions about whether it’s symbolic for something that’s coming in the future for Sofie? And is Appy trying to show Sofie, “This is going to be YOUR fate, baby,” do you know what I mean? I think that’s the part, right there, that we’re getting hung up on.

Dan: And it could very easily be both. I think it could very easily be both. It could be a vision of things that are not only the past, but again, a harbinger of things that could happen in the future.

Beth: Right.

Dan: So yeah, I look at it as… How can Brother Justin be there? We’ll, we’re showing him there. So, he’s there.

Beth: So, you’ve seen it.

Dan: Look, How’d he…? He took a street car. (chuckling)

Beth: (laughing)

Dan: Those questions are answered more explicitly later in the season. (chuckling) But like I said in our last interview – sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[OKNancy]

7. Interesting, because that is how I try to follow

the show. I just let the scenes and the action flow over me. I don't question and think, "What does that mean?" or "Why are they doing that?" I just sit and watch and appreciate each moment for what it is. I find it much more enjoyable this way. I don't over-analyze.

I love this show!

[liberalnurse]

8. DK's clarification was most helpful.

It is all the unique and clever symbolism that made most of us die-hard fans read too much into it. The sybmolism and parallels are indeed inportant and now make sense. I love all the layers.

Anyone going to the chat group when the Carnivale' stars go on line at carneycon?

[liberalnurse]

9. I'm going to try and post a screen shot

of Justin as the Usher. It is from the first Episode; Dream Sequence.

[liberalnurse]

10. I found this little clip too.....

You will have to stop it to see Justin......As the "Usher". You can run your cursor over the slidebar and go slowly to see each shot.



http://carnivale.fxuk.tv/assets/video/carnivale_good-and-evil-35_1500.mpg

[liberalnurse]

11. Hey folks.......

I may be late for the post episode discussion......


I've got plans......What does this tell ya??????

[drdon326]

12. WOW !! This is a weird show.

.

[Kire]

13. If Deadwood starts next week...

...is this the season finale?

:shrug:

[lazarus]

16. Nope

they're moving Carnivale back an hour.

[Kire]

21. Deadwood, then Carnivale

I don't know how my little heart will take it.

[drdon326]

14. OOOOOHHHHHH SHHHHHHHIIIIITTTTTT !!!!

SOPHIES IN THE HOUSE !!!!

[NashVegas]

15. Moving Into NT Now?

Up until tonight's show, just about everything was couched in Old Testament terms.

Tonight we got a shroud and an ascension, oh my.

Things I liked:

Samson walking into the trailer he told Ben didn't exist.

Ben playing god in a big way (mother/child), but what an odd look he had on his face.

If we hear hornets, we head west.

Ruthie getting wise to Lilah.

Norman trying to speak (probably rain curses) on Justin when he was hitting the floor.

BEST of all: Libby shows her backbone!


What I didn't like:

Will Sophie *please* put a clean dress on?

The new style for next week's preview.

[lazarus]

17. I win!

hah hah!

---

Topic subject Who wants to bet
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=267x1545#1554
1554, Who wants to bet
Posted by lazarus on Thu Feb-24-05 11:26 AM

That Sofie's new job is as Justin's next maid?

---

[liberalnurse]

18. YOU WIN!!!!!!!

I was SHOCKED.....I threw my hand over my mouth and screamed! Yes I did..........



This was a fantastic show!

[trotsky]

19. Ben sure has grown into his new powers.

He's matured instantly. He understands his role. He understands the importance. Everything Management was afraid he wasn't ready for, he now is.

Very powerful scene where he takes the mother's "life force" (with her permission, of course) to revive her son.

What was with the fetus in the bottle in the luggage trailer, anyway?

[lazarus]

20. I'm still trying to figure that one out

Amazing that Ben has changed so much, but Management did give him the power.

I like the fact that Samsons's going to continue to act as if Management is in charge. In a way, he is, I guess.

[liberalnurse]

22. I'm loving Samson more and more

each Episode. He really is a kindred soul. He and Ben will make a fantastic team. He is the opposite of Stroud....Ben's first Apostle.

[lazarus]

23. his first

But Stroud isn't Justin's first, his sister is.

Stroud is his "angel". Michael.

Remember who Ben healed? Gabriel.

I just have this feeling those two are going to lock horns.

[liberalnurse]

24. Oh yea, thats right........

Gabe is devoted to Ben....I think Ben will unknowly recruite his army with Samsons help.

I had a funny thought; What if his "kin" will be needed? That is how DK thinks.....:silly:

[liberalnurse]

26. DK shared on the Yahoo board today

that he has some items in the show that is left for the imagination of the viewer.

From: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@y...>
Date: Wed Mar 2, 2005 2:58 pm
Subject: Re: the fetus revisited (my take)

--- In [e-mail], "buccibanks" <buccibanks@y...> wrote:
>
>
> So who does the fetus represent? I never really thought about it
> before..just thougt it was one of those weird things

In a previous post, I indicated that a lot of the symbology was open
to interpretation. Therefore, I don't like to reveal my own personal
take, because it implies that my intent as an author supercedes the
viewer's interpretation. The truth is, much of Carnivale is open to
interpretation. It was designed that way.

And, frankly, the writer's intent in executing a scene is wholly
seperate from the viewer's interpretation (unless the viewer IS the
writer, of course).

The pickled-punk is a perfect example. As I stated in the chat, it
was meant to represent Management. But I have read half-a-dozen
equally valid interpretations on this and the HBO boards, and a couple
that are easily more compelling than my own.

I particularily like the one in which the pickled-punk mirrors Ben
Hawkins' path to enlightenment--its eyes are opened upon the discovery
of the photograph of his mother among Scudder's luggage, through to
its disappearance mirroring Ben's ascension into Prophethood. Much
more elegant than my own intent, and equally valid.

Creating is a mystery, even to the creator, because much of it occurs
on a subconscious level. When asked "why did you do it this way," a
facile writer will come up with any number of credible reasons for a
creative decision, but most often, the true answer is "it just felt
right."

For example,The title of the first episode, in which Ben is picked up,
is "Milfay." It's been pointed out on the boards that "Milfay" is an
anagram for "family," appropriate because this episode is about Ben
Hawkins being taken in by a surrogate "family" of carnies. But the
fact is, I just picked the name of the town at random from a
period-correct map of the region.

Why? It just "felt right."

Was it a coincidence? Not likely. I mean, what are the odds, really?
Clearly, it was a creative decision made on a subconscious level.

And that's why, though I have no problem answering nuts-and-bolts
questions about story logistics (i.e. Who's the CoD, CoL, Usher), I
prefer not to answer the "what does this represent" type questions.
Because the only appropriate response, really, is "What do *you* think
it represents?"

Of course, I've been taken to task for that, with some folks saying
"he really doesn't have any idea what all this stuff means." And as
far as I'm concerned, they're just broadcasting their utter ignorance
of the creative process.

Because any writer, artist, musician with an ounce of intellectual
honesty, who's created anything worthwhile from scratch, will admit
the same thing.

It's been said, after all, that upon the initial publication of
"Huckleberry Finn," Mark Twain had no idea what all the fuss was
about. So far as he was concerned, it was just a kids book, a
rip-roaring sequel to "Tom Sawyer." It wasn't until many, many years
later that he realized the source of the controversy: "Huckleberry
Finn" was the first novel in American popular fiction in which a black
man was depicted as a fully realized, rounded human character.

Oh, and the "annointed blade" question. I was asked if it was the
only means by which an Avatar could be killed. In reading the
chat-transcript, I realize I didn't understand the question. The
answer is no. An Avatar (Prophet OR Prince), though more resilient
than a human being, is mortal and can be killed--by bullet, bear or
blade. By speeding SUV, if it comes down to it.

But the ONLY way to kill the usher (as indicated by Talbot-Smith) is
with an "annointed blade."

Keep watching. Episode 9 rocks.

D.

[soleft]

25. I cried during the resurrection scene (the boy)

Something about the music, and the look on Ben's face, and the look on Sampson's face when he realized what Ben was doing.

[liberalnurse]

27. I found this to be an very

interesting message post to read. I did not know that the William Talbot Smith character was based upon a real individual as a pioneer of the Satanic in the U.S. Maybe WT Smith is going to show some teeth in the show? I'm going to research him later. Here is the message post link.

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivaleHBO/message/13771

[soleft]

28. I can't access the link, would you be able to copy and paste the message

Thanks

:*

[liberalnurse]

29. Here is the link to the

fun fact....


Given that W. T. Smith brought Aleister Crowley's brand of Satanism, in
the form of the Church of Thelema and later the OTO, to the USA, and that
he established the OTO in the Los Angeles area in 1934, I don't think it
requires a logic leap to see them as one and the same Smith.

Crowley himself believed Smith to have been more than human; being the
incarnation of some God. Smith spent years in Canada prior to coming to
the USA, and that creates some plot possibilities in Carnivale, since
Scudder was serving in Lemberg as a member of Canadian forces.

The fact that Smith is apparently the only member of the "regular"
Carnivale cast to be based on a real life person is one of the reasons I
think it wise not to believe that Carnivale's Smith is as timid and meek
as he may seem. Remember Kaiser Sosa.


Regards,

Smitty


direwolf94direwolf94@y... wrote:

>I put up a post that showed up at 4 AM asking if anyone knows whether
>the Wilfred Talbot Smith in Carnivale is the same as the historical
>figure Wilfred Talbot Smith. Nobody responded so I though I'd try
>again in primetime.
>
>The real WTS appears to have been connected to a cult in Southern
>California. I found a link to a book recounting this cult and Smith's
>role as the leader. Smith followed someone known as Aleister Crowley,
>not too far from Crowley to Crowe. Hmmm. I also found the exact same
>info on a couple of other sites that appeared to review Occult based
>books. Here is the link:
>
>http://www.teitanpress.com/books/tug.html
>

[liberalnurse]

30. I just wanted to see

if this would copy to the Board....


http://www.darnellworks.com/a52/media/hboc-420.mov


Okay; it does.......just give it a good minute to load......

Enjoy.