Survivor 11/18 *SPOILERS*

[lazarus]

Gods, could this season get any more dull? This is turning into the ultimate pagonging. Not a single one of these nitwits would have survived to the merge in any previous season, including Season 1 when nobody except Hatch knew what the hell was going on.

Idiots, the lot of them.

You never, ever, ever, ever try to pull a power grab at 8. You do it at 9, or 7. But nobody's going to risk a tie, and that means you need an extra person when the number's even.

Last week was the time to do it. Scout and Twila could have joined the men, booted off Leann, then Ami this week, then jumped back to the women for a couple, then flipped back and forth and picked the person they wanted in F3 with them.

But no, they're idiots. How can people go on this show without having studied rudimentary game theory? That's like going on Jeopardy without looking at any trivia or past shows. Just moranic.

Tossing away a perfectly good chance to make F3, and guarantee that one of them at the least is F2. Gods this pisses me off.

Thankfully, I have my tapes of Season 5, so I can watch Brian, a real master at the game, working his magic.

[lpbk2713]

1. I'm inclined to agree.

Although I continue to watch regularly I don't seem to enjoy Survivor as much as I used to. Seems like the turning point for me was the All-Star series when they so quickly kicked off my favorites Tina and Rudy. But I guess that is really the main strategy after all, kick off the strongest contenders. This current bunch has no real standouts although I would have like to see Rory go further than he did. I got the feeling he was tired of the whole thing and he really wanted to leave. Is there another Survivor in the works or is CBS finally getting the message that this just isn't working any more?

[dr.strangelove]

3. Thats pretty funny about CBS getting the message

Oh wait, you were being serious. Survivor is averaging a 12.7 and a 20 share for this season, Top 5 shows. CBS will make over $100 million off this season of the series. What message do you want them to get?

Regular fans are not leaving, in fact ratings are up almost 10% from last season. Although I agree this season is not one of the best (in fact I would rate it second worse, above Africa), CBS is begging Brunet to renew the series for five more runs.

As for this series, I think the game is being played by Amy brilliantly. She has secured herself as leader, while not alienating people. If she was in the final two, I would vote for her b/c she played well. She is right about getting rid of the men. She tells the girls its because she wants to get rid of the males who might beat a woman, but its really to get rid of the males who might beat her. She can swim faster and run faster then all the women. Once she picks off Chris, she will win immunities often, and will walk into the final two. (Now watch her get picked off next week and show how dumb I am).

[lazarus]

9. Ami's alienating EVERYONE

So far, she's pissed off the three men, which means she now needs every single female vote, while getting them all voted off.

[dr.strangelove]

30. Pissed off does not mean you lose their vote

Nearly every winner (except the Colby/Tina debacle) was hated by jury members who voted for them anyway. Richard, Ethan, Jenna and Sandra all got votes from people who "hated" them. The show is heavily edited. Though Amy may be pissing people off, the show's history suggests that she will get votes from people who respect her anyway. I would include Chad and Sarge in that group. Both have backgrounds that respect hard work and strategy. If Amy is against anyone but Twila in the end, I would think she would get Chad and Sarge's vote. We'll see what happens.

[lazarus]

31. that's possible

But the other winners were, in large part, "hated" because they were instrumental in getting people voted out.

Ami's offending people with her personality, too.

[dr.strangelove]

32. I don't agree

I think she is seen as bitchy because she is a woman. I will reserve judgment until I see how she handles voting off a woman.

[lazarus]

34. we already saw that

With Lisa. Remember? When she said, "I'm voting for Lisa" with Lisa standing right there in front of her?

I don't think there's anything sexist about disliking Ami at all.

[lazarus]

35. Here's some more about this

From on interview with Sarge at Reality News Online:

RNO: What made Ami so charismatic that she was able to pull in Julie and Twila, and hold the women together for so long – or is there a different reason for their votes after the merge as you see it?

Sarge: I see everyone scared of Ami and the power she had over most of the women. She did not really say or do anything special, she just had a majority of the girls with her and they wanted to stay just a little more longer so any time there was doubt in their minds they would run back to her and feel secure.

RNO: Was Ami's apparent hostility towards the men as bad in person as it seemed on the show?

Sarge: Yes it was real ugly and it felt cold at the camp at all times. She stated it's just simple, you are a man and I am a woman and I have no purpose for a man.

And from an article on the same site describing some of the Survivor Insider stuff from last week:

"Scout says she doesn't mind having a women's alliance, but not when it's male-bashing like Ami does. She likes the guys, even though she doesn't want them to win."

[kaitykaity]

2. I bow to your superior wisdom.

I was defending the show, but after last night and
the talk talk talk with the guys and then to see Chad
get the boot, I was disappointed.

Thanks for starting the thread.

[Qanisqineq]

4. this isn't Survivor's best season

but I still love it anyway! :loveya: I hope that CBS wouldn't decide to cancel it when it is still getting such good ratings! From what I've seen, CSI, Without A Trace, and Survivor are all in at least the top 5 every week.

I think part of the problem is there isn't anyone I love or anyone I love to hate. I didn't like Sarge but he was tolerable. I haven't figured out who I want to win yet. I like Ami but she can be too controlling for me sometimes. I'd kind of like to see Twila win simply because she seems like an unlikely winner (IMO).

Edit: spelled there as "here"

[kaitykaity]

5. Anybody smart will take Eliza to the final two just because

people hate her so much. I think Eliza is the "Clay" of
this season (harkening back to Season 5).

[Qanisqineq]

6. LOL

I had completely forgotten about Clay. For some reason, I don't remember much about Season 5 period. I watched it all... :shrug:

[kaitykaity]

7. I hated that season so much I couldn't STAND IT.

Forgot Clay, huh? Not me.

And he and Brian couldn't be on the All Star show because
CBS found out later Brian had starred in soft-porn movies.

[lazarus]

10. wrong

They knew about that before the season started.

Brian basically refused to go on All Stars, knowing that the previous winners would all be booted quickly. He made up some thing about requiring guaranteed money, etc., knowing they'd turn him down.

He was so mistreated by the media and fans after that season, he really doesn't care anymore. It's all a big joke to him, anyway. He's got his money, which is all he was there for.

[kaitykaity]

11. You sound like you know the guy or something.

Spill.

Poor baby, he got mistweated?? Awwwww. Boo hoo hoo.

Oh please. If he weren't such an egotistical jerk, with
all his furs and jewelry and crap, he wouldn't be such an
inviting target.

You say he played a great game. I say he couldn't have done
it without some ignoramuses as accomplices.

[lazarus]

12. No

I'm just a big fan, who's been a big fan from the beginning.

He was mistreated, badly. Remember, all the talk at the time of his winning was about the fact that he'd done "porn" and was having marital problems.

Furs? Jewelry? I recall he spent the entire 39 days in shorts. And I'm rewatching that season right now. As for ego, how many humble winners have we had? He was cocky, brash, and confident, and followed through by actually winning.

He did play a great game. Richard Hatch, widely acclaimed the best Survivor ever, said he played a great game.

Part of playing a great game is to make other people look like ignoramuses, after all. Recall also he won many of the challenges as well.

He was the first person to win the F3 competition and win the jury vote. He was the second man to win the F3 competition, and the only one to win it when it's an endurance challenge (Colby's win in Australia was a Fallen Comrades challenge).

Who played better than him, particularly that season? Remember, all the winners have said that luck is a major component of winning.

[kaitykaity]

13. F3? Does that mean Final 3?

A lot of what happened to him was his own doing. You don't have
to be a jerk to be a Survivor winner -- Tina, Sonya, V for
example.

If he were smart and wanted money outside of Survivor, he
would have done a better job with public relations so people
like me with a passing knowledge of him wouldn't be so turned
off by him.

Rob played better than him (even though he didn't win) because
Rob didn't have that ring of protection of four ignoramuses
tucked solidly away. Rob was dealing with shifting alliances
and numbers the whole time.

[lazarus]

14. Sorry, yes

He's not really concerned by people's opinions, as best as I can tell.

Tina was a cast-iron bitch who somehow got a good reputation. Remember, she's the one who went into Kel's backpack.

Sondra was cool.

Vecepia was just horrid, the worst winner (as a person) we've had so far. I do think she earned her win, but was just a horrible person.

As far as Rob vs Brian: Which is better, dealing with shifting alliances, or being so dominant that you don't have to deal with shifting alliances?

I would have loved to see Brian deal with a switch as Rob had to. But each player has to play the game they're dealt.

Rob miscalculated; he was anticipating riding Matthew to the finals, with Matthew in the Colby role, and himself in the Tina role. Matt got a bit too clever. He also outthought himself by not booting Jenna when he had the chance, but that's more of a hindsight issue.

And Rob was a horrible player in All Stars. His reputation really took a hit there.

Brian did what Rich did, set up a strong alliance, but went beyond Rich. He set up a "spoked wheel", with F2 or F3 alliances with each of them (Jan was just happy to be along for the ride). He managed to reinforce his relationship with each of them, overriding any suspicion they may have had. It was a brilliant performance.

I used to be a great salesman, and managed even better salesmen. And the sales performance Brian gave was an absolute masterpiece.

[kaitykaity]

15. You really are a student of that noncooperative game theory

stuff, aren't you?

Rob had the same problem in the All Star season that the
winners did. He had a huge target on his back because they
knew he was the "best player ever not to win," in Probst's
words. If they let him sit back in the weeds, he'd pull his
magic and they'd be screwed.

Yeah, re: Jenna my mom watched that season with me, and she's
convinced to this day that the games was rigged for the little
witch to win -- that those immunity challenges were set up
and they (CBS) helped her somehow.

I don't have the same respect for "the salesman" as you do I guess.
I find the whole process distasteful and couldn't do it to
save my life. I'm an introvert by nature and don't do people
well at all.

Survivor has done a better job of not casting such weak
personalities as Clay, Jan, Helen, et cetera for a salesman such
as Brian to have such an easy time of being dominant, of using
his natural 'gifts' as it were.

Besides, such a four-or-fivesome is a complete bore. That's why
the lack of a shift in the current season is starting to tick me
off.

[lazarus]

16. Thank you

Yes, I'm a student. That's where I find my enjoyment. I love brilliant play, hate stupid play. That's why I hated All Stars and this season.

I loved Pearl Islands. Johnnie Fairplay was a complete ass, but boy did he cause some stuff to happen. And Sandra found a great new way to win that nobody had really done before.

Salesmen can be very sleazy, or very good and ethical. I finally got to where I couldn't do it anymore, but for a variety of reasons. Mostly the areas I was being encouraged to push my salespeople were a bit ethically questionable.

Watching Season 5 right now, and I can't believe you could say Clay and Helen were weak personalities.

I do agree that it could be boring. This season has been horrible for a few reasons:

First, the 'battle of the sexes' thing. This adds a natural division (gender) to the artificial division of the tribes.

Then Burnett (the producer) had that opening ceremony which focused on the men, causing the women to feel even more separated and less likely to switch sides.

Finally, the switch just didn't happen at the right time or in the right way to allow alliance shifting. Letting Scout pick the sides meant she could keep the women's alliance relatively intact.

Oh, and also having balance challenges in the first two (men's tribes are horrible at that historically) put the men at a numbers disadvantage.

The only hope the men had was to throw all three challenges immediately following the switch, voting off the two women and John K. Then hope that Burnett had the merge at the normal time. At that point, the men and women would have been even, but the men would have had their original alliance intact.

But that sort of thinking is easy to figure out when one is safe in the living room, well fed and thinking clearly. Very few players have made virtually no errors in a game of Survivor. I'd say Brian is about it. Rich had a couple, but was able to overcome them.

[kaitykaity]

17. The big mistake was made when

the men trusted Twila and Julie and got rid of
John K. That was boneheaded. I guess Julie's bare
backside did the trick.

Same with Brian. Helen and Jan had a fifth, and they could
have split the Clay/Brian alliance. They had the opportunity and
did not use it. I think Probst even commented on it there
at the end. Had they done that, all of Brian's mastery
would have been for naught.

I still think there's hope, because in the previews
Chris spills all about the Scout/Twila meeting and
stirs the pot a bit. Things could really fracture,
and since there's a odd number now there won't be
a tie.

[lazarus]

18. That's what made Brian so brilliant

He had Helen and Ted both convinced they were in a secret Final Two alliance with him. And Clay.

Hopefully Chris can pull something off. The one thing I keep in mind is Season 4. At one point, there were 6 from one tribe, 2 from the other. And one of those two, Vecepia, ended up winning by using divisions in the tribe.

And the women's tribe is only unified against the men. There's a pecking order already there, if Chris can just figure it out. I don't think he will be able to, but there's always hope.

[kaitykaity]

19. Their mistake doesn't make Brian brilliant.

It makes them stupid and Brian lucky.

You've had this conversation before, haven't you?
lol.

I think that pecking order is going to be the
downfall of one of the top people in it.
I think if Chris can harness Eliza and some
of the others -- Scout, Twila -- then he's got
enough to take out Ami, Leann, or Julie.

There are resentments building that could be tapped
if someone has the stones and brains to do it.
(A la Rob M., my hero.)

[lazarus]

20. I have this conversation a LOT

Nobody on this season has the brains to figure out things, or it would have happened two weeks ago. Scout hates Eliza, so that's the problem.

Found out from Survivor Insider that Scout and Twila were willing to jump over to the men at the merge, if they'd vote for Eliza. But Rory was deadset on Ami, and Scout is too stupid to realise that Ami is the real threat, so the whole thing fell apart.

Yeah, Brian got lucky. Every winner is lucky. But Brian is the one who did the scheming, and he also won a lot of challenges. He manipulated the whole thing to set up the Final 3 he wanted, and the person he wanted to go up against.

[kaitykaity]

21. At the merge? Holy Crap!

I did not know that. Rory slit his own throat then because
he hated Ami. Gawd, what a dumbass.

Scout is not dumb. Tina's a stone-cold bitch, Scout's
dumb, but Brian is great? Come on.

I never said I didn't think Brian deserved to win. He
did deserve to win. I am saying that I personally did not
like him -- but I liked Clay even less.

As it was, he took the most hated player in the game with him
and only won it skin of the teeth 4-3. Not exactly an overwhelming
endorsement of his play.

You said yourself he doesn't care what people think and
he's unwilling to do anything about this "slimy" reputation
he's got. If he had been, then I might have been willing
to see him from a new perspective.

[lazarus]

22. Heh

Scout is strategically dumb. I have no doubt she's a brilliant person in her own life, but she and Twila are dumb in game terms. They've made very serious errors in judgement and timing.

I never said Brian is a great guy. I said he's a great winner. He was also playing a persona better than anyone has ever done it on Survivor before.

You mention the 4-3 vote. Notice who the votes were from. Every single one of Brian's tribe mates, the people who had been with him from day one, voted for him. The three from the other tribe, who were being plowed under by Brian in rapid fashion, voted for Clay, because his strategy was to suck up to the other tribe as much as possible, and hope maybe he could get one vote from his own. Didn't work, but it was a good try.

[kaitykaity]

23. If Brian really were a great winner,

he would have won it more convincingly in terms of the
final jury vote.

If I applied your criteria to Tina, she's a great winner
as well because she conned Colby into taking her instead of
Keith, against whom Colby would have won hands down.

I must say I do remember more about this season we're talking
about than any of the others, except Rob M. and Jenna
of course.

I remember V screwing over Kathy, which is probably why
Kathy got to be on the All Star squad. Or am I remembering
that Neleh chick, who reminds me a lot of Holly, kind of a
cut out.

Do you think they cast types, or do they cast individuals?
They either need to cast all athletes or mostly athletes,
because all those he-man guys got picked off real quick.

[lazarus]

24. Not necessarily

Rich barely won, same with Tina. Vecepia won a more convincing vote, but only because she was up against someone even more repellent. At that point, nobody on the jury wanted to vote for either of them.

Sandra won 6-1, but I don't think she was a more convincing winner than Brian. I don't think Ethan outplayed anybody, he was selected to go by someone else.

Jenna won by a convincing margin, again because of circumstances. The vote isn't a good way to measure how well someone played the game.

They do cast characters, but also individuals. For instance, what character type does Rupert fit into? But they do their best to ensure a balance of gender (obviously) and age. The seasons have all been within a couple of years average age, all 9 of them.

[kaitykaity]

25. Rupert's in a class all by himself.

I think they had that second vote on the All Stars just so they
could give him $1 million. He was almost guaranteed to win just
because he was the most popular player ever to play the game.

The exceptions to your age rule are Rudy, Jan, Scout that I can
think of immediately.

Jenna got Christi to vote for her. That's saying a lot, considering
how much Christi hated her. "I'll never vote for one of those
two harpies" or something like that. And I hate it that I'm
putting up Jenna to disagree that it was circumstances. She, like
Brian, won the challenges she needed to to stay alive in the
Game. She snapped up the opportunity Rob presented to get rid
of Christi.

That's the bigger picture I've been trying to get you to see. You
give Brian credit for things, but dismiss others for doing the same
things. You say Brian was the mover in his game, but nobody else
did it the same way so they weren't as good.

It doesn't work like that.

1 - Rich
2 - Tina
3 - Ethan
4 - V
5 - Brian
6 - Jenna
7 - Sandra
8 - Amber
9 - ??? Ami ???

Do women win more because we're more conniving do you
think?

[lazarus]

27. Heh

If you could see the spreadsheet of stats I have, you'd know better. :evilgrin:

The total average age of all Survivors is 34. Virtually every season, the average age has been 34 or 35. No season has been more than 2 years off that average.

Here's the whole list, by age:

Rudy 76
Rudy 72
BB 64
Sonja 63
Jake 61
Scout 59
Kim J 57
Paschal 57
Roger 56
Jan 53
Rodger 53
Lillian 51
Maralyn 51
Butch 50
Kathy 50
Patricia 49
Tom 48
Helen 47
Janet 47
Kathy 47
Carl 46
Clay 46
Tom 46
Debb 45
Peter 45
Linda 44
Lisa 44
Frank 43
Diane 42
Richard 42
Susan 42
Teresa 42
Tina 42
Trish 42
Jeanne 41
Twila 41
Andrew 40
John 40
Keith 40
Lea 40
Lex 40
Rupert 40
Tina 40
Richard 39
Rupert 39
Gretchen38
Lex 38
Michael 38
Robert 38
Susan 38
Ted 37
John 36
Vecepia 36
Alicia 35
Chad 35
Deena 35
Leann 35
Rory 35
Zoe 35
Brian 34
Jeff 34
Brady 33
Chris 33
Ghandia 33
Hunter 33
Jerri 33
Matt 33
Travis 33
Alex 32
Alicia 32
Kel 32
Ami 31
Burton 31
JoAnna 31
John P 31
Ryan 31
Ethan 30
Gervase 30
Jerri 30
Ken 30
Mia 30
Sean 30
Sean 30
Shii Ann30
Colby 29
Jon 29
Kim P 29
Sandra 29
Shawn 29
Stacey 29
Stephanie 29
Tammy 29
Gina 28
Joel 28
Kimmi 28
Rob 28
Shii Ann 28
Brook 27
Daniel 27
Ethan 27
Jessie 27
Lindsey 27
Osten 27
Penny 27
Ramona 27
Tanya 27
Tijuana 27
Colby 26
Erin 26
Jenna 26
Rob 26
Robb 26
Amber 25
Brandon 25
Dolly 25
Jed 25
Rob 25
Christa 24
Christy 24
Clarence 24
Dave 24
Greg 24
Heidi 24
Nicole 24
Rob 24
Sarah 24
Colleen 23
Dirk 23
Elisabeth 23
Gabriel 23
Julie 23
Kelly 23
Mitchell 23
Nick 23
Ryan 23
Ryan 23
Shawna 23
Silas 23
Amber 22
Darrah 22
Jenna 22
Jenna 22
John K 22
Kelly 22
Michelle 22
Eliza 21
Jenna 21
Neleh 21

yeah, Christi voted for Jenna. It was him or "cweepy" Matt. That's the point. I'm not saying Jenna was completely undeserving, but I have trouble respecting someone who was only in the game because she was so sick and ready to quit nobody thought of her as a threat.

I'm also permanently soured on her for quitting All Stars.

I think women win more because men are viewed as threats, and thus booted. Also, individual challenges tend to be ones that are either neutral or benefit women - for instance, Brian is the only man to win an endurance challenge. I don't count Keith's win in Australia because Tina let him win.

If the endurance challenge wasn't standing, but instead holding up a hundred pound weight, do you still think women would win most F3 challenges?

I'm not saying that every other winner wasn't worthy because I think Brian is tied with Rich as the best. It's just a way of ranking them.

I rank them:

Rich/Brian
Sandra
Vecepia
Ethan
Amber
Jenna
Tina

For a variety of reasons. Some of them irrational, probably. :D But I also count what the person did during the entire course of the season.

Tina never won anything, and just rode Colby's coat tails. Along the way, she treated Keith like crap, treated Kel like crap, and made several critical mistakes that could and should have cost her the game (booting Jerri before Rodger and Elisabeth, for example. Had Amber been the player she thinks she is, she'd have jumped over to Kucha and gotten herself an F3 slot, quite possibly.)

Jenna just floated along. She gave away huge amounts of information that should have cost her dearly, had Rocketman Dave had any sense at all. She even tried to get herself voted off. Cesternino outthought himself, thus putting her in a position to win. Her season also featured some bizarre challenges seemingly designed to see a woman win.

Amber rode RobM's coattails. Mariano should have won that season; he played much harder, won more challenges, did virtually all the heavy lifting. He only lost because the "all stars" like Lex and Kathy were so stupid they actually forgot they were playing a game, and took things personally.

Ethan only won because KimJ liked him more than she liked Lex. That's all. He was a challenge "threat" of a professional athlete who only won 2 challenges, he did very little scheming, he even admitted later his role was to be #2 to Lex and hope it worked out.

Vecepia and Sandra took active roles in winning their seasons. Vee started the whole alliance hopping that Cesternino is credited with inventing. Sandra then took it a whole new level on her season.

One of Vee's tricks I love is that she used her luxury item (a journal) to keep notes on everybody in her tribe. That's why she cleaned up on the Fallen Comrades challenge.

Sandra is behind Vee because she didn't really have control of her fate at the end. It was all on Lillian Morris, who at that point was probably insane and just hated Fairplay. No way he was getting to the F2 without winning it, unless Sandra won. She'd have likely taken him. I dunno.

The reasoning for Brian and Rich are fairly evident, I hope. :D

[kaitykaity]

28. Okay . . . I'll try it another way.

You have a lot of data, and I'm sort of impressed by that, but
I have to say that the subjective opinions you've formed aren't
supported by your data.

For example, you've repeatedly made the assertion that the
endurance challenges are weighted to favor the women.

So? Don't most of the contestants have a general idea of what
the challenges are going to be? And shouldn't they be as prepared
for those challenges as possible?

The game is not biased against the men, and making excuses for men
only winning 38% of the games is hardly compelling.

Why is Jenna's way of surviving (being underestimated) any less
diabolical than fooling three ignoramuses who didn't talk to each
other about promises made?

Or Tina and Amber's way -- attaching themselves strong male players
and going along for the ride?

Brian's way is just your subjective preference.

I have my wish that Rob C. had won. When they showed him as a snake
all the time he stole my heart. He had it going on.

This Thursday is the make or break episode for this season for
me. If Chris doesn't win immunity or somehow manage to break
up that all-girl alliance, then the pecking order will play
itself out and I will snore all the way through to the end
when Ami picks up her million.

She'll deserve it, too. (One thing she won't have to spend it on
is breast implants. I think a lot of the boys were blinded by those
boobs.)

[lazarus]

29. heh heh

The endurance challenges seem to be weighted towards the women, simply because women tend to win them.

In the Europeans Survivors, men win all the endurance challenges. Go figure. :shrug:

I didn't say the game is biased against the men, just the final three challenge. Statistically, I'm right.

And the fact that 5 of 8 (soon to be 6 of 9) winners have been women shows that something's up. We've had an all-female F3, and two all-female F2's. Only one all male F2, and that was the hated Brian/Clay season. :P

And remember, I've said that it's subjective. There are people out there who think Amber and Jenna are the bestest winners ever. I vehemently disagree, but it's all subjective.

Oh, and Ami's got implants already. You haven't seen her layout in Playboy?

Also, I don't think being underestimated was a strategy of Jenna's. I think she really did want to go home. The barrier of quitting the show hadn't been broken by Osten yet. Note that she did quit the show once someone else had done it. She's permanently tainted forever by that in my eyes, as is Sue.

[Piperay]

8. Agree

it's hard to root for any of them when they are all so dumb. This season is really lackluster but I am still a big fan of Survivor. I just hope the next season is better.

[Biased Liberal Media]

26. It's been rather dull. I've been waiting for them to kick Eliza

off for the longest time. She's a poor man's Eliza Dushku.

[skippysmom]

33. VERY lackluster season

Especially compared to Amazon and Pearl Islands, which is my favorite season. The players have zero personality.

Brian was an ass, but he did play the game well.