Carnivale - Cheyenne, WY - Episode 22

[NashVegas]

Oh, my goodness this is heating up.

Didn't someone on this board predict Sophie was going to wind up taking care of Norman? Good call, although this may not be what was had in mind.

I wonder if Sophie will get any visions off of Norman as to exactly how he wound up in his present condition.

Justin & Scudder: I wasn't expecting that. I was, but not like that. Did Justin get his full boon? I'm guessing not; how much conscious thought transference you gonna get off of a headless body?

Scudder, I'll miss ya.

[robbedvoter]

1. Justin either got his full boon or madness (as he is alive)

Judging by his reaction.
Best parts of the story tonight - the changing dynamics in the Justin family.
The creepiness of the Ruthie posession was interesting as well.
I'm afraid this is the last season too.

[liberalnurse]

9. Not me.....

I think there definately will be a third season. The ratings have gone way up!

[Toucano]

2. Pretty gruesome wasn't it?

It was a really good episode.

I felt that Justin hiding in the back seat was a bit of a cliche, but I can forgive it.

I found myself laughing a couple of times, like at the line, "First class, that's me." and when "Fritz" the hotelier described the woman as "full of donuts."

There are some really good performances in this one.

[liberalnurse]

6. I was laughing when

Lila and Lodz/Ruthie were have a "moment" in the sack. Poor Ruthie, she doesn't have a clue!

In the preview for next week...I think Sophie gets wise to Justin a bit when she recognizes "Ben's" mask and Justin yells.

[Kire]

3. Is this the final season?

they said only two episodes until the "final battle". I never heard if it was being picked up again or not.

[Toucano]

7. I think the story will be over.

In America, we have a bad habit of dragging things out beyond their natural conclusions.

That's why so many shows are said to have "jumped the shark", I think.

When books were serialized in magazines, they had a beginning and an end. More television programs should be the same way.

[Kire]

8. fine by me

it will be glorious, but since it doesn't say "series finale" or "season finale", just "finale", the question remains

[Toucano]

10. I think I'm wrong.

Over at the HBO forum, someone refers to a chat where it appears the Dan Knauf, the creator has four seasons planned.

You're right about HBO not announcing another season, but I think it's pretty much a given, if there's still a story left to tell anyway.

This news changes my whole outlook! LOL!

[Kire]

4. holy shit, three people posted a reply to this thread at the same time

when I opened this thread, there were no replies, I posted a comment, and then there were three

surreal

Edited: especially since the original post is a half hour old

[liberalnurse]

5. I did....but......

I said it would be her first assignment.....My thinking was that she would be good at taking care of an invalid having such experience with her mother. Justin did not know this, he just wants to separate Norman and Iris. The one thing that Justin does not realize is that Norman can communicate by writing. I bet Sophie can also facilitate silent communication too.


I do not think Justin got a real "boon" from Scudder. Why? Because Ben did not feel anything....Remember how Justin had a seizure like episode when Ben received his "gift" from Management...a willing donation. That may be the difference.

I expected more from Scudder......

[lazarus]

11. otoh

Ben's never felt anything when Justin did his stuff, whilst Justin freaks out every time Ben does something.

Here's a question:

Is the vision Iris had of the past or the future? Did Justin at some point 20 years ago rape Appy, or is he going to rape Sofie, or both?

[soleft]

12. I think Justin raped Appy and Sofie is his daughter

There was an earlier vision where we saw the Usher raping Appy - so there was a question about whether Justin was Sophie's father, Iris pretty much said, yeah, we were in Minnesota, and the image of the person raping Appy was a young man - so I think Justin raped Appy and Sophie is his daughter.

[OKNancy]

13. Yes, that is what I got too.

Justin was a younger man in that scene. The rapist had dark hair.

As an aside, you know a show is good when you wake up thinking about it and scenes run through your head. This show is mesmerizing IMO.

[Mabus]

24. Not to mention it was in ST. PAUL

As I understand it (not being a Christian) Matthias replaced Judas as an aposotle and ministered with the other original apostles. Later Paul was made an apostle who went out to convert Gentiles.

Okay, here's how I see it relating to Carnivale.

Justin, while raping Appy, says something about giving her a chance. My guess is that Avatar/Justin was willing to give Appy a chance to join him voluntarily (?) and when she refused he raped her. Because Justin wasn't aware of his powers until recently and Iris has been protecting Justin (and it is through her memory that we know about the rape) I don't think Justin is aware/remembers the rape.

I'm also guessing that Sophie will begin to minister, becoming a protege of Justin, ala Aimee Semple McPherson a radio evangelist during the 20's. (Bad pun warning: the Crowe takes his young under his wing.)

So, Justin is following the Matthias/Templar road (preaching to his own, i.e., other im/migrants, travelers) and Sophie will follow the Paul/Christian model reaching out to those who are different than herself (non-carnies i.e., those who don't roam like more mainstream people). Either way it would be a way to increase Justin's flock.

Also remember that Aimee SM disappeared at the height of her popularity and the explanation she gave was that she had been kidnapped. She disappeared while swimming but turned up about a month later fully clothed and in Arizona. The speculation has gone for years as to what really happened. Some think she had an abortion or ran off with one of her lovers. http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/la/scandals/aimee.html

Is this too far fetched?

[imenja]

28. it looks like it does it

but he'll be sexually involved with her nonetheless

[NashVegas]

14. otoh, otoh

Did Justin ever feel anything Ben did before Ben healed Schudder? I can't remember his reaction, if there was one, to Ruthie's healing.

I was half expecting to hear Clancy Brown shout, "There can be only one" when he was digging on his new powers.

[trotsky]

16. Yes, Justin reacted to Ruthie's resurrection.

It's at the very beginning of the first episode of Season 2. He's in the middle of a sermon and suddenly stops, unable to continue.

Maybe each successive reaction is more intense?

[liberalnurse]

15. Iris was remembering the event.

Apparently, she and Justin were visiting in St. Paul, MN. and Iris saw/caught Justin in the act. The scene was her memory of the event. She appears to of just realized Sophie is Justin's child.

[lazarus]

17. Having done some reading

here's a theory I like on why Justin feels Ben's mojo, but not the other way around.

When Ben heals, he pulls life energy out of other things to do it. And, being linked to the CoD, the CoD gets hit, too.

Notice that Ben has two ways of healing: physical and spiritual. Notice that nothing bad ever happens when he does the spiritual healings (woman in Ep. 1, Crooked Man, etc.). According to DK, this is because he uses love to spiritually heal, and love is never subtracted, only multiplied.

Bro. Justin's mojo doesn't affect anyone else because it's turning one's own evil against oneself.

[robbedvoter]

21. Excellent stuff, thanks. It's stuff like that that keeps me hooked

to Carnivale.

[robbedvoter]

32. Last Daniel Knauf post on this:

From:  "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@y...>
Date:  Tue Mar 15, 2005  11:36 am
Subject:  Re: Why no reaction from Ben?

--- In [e-mail], "angies91" <angies91@y...> wrote:
>
> During the chat last night Tracy Torme implied that perhaps it was a
writing mistake that Ben didn't feel it when Justin got his boon. If
it was it was a rare one indeed; not a lot of missteps from these writers.


Actually, I think Tracy was the one who made a misstep. Since the
beginning of the series, we have firmly established the "Ben heals,
Justin feels" phenom, but we have never shown Ben suffer ill effects
when Justin draws on his power. In other words, it's a one-way
street. When I was vetting Tracy's script, it actually occurred to me
to have Ben "Feel" the passing of the boon (actually, I thought it
would be kinda cool) but, as no precedent had been set, I felt it was
illogical and would create confusion.

I'm sure that, had I gone the other route, the board would be full of,
"Hey, wassup with THAT" letters.

Oh well...

D.

[liberalnurse]

25. Here is why Justin had "no quickening" with his boon.

Here is DK's clarification from the Yahoo group today.

From: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:36 am
Subject: Re: Why no reaction from Ben?

--- In [e-mail], "angies91" <angies91@y...> wrote:
>
> During the chat last night Tracy Torme implied that perhaps it was a
writing mistake that Ben didn't feel it when Justin got his boon. If
it was it was a rare one indeed; not a lot of missteps from these writers.


Actually, I think Tracy was the one who made a misstep. Since the
beginning of the series, we have firmly established the "Ben heals,
Justin feels" phenom, but we have never shown Ben suffer ill effects
when Justin draws on his power. In other words, it's a one-way
street. When I was vetting Tracy's script, it actually occurred to me
to have Ben "Feel" the passing of the boon (actually, I thought it
would be kinda cool) but, as no precedent had been set, I felt it was
illogical and would create confusion.

I'm sure that, had I gone the other route, the board would be full of,
"Hey, wassup with THAT" letters.

Oh well...

D.

[NashVegas]

18. Justin's Boon

I re-watched the show last night. In a scene in the house, Talbot-Smith explained to Justin that if Scudder was taken by surprise and killed, the boon would be passed on. So I guess Justin did indeed receive it. We'll find out soon enough, I reckon.

[trotsky]

20. But what if he was taken by surprise while still on drugs?

I'm willing to bet there's some little twist there.

[liberalnurse]

42. I agree.....

I don't think the writers would minimize this important transaction....Ghee, there is an entire "storyline layer" devoted to Scudder and Avatars getting the boon. They threw in at the last minute an important point that the boon must be given willingly.....

It's either poor writing,(compared to the high caliber writing of the show) or there is more to be revealed.

Your guess is as good as mine.

[haele]

45. But does he get a full boon?

That he receives the fullness of power, I have no doubt; but an awareness on "the rules" of full usage and memories, I do have some doubt. As with any talent; scientific, philosophical, or artistic - there is a major difference in skill and ability between talent provided by bloodline (or genetics) and talent enhanced with teaching.

I would imagine that there's a certain amount of awareness that's required to pass complete memories and "instructions". Ben would be able to receive full memories and "lessons learned" because Management had planned his own transfer of power and had been preparing and guiding Ben's awareness over the past couple months. Would Justin receive the same training by killing Scudder unaware, even as Scudder is in an avatistic state?
I especially doubt that a book could give Justin much guidance on how to use, how to "nuance" his powers. Right now, all Justin has is the raw ability with his own "ministerial" training to keep him from just using the powers as a bludgeon. He has very little knowledge of what he needs to be completely aware of his surroundings and where his weaknesses would actually lie. I also have this feeling that Scudder might not have completely found his own center; having taken himself out of the game for as long as he had.

However, if Justin becomes aware of Sophie's lineage and her power with card reading/symbolic guidance...there's a certain amount of guidence and awareness that such talent can provide. He could possibly use her card reading as a guidepost for fully developing his powers and identifying where his own weaknesses would be.
Right now, the series has shown that there's chinks and holes in Justin's awareness, and he's still acting in a reactionary manner, rather than actually anticipating what is going on and what can be realistic outcomes. He's got his plans, and he acts as if that's a reality he can create, and he's not acting as if he were aware that to make his plans come to fruition, he must be able to willingly adapt them to what is actually happening. It's pretty much an inability to be curious of, take responsibility for, or seize initiative of what is going on around him outside of his "head".

Of course, that inibility to be aware is part of what defines "evil", isn't it? The ego overcoming the rational?

My two cents

Haele

[NashVegas]

19. BTW - Rennes Le Chateau

Anyone else hear that and giggle?

[robbedvoter]

22. Why giggle? Lots of stories there:

http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/metis.htm

[NashVegas]

23. A Nod and a Wink

to the conspiracy theorists is definitely worth a giggle.

[liberalnurse]

26. More of Dan's feedback

to the Carnivale groupies.....


: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@y...>
Date: Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:50 pm
Subject: Re: Online Petition to HBO for Season Three

--- In [e-mail], "Tony Bones" <tbmortician@y...>
wrote:

> What HBO wants is what will capture that time
> slot, and their decision will be made without any comments I have
> either/or, or the rest of us. Everyone do as they wish, I am just
> going to treasure the next two episodes and hope for the best while
> expecting the worse.
>
> Bones

Bones, with all due respect, you are absolutely, categorically wrong.
This is not broadcast network television. This is subscriber cable.
Ratings are a factor, but they are far from THE factor. If you doubt
me, I can only say one word:

Arli$$.

So please, folks, keep that snail-mail coming. Especially you, Bones.
Put your articulate and compelling powers of persuasion to work for
the CoLs, and tilt a windmill or two. It's fun.

D.

[imenja]

27. Sophie is the Omega

What does that mean?

[robbedvoter]

30. The end all - from alpha to omega.

That judgement tarot card she drew may refer to herself. it seems to say that in the end, it will all be up to her.

[imenja]

29. Who is Good and who is evil?

Okay, I'm become a later Carnivale viewer but caught up on last year's episodes on DVD. This is an epic battle of good and evil, with Justin as evil and Ben as good. But could it be the other way around? Scudder appears to be evil--black eyes, etc... but he is Ben's father. And Justin's father was Management. So what's with this generational role change? And now Iris, after doing so much bad stuff, appears to be lining up against Justin. Is it possible we can't tell good from evil here? Might that be the point?

[robbedvoter]

31. Genetics are irrelevant with avatars - good can beget evil (Management-

belyakov was good - but got Justin, and the opposite is also possible - Scudder got Ben. This is from another one of those meaty posts by Daniel Knauf.

[imenja]

33. How do we know Management wasn't evil

He seemed like a nasty SOB to me. Where are these posts by Daniel Knauf that you refer to?

[lazarus]

34. Yes, Management was sort of nasty

That's part of Knauf's point: Good people can commit evil acts, and evil people can commit good acts.

No absolutes. Despite being an avatar, you're still who you are. That's why Scudder, despite being the Child of Dark, ran. He didn't want to fulfill his destiny

Knauf's been posting all over the place. I don't have any links handy, but Google on Carnivale and you'll find some amazing fan sites. One of them has weekly chats with either Knauf or some other person on the show.

[imenja]

35. So what's going on with Iris?

Why do we suddenly discover that she is really against Justin? She has committed murders to protect him and now she's supposedly on the side of good?

[liberalnurse]

36. She is the eldest....

and I think back when she and Justin were still with their mother, that she was taught to protect her little brother. Now knowing that he is an Avatar, son of Management, the mother may of filled her head with lots of misconceptions. We do know that there were men hunting them according to young Iris....thats what she believed anyways. This was told in Season One at the train wreck.

We do know the end result of a female who bears an Avatar is insanity. So who knows what crazy things their mother told them, especially Iris.

[Mabus]

37. Can you blame them?

You can't assume that Justin's mother knew either Management or Justin was an Avatar. Most of the Avatars don't seem to know it themselves until the Avatar's spirit begins to seek its destiny. And even then, like Ben, we know there can be some confusion as to what is really happening. What Avatars seem to have in common is the need to roam. So, did Management roam after Justin was conceived? And how much did Plemina know about Management's being an Avatar?

We do know the end result of a female who bears an Avatar is insanity.

Look at that women Justin's had sex with, they end up on his floor going/gone crazy. Imagine if you were married to one of them. Heck, I'd lose it too.

[Mabus]

38. We've always made some assumptions about Iris

We've all assumed that Iris is Justin's full sister. Couldn't she be a half-sister? Or not even related? For all we know Iris was an orphan that Plemina was taking care of/adopted. You know like my one of "brothers" whose been in my life so long that he's like a member of the family? So far all the Avatars have been only children. Remember after Scudder was born his mom killed the men in her family. It's pretty obvious that Iris doesn't have any "powers" because she had to resort to arson to kill the kids and used a boat oar on Eleanor otoh Justin snapped that guy's neck when he was just a child.

With all that said, Iris has known for a long time that Justin was different and not necessarily "good." She witnessed him snapping the guy's neck when Justin was a child and she saw him rape Appy. She has seen him time & time again use his abilities to intimidate and eliminate people who stand in his way. If she wanted to get rid of him she (assuming she has any common sense) would have done it long before now. If she (and Justin) convince Balthus that she is on his side she becomes his confidant and will know (as she did with Eleanor) when it is time to off him. She may feel a little shut out right now, i.e., Justin's doing stuff without consulting her, but at the same time he saved her and she is loyal to him.

[NashVegas]

44. My Take On Iris - For Now, Anyway

We know Iris has always been devoted to Justin. We know she knows "bad men" tried to kill him when he was a boy.

We also know she is an extremely devout woman.

We don't know that she actually witnessed the rape of Apollonia. We know she had a vision of it when she was gripping Sophie's arm.

We know Iris has always believed Justin had a great destiny.

You've got to keep in mind the god of Carnivale is the Old Testament God. He was no angel. Moses might have been a hero to the Jews, but he also sent plagues and brought on the Angel of Death.

So, *if* Iris is sincere in what she's saying to Balthus, I don't have a hard time buying her actions. Iris is playing the role she believes has been assigned to her in this game.

What I question is, did Iris know Justin would be the Child of Dark, or did she think he was going to be 'the good guy' and got the surprise of her life?

[Toucano]

39. What did Iris throw on the table during the dinner scene?

It looked like keys, but I'm not sure.

[lazarus]

40. silverware

And, if it was really silver, I'm sure someone can come up with a Judas link. ;-)

[Toucano]

41. That makes perfect sense.

Thanks.

[trotsky]

43. Ha ha - great catch! n/t

[Arwennick]

46. After Scudders death,what was with the rain?

Was it a rebirth of power of some sort?

I cannot connect the dots on that one yet.