Who got booted on Amazing Race last night? I missed it

[soleft]

[ernstbass]

1. The 2 blonds

The brothers just barely beat them. Rob and Amber are in first place now.

[lazarus]

2. you missed some real fun

Rob's hooked up with a couple of other teams, and they've started bribing people to make life difficult for the non-allied teams. :evilgrin:

[Vinca]

3. I hated Rob on Survivor and now I hate him again on the AR! n/t

[lazarus]

4. Ah well

I have a feeling Rob's winning this one. He's racing great, very, very smart.

I loved him on Survivor, too. Then again, I like cocky smartasses, since I am one. :evilgrin:

[ernstbass]

5. I like Rob too

He knows how to play the game and he seems to keep his emotions out of it.

[lazarus]

6. I loved his reaction

to the whole bribery/lying thing. The wink he gave the camera said it all: These people have NO IDEA what they're getting into if they want to start scheming against the Robfather.

[Piperay]

40. I wasn't very happy when I heard that

Rob and Amber were going to be on AR but I am really liking both of them and rooting for them to do well. :-)

[Orangepeel]

7. eh. I already watch survivor on Thursdays. I don't need it twice.

Rob is a very good racer. He's smart about the tasks and smart about finding information. But he's also an asshole and I really hope he loses.

smart racing and doing things right is good. intentionally impeding others is unfair and personally, I don't want it on the one reality show that isn't supposed to rely on scheming and backstabbing. Next week, why doesn't he bribe somebody to hide the flag so the other teams can't find the clue?

[Pithlet]

8. Yep. That's how I feel.

I've decided to stop watching until he's eliminated because I can't stand it. And if others decide to do that kind of crap regularly, I'll stop watching it altogether. It has totally ruined the show for me, and it's my favorite reality show. Hopefully he'll go soon, though I doubt it :(

[lazarus]

9. FYI

Ray is the one who came up with the idea to bribe the bus driver.

And this isn't any different from all the other "impedement strategies" we've seen before, in nearly every race.

I'd say Charla and Myrna were MUCH worse when they warned an airline person that another racing team "are bad people", given the terrorism problems, etc.

In the end, it all washed, though. Everyone found out about the express bus. As for the bus door, it was only held closed a few seconds.

More clever is the fact that Rob got other teams to spend money they shouldn't have.

He's playing very, very smart. Remember, the first people to start talking about "betraying" someone was Susan and Patrick, in regards to Rob and Amber. How is that any worse?

No rules were violated, no laws were violated. Good for him. His only mistake is showing his hand too early.

If you could stomach Jonathon the wife beater, I can't see how Rob is worse, I really can't.

[Pithlet]

11. Point by point

Ray is the one who came up with the idea to bribe the bus driver. I didn't see that. It's possible I missed it. It doesn't excuse it.

And this isn't any different from all the other "impedement strategies" we've seen before, in nearly every race. I haven't seen every season. I haven't seen any other racers actually impede others' progress. Lying, yes. I have nothing against that.

I'd say Charla and Myrna were MUCH worse when they warned an airline person that another racing team "are bad people", given the terrorism problems, etc. I didn't see that season, so I can't comment. If I'd seen that, I would have been upset about that, too.

In the end, it all washed, though. Everyone found out about the express bus. As for the bus door, it was only held closed a few seconds. Doesn't matter.

He's playing very, very smart. Remember, the first people to start talking about "betraying" someone was Susan and Patrick, in regards to Rob and Amber. How is that any worse? Smart does not equal ethical. Smart doesn't automatically make an act virtuous. And, Susan and Patrick have NEVER talked about or attempted to impede others' progress. This isn't about lying. This is about actively making it harder for others to complete the same tasks. That is not in the spirit of a true race.

No rules were violated, no laws were violated. Good for him. His only mistake is showing his hand too early. Just because there are no rules or laws doesn't automatically make it right.

If you could stomach Jonathon the wife beater, I can't see how Rob is worse, I really can't.What does what I think about Johnathon have to do with this? I hated John, too, remember? He was horrible to his wife. But, he didn't cheat. THAT is my issue. Horrible personalities alone don't necessarily weaken the integrity of the game. I hate Johnathan about the same level as Rob.

More clever is the fact that Rob got other teams to spend money they shouldn't have. That was also a shitty thing to do, but the players who gave him money deserved to lose their money.

You seem to think that somehow people already hated Rob, so that is why they're reacting exactly the way they are. I can't speak for others, but I can say for myself that it wouldn't have mattered who had done it. I would be equally disgusted. The fact that I already hated him certainly didn't make it hard. But, I don't ascribe different expectations to different people based on if I like them or not, and I will say that isn't a flattering accusation to make to anyone.

[lazarus]

13. Some response

The business with Ray is on the Insider footage.

Also on Insider footage is a good minute and a half of Susan and Patrick talking about how Rob and Amber hadn't "earned" a place on TAR. Patrick also states outright that he will be yielding Rob at the first opportunity, apparently whether it's good strategy or not.

As for impeding progress, we've seen people block doorways, steal taxis, jump ahead in lines, have "allies" in lines buy them tickets ahead of other teams, etc.

How is lying to someone about where a clue is less impeding, especially if one is trusted? That's happened before.

Yeah, you hated Jonathon, but you never stated you wouldn't watch the show until he was booted.

Rob did not cheat. There is no rule that I'm aware of against bribing people, or lying to people.

I do think people are reacting this way to Rob because of who he is and his reputation. This is the third season I've followed, and I've never seen this level of animosity towards a racer's actions, except for Jonathon's abuse of Victoria last season. And I simply don't see how Rob's actions are that bad.

[Pithlet]

17. Lying about a clue is less impeding

Because the clue is still in the same spot and still accessible. Every player has the same chance to find it for themselves. They can choose whether or not to trust another player and believe them, or they can look for themselves. You would EXPECT that a contestant might not be forthright. There IS a difference between deception and outright impediment. He bribed a person that works at that station, and is not a contestant, to not divulge information that was vital to the other players. Now, if other players are as smart and able as he is, and think to ask, they STILL won't get the information they need.

As far as jumping ahead in line, blocking doorways, etc.: If people don't bribe someone outside of the game to do those things, then that is fine. It's part of the race. THAT is the fundamental difference, here. Jockeying for position is part of a race. Bribing people outside of the game to place insurmountable obstacles to other contestants is NOT. Bribing a worker outside of the game (potentially getting HIM in trouble, I might add) is not the same thing as blocking a door yourself. YOU are a contestant, not the bus driver. He's not in the race.

RE: Cheating. Bribing officials and public workers in Peru is against the law, Laz. AR not including illegal activities in their rules doesn't change that. I don't think any show could possibly include in their rules every single little thing that is wrong, illegal and unethical to do. I don't care if semantically you can't call it "cheating" but it is just as bad, if not worse. Besides, do you think Rob gave one thought to what the laws were, and what might have happened to those workers? It's probable that nothing will, but does he know that for sure?

You are simply wrong about the perception of Rob being part of it. Other people have been blasted for things they've done on AR. It would be just as easy to accuse you of your love of The Robfather clouding your judgment and giving him a pass on illegal and unethical activity. I happen to think that the argument that AR doesn't explicitly have rules against what he did to be a weak rationalization for something that was just plain wrong.

[lazarus]

20. about bribing and the law

paying taxi drivers to break the law by speeding is just as bad, then, and every single team does it, from what I can tell. Or is that not as bad because it's not "impeding"?

BTW, I just took a look at the Amazing Race newsgroup. I have to apologise there were screams of outrage from people at just about everything for the past three seasons. This is nothing new. :hi:

[Pithlet]

21. No, Laz, it's not

Paying taxi drivers to speed isn't impeding other racers, for one thing. It IS a race, after all. For another, speeding is not nearly as egregious as bribing. Speeding is not just as bad as bribing. All crimes aren't equal.

What really gets me is that it is all unnecessary. Rob and Amber are excellent at this game, and have a good chance to win. All the crap they're pulling isn't even affording them that much more of an advantage than they already have, and only serves to piss everyone else off. I really do question how smart it really is, particularly since Yield exists. And, from what I've seen, he knows they're good. It all seems like assholery for assholery's sake, as if he has a rep to maintain. That wink tells that is the case.

[lazarus]

23. well

we already know that at least one other team is planning to Yield them regardless of the game situation (the mother/son team), so I imagine Rob and Amber have accepted that they'll be Yielded every time. That may be one reason he's trying so hard to stay in first place.

Speeding is, in my opinion, just as bad as bribery because it puts innocent people's lives at risk.

[Pithlet]

24. Well, it's not.

Bribing does not equal speeding ethically.

And, just because they know they may already be yielded doesn't excuse their actions.

[lazarus]

25. it doesn't

Bribing doesn't put anybody at physical risk.

Speeding puts innocent lives at risk. Somehow, that strikes me as being less ethical.

[Pithlet]

26. All I've ever seen anyone do on that show

is tell the driver to go fast because they're in a race. That doesn't necessarily mean they're going over the posted speed limit. Have they ever shown the posted speed limit, and then the speedometer? And, going over the posted speed limit doesn't always mean endangering others. If the speed limit is 35 on a long open stretch, and you go 40, does that automatically mean you're endangering others? Factor in driving ability and I think it is entirely possible to exceed an artificially low posted speed limit and still drive safely. Hell, going out on the road is always potentially endangering others. Driving is dangerous. I think you're really stretching it, here. For what it's worth, if a contestant drives recklessly without the regard of the safety of others, then yes, I would say that that is unethical. But, that still doesn't excuse what Rob did.

At any rate, if you want to equate telling the cab driver to go as fast as they can because they're in a race, to bribing a public worker to withhold information from other contestants, or to keep the door closed so they can't advance, then what am I going to say? I think it is ridiculous to equate those two things ethically.

[lazarus]

27. I agree it's ridiculous to equate them

because driving recklessly can kill people, while bribery can't.

We've seen just this season cab drivers making crazy attempts to pass other teams in the face of oncoming traffic. At least one racer has commented that he was going to be paying his driver extra for getting them there faster.

As for "what Rob did", I'm still waiting for just as much outrage at Ray, who came up with the idea, and the others, who paid for it.

[Pithlet]

28. I didn't see Ray do it.

If he did, then I'm just as outraged at Ray. You cannot fault people for not being outraged at Ray since what you saw was insider stuff that wasn't broadcasted on the show!

There is no evidence that anyone on that show has ever bribed a driver to drive recklessly. Telling a driver that "We're in a race, could you please hurry?" is not the same as "Drive however you want, and we don't care if you kill someone". In fact, I've seen passengers terrified for their lives at how cab drivers drive. A cab driver speeding? The hell, you say!

And, when all is said and done, it doesn't change the fact that what he did was wrong. An argument defending someone's actions by saying "Well, other people do other wrong things" isn't defending. It's rationalizing.

You're just trying to rationalize what he did, Laz. I'm sorry.

[lazarus]

30. I told you about Ray

further upthread.

but we have seen people pay cab drivers to speed.

Heck, two seasons ago Colin called ahead to the final city, asking for the craziest driver he could get, one willing to break the law, and had him waiting at the airport.

BTW, that same season we saw Colin's partner Christie steal all the maps at the entrance to a water park so nobody else could figure out where to go, and another team put up a fake sign-in sheet to cause another team to miss the first of two flights.

This sort of thing has been going on a long, long time. And it's apparently perfectly within the rules.

[Pithlet]

32. Yes, you told me about Ray

And at that time I told you Ray was wrong, too. I was responding to your disappointment that there isn't an anti-Ray campaign as well. It's because most people don't know Ray's involvement.

Colin was wrong. Still doesn't make Rob right. Christie pulled a Rob there, and if I'd been watching, I would have been outraged as well. What Christie did was on the level of Rob. See, we're talking about Rob, though. I don't see how any of this makes what Rob did any less of a bad thing. This is only the third season I've watched. In previous seasons that I've watched, no one asked a cab driver to drive recklessly, or bribe anyone. If I'd watched the season that Colin and Christie had been on, then it is likely I wouldn't be watching right now. Because the three seasons I've watched until Rob contained none of that, and that is why I've enjoyed it. But, if it's going to become more of an element because they're going to invite people like Rob, and then do nothing when they pull that crap, then I'm going to stop watching. As I have already, really.

[lazarus]

34. Okay

I just talked to a friend who's seen every episode of every season. She said that people have been pulling this stuff from the beginning.

Somewhere along the line, TAR fans got the idea that "their" show was some sort of pure competition, unaffected by human nature. But from what I've read and seen, it's just as nasty as Survivor or any other show.

[Pithlet]

39. Read my respone below.

I'm not being unreasonable in how I feel.

[lazarus]

10. Or maybe

he could tell someone the clue's in a different place.

Of course, we've seen that a lot on the show, but nobody got upset.

we've seen intentional impeding multiple times on this game. The only reason everyone's upset now is because Rob's the one doing it. Heck, he didn't even come up with the bus driver idea, Ray did. Are y'all going to start hating on Ray, too?

[Orangepeel]

12. Ray's the guy who told his partner to "suck it up" last week?

if so, I'm already hating on him. ;-)

I freely admit I don't like having "celebrities" on TAR, even if their only celebrity is having been on another show. I wouldn't mind a celebrity version of the race, where everyone was a previous contestant, but what I like(d) best about *this* show was that it was different than the others. Instead of being about backstabbing and intrigue, it was about "real" people being smart. Casting Rob and Amber (and previously, that Big Brother refugee) diminishes what I thought was the best aspect of TAR.

So, am I "harder" on Rob when he does sleazy things than I would have been on say, Colin, if he had done a sleazy thing? Maybe a little, but not much I think. Sleazy is sleazy.

And there is, IMO, a fundamental difference between lying to someone and engaging in an act that impedes them. If you lie (e.g., tell them the clue box is somewhere else) and they believe you instead of checking for themselves, much of the fault is with them. If you actively engage in behavior that causes them to be misled, through no fault of their own, I think that is unfair and you should be penalized.

[lazarus]

14. But they weren't misled

They all found out about the bus.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that Rob did that in part to get the other teams riled up at him. He's spoken on the Insider footage about how you can make it through the race and win without ever speaking to another team. So he's not relying on alliances or whatever to get him through.

And if the other teams spend all their time worrying about Rob and Amber and not racing, that's their own fault.

FWIW, I've had long discussions with Pithlet about the ethics of reality TV. My view is that anything allowed by the rules is fine. Fairplay's grandmother lie? Brilliant. Rob's betraying of Kathy and Lex? C'mon, I couldn't believe Lex was that stupid. :D

It's a game, and anything allowed in the game is not cheating. Heck, even Chip and Kim, the nicest couple ever to win anything in reality TV, lied and played a bit dirty towards the end of TAR5.

I do agree with you that a Reality TV All Star version of TAR would have been a better idea. I can think of several teams off the top of my head from Survivor that would be great.

Tom said he and Lex had discussed doing it. Ethan and JennaM are a pair, and I'd love to see the two least deserving Survivor winners get smoked out early. :evilgrin: (Fitting that they hooked up, isn't it?)

[Orangepeel]

15. Actually, it is the keeping the doors shut that bothers me

not the bus arrival time info. Even though bribing the driver not to open the doors probably had little impact on the game, it was still active interference with other teams and should have been, I believe, against the rules (I thought the same thing about previous seasons' teams sometime attempts to get attendants not to let teams on boats, etc., although I don't recall that ever working in episodes I've seen).

[ernstbass]

16. Tom and Lex - what a team they would make!

I would love to see that!! Big Tom lives about 70 miles from me - he's done a lot to promote reading in elementary schools.

[Pithlet]

18. They weren't misled

because they thought to ask the guy, just like Rob did, and he effectively spilled the beans on Rob. So, they wisely realized that Rob's bus must be the one to take. So, his little ruse ended up falling flat. Still doesn't excuse what he did.

[Pithlet]

19. Those discussions with me

were about Survivor. That is an insular game that is all about lies and deception. You can't really equate anything that happened on that show, and those like it, with what Rob did. All the things they do they're doing to other contestants and involved other contestants. I wouldn't equate anything ever done on Survivor, no matter how much I loath the action, with what Rob did on AR. The closest thing would be Fairplay because he DID involve people outside of the show, but it's still not quite as egregious as what Rob did.

And your view that anything allowed by the rules is fine is YOUR rule, I might add. I don't think that having a camera pointing at you absolves anyone of being an ethical person, nor does it shield you from being judged by your actions. I don't believe that anything in life does. Involving people outside of the game, and potentially getting them in trouble with the law, not to mention their boss, is unethical whether your on a TV game show with cameras pointed at you, or are a private tourist. The producers of a show and their legal staff who draw up contracts don't have magical powers to alter reality. In other words, I don't think sleazy is okay just because you're on a game show. Rationalization, that's' all that is.

[lazarus]

22. it's not rationalisation

it's just the game. You're either there to win or you're there to lose. Playing "nice" is great, but they don't give you bonus points for it.

If you're in a game, not taking advantage of the rules (without breaking them) is a good way to lose. Virtually every game I've played I've been very good at because I find loopholes and things in the rules that others haven't found that give me an edge. But I don't cheat. Taking advantage of the rules and structure of the game is not cheating, whether it's Survivor or Amazing Race or Texas Hold'em or Magic. Heck, I won entire tournaments in Magic because I found a rules interpretation that a lot of people hadn't figured out how to take advantage of yet.

And if the people outside the game are willing to take the risk of accepting a bribe, it's their responsibility. They're adults. Rob didn't force them to take a bribe. He just offered.

If you want to add an additional rule to your own gameplay that limits your options, go ahead. You're just putting yourself at a disadvantage. (Note that "you" in this case is rhetorical, not you personally.)

And one last thing. I've already made clear that Ray was the "mastermind" behind bribing the bus driver, but I haven't seen anybody shift the focus of their disgust to him. It's still on Rob.

[Pithlet]

29. No

Being in a game doesn't excuse it. Being in a game doesn't excuse unethical behavior. Something is either ethical or it isn't. If there are situations that warrant a behavior, then it isn't unethical. Contracts and cameras don't magically make something right. Just because something is a game doesn't change things.

And you are rationalizing it. Bribing is wrong. You're defending that with arguments that really don't hold up very well. Other people do bad things. So? It's a game.Again, so? Other people hate themDoesn't excuse it. Someone else thought of it first, I saw it on insiders Okay, then he's wrong too. I guess Rob isn't as smart as we thought after all, if he didn't think of it. He still shouldn't have done it. All rationlizations. If they work for you, and make you feel better about those actions, then fine. But you're not going to convince me that cameras and contracts excuse unethical behavior. You're just not.

[lazarus]

31. It's not cameras and contracts that do it

it's the fact that they're playing a game.

Should I not lie when I'm playing poker? That's not strictly part of the rules, or even part of the game. There's bluffing, and then there's pure lying. I've done both, and won and lost money to players who do both. Doesn't matter to me, I know when I sit down to play not to trust anybody.

As for the bribery being illegal, again, these were adults he was bribing, and they had the choice to take the bribe or not.

What is unethical behaviour, anyway? It's behaviour that violates the social contract, essentially. But that contract is changed when one enters a game. One is now in a competition with other people.

I know I can't convince you to excuse unethical behaviour. I'm just trying to show you that this behaviour isn't unethical. It's sneaky and underhanded, but not unethical.

[Pithlet]

33. No

What Rob did was unethical, because he included people outside of the game. I've told you this over and over. Rob was in the game, yes. That is why I don't care if he lies to other contestants who are also in the game. That is another thing I've said to you many times. It is his involvement with people outside of the game to impede other contestants, and possibly jeopardizing that outsider, that is unethical. I've said to you that lying in a game is not unethical when the whole point of the game is lying. I'm not arguing that. You are defending actions that went outside of the game. Unethical actions. Because the person perpetrating them was involved in a game doesn't excuse those behaviors.

I will say that the spirit of TAR is a bit different in that it is supposed to be a race, and not quite the same "Outwit Ouplay" mentality of Survivor. At least not at the same level. It's why the behavior on Survivor doesn't affect me in the same way that some similar things would on TAR. It's why I enjoy TAR for different reasons than I do Survivor. I don't like everything I see happen on TAR because I think it sometimes violates the spirit of the game. But, I wouldn't call them unethical, necessarily. Rob's actions on the last episode, however, were.

[lazarus]

35. I still don't see it

because the nature of the race is that they are interacting with the rest of the world. They're not on an island somewhere. Everything they do is part of the game, and the whole world is part of the game, because it's a race around the world.

And I appreciate your concern for that bus driver, but he's a grown man who made a decision. He could just as easily have told them no.

I'll let it go with the following:

One thing that makes a team smart is learning from their experiences as they race. In episode one, Rob and Amber learned that bus drivers in Peru can be bribed, and used it to their advantage, propelling them to the front of the pack. This week, they continued to use bribery as a racing tool. It didn’t quite work as well as it could have with the security guard at the bus station, but it worked beautifully on the bus driver, who took the money to open only the front door of the bus. Even better, Rob handled the payoff, which allowed him to pocket his own promised contribution to the cause! Maybe the other teams didn’t think it was funny, but I thought it was a great move.

The four teams involved in that scheme finished in the first four positions, though that wasn’t the only reason behind that. However, it is an indication that these teams see and seize opportunities, something the better racing teams have in common. Sometimes a small advantage like that pays off later. In this case, they were the first teams to the roadblock, which gave them an edge in completing it more quickly, and thus getting on the first plane. That provided an edge in the second half of the leg. At some point, it might be the edge needed to win the race, or keep from being eliminated.

From Reality News Online's analysis of the show.

He went on to criticise Lynn and Alex. When they found out about the express bus, why did they expose Rob and Amber instead of simply getting on that bus themselves, thus vaulting them ahead of 5 teams? Bad gameplay.

[Pithlet]

38. If a person isn't bothered by it

And wants to continue to watch the show, fine. I won't. I'm sorry. You won't ever convince me to be okay with this, or make me feel like I'm being unreasonable about this. You don't understand my reasoning on this. Well, I really don't understand yours.

[Phentex]

36. The parts I like best are about strategy!...

Figuring things out at the airport, thinking through a challenge instead of just reacting to the clue. REAL clues where they have to think instead of just get from point A to point B. This show is more than just racing around the world.

I can't stand Rob, but I will give him credit for thinking. You don't have to be a genius to realize taking more than one trip to carry books was STUPID! So why not figure out how to get all of them on the first time?

I hated Will and Tara during one season, but I gave them credit for thinking about things that others did not think about. I'll do the same for Rob and Amber. My original beef with them was letting on the show to begin with. I don't need to see them there. But now that it's a done deal, I can enjoy watching them play the game.

[Orangepeel]

37. just an interjection about the books....

in addition to stacking the books efficiently, Rob and Amber had an advantage in getting to the bookstore first because they could use smaller books. As teams got there later, the books left were bigger and thus, it was more likely that two trips was necessary.