Encouraging a fox to keep his distance

[RedLetterRev]

Several other threads have gotten me to think about this problem lately and I'd like to see if other folks have managed to co-exist peacefully with critters.

A couple of years ago, my partner and I moved to the country. I mean way out. No cable, no DSL, practically have to pipe in daylight. We have three good-sized dogs: a cattledog-springer mix who is my partner's service assistant; a smooth collie-chessie(?) mix; and a collie-who-knows-what mix. They're all well-socialized, trained using all-positive, zero-aversive methods, indoor dogs, brought up to be very gentle since my partner is disabled. They really can't take on wild critters. Since I trained them to be gentle, it's also my responsibility to take up for them and defend them

When they're out for potties, they're supervised, but dogs being dogs, you can't watch them every split second, nor can you keep your eye on every inch of woods every second. Which brings me to the point of my post.

There has been a fox running around lately, trying to get at my neighbor's chickens. He's traversed our yard often in his quest for a chicken dinner (which, if my neighbor catches him, will earn him wings, alright, and a harp of his own). We've heard him and our girls have growled from inside the house. For their "last potty of the night" I've been going out with them with a pistol on in case Mr fox gets any ideas to approach, but I'd really, really rather discourage him from coming around at all. My girls don't know they can't defend themselves against something wild and I REALLY don't want to take the chance I might accidentally shoot one of them instead of a marauding fox or raccoon bent on running them out of "its" territory.

My gut says they would "probably" run from it, but I don't know that and I'm not willing to chance it. Dora, the assistant, is much, much too valuable to lose, let alone the emotion, training, and devotion we've put into her. My partner cannot do without her -- she is his freedom to move about safely in the world.

All of them have been/are being trained as assistants, regardless of whether they make the cut (Dora did, the middle won't, the youngest might); they represent a huge amount of emotional investiture as well as daily hours of training and exercise. They're more than tools; they're more than friends; they are our babies.

Is there "something bigger's" urine or something else that might be effective in encouraging him/them to move on? Vacuuming up the dog-hair from the house and emptying the canisters around the edges of the yard (that's a 2-acre plot by itself; we've got another 6 acres of woods) didn't phase him a bit. The raccoon I saw out a while back seems to have moved on. The groundhog ignores the fox and laughs at the dogs. It's the fox I still kinda worry about, since it tends to prowl about the same time the girls have their last tinkle for the night.

Any advice would be appreciated. We try to keep as green/calm/non-invasive as we can on our little farm.

[MineralMan]

1. In reality, a fox won't

approach your dogs, nor interact with them, most likely. Foxes are small, cautious members of the canine family, and generally do not provoke conflict with animals larger than themselves.

What's most likely is that you'll never see the little vulpine critter when the dogs are about outdoors. It will just skirt your property to avoid the situation.

Now, if it were a coyote, that would be another matter, but I wouldn't get too concerned about a fox, unless rabies is rampant in your area.

[uppityperson]

2. I agree with this. Unless rabies are an issue, I wouldn't worry about a fox.

Foxes are small and fluffy and I don't see them attacking any dog beyond maybe a pocket puppy. Even that is doubtful. Foxes are shy and cautiousl

If your dogs attack it, it would probably try to flee, then snarl and do what it could to get away. I'd be more concerned about coyotes, but even they usually run from dogs.

Be excited to see a fox, and congratulations if you have one as they are usually difficult to spot. Unless you have chickens they can get at.

[RedLetterRev]

6. They'd set up a fuss, but they're uninclined

to attack anything. They only things they're allowed to run toward are squirrels. Those have home-court advantage of distance from the back door and proximity to trees. But its great sport for the dogs. They've been taught that everything else is "NO!" -- if they don't know what something is, they're to set up a fuss. That's part of their service training and it's a good idea for any dog living in the country.

Potentially, that saved my middle girl's life. She encountered a copperhead in the yard. She didn't approach it, but she did set up a fuss, got between it and me, and stayed well away from it until I could get there to see what was the matter.

Good to know what's what. There are some critters that will show no compunction or mercy if they sense that another animal is either weaker or uninclined to fight. I prefer to tread as lightly as possible on my little corner of the world. Again, since my girls are trained as service dogs and have had aggression set aside for gentleness in every situation, it's my job to keep them as safe as I can and I want to do that job with every non-lethal means available to me.

[foxfeet]

3. I agree with the above posts.

A fox is extremely unlikely to attack a pack of three dogs, or even one if the dog is larger. You can buy concentrated bobcat urine to set up a perimeter. No guarantees, but it might work. Check with your local county agricultural agent or with your fish and wildlife department ( or whatever y'all call it there) for rabies info and further suggestions. Good luck!

[panader0]

4. My advice: Leave the fox alone.

You moved into his area. Nature will take it's course, without a pistol. Foxes are beautiful and threatened (as your post proves).
I too live 'way out in the boonies, with lots of coyotes and javelina and hawks and big owls. We have lost several cats, and had a dog wounded badly by the javelina, but this is their turf, and I would never shoot them (don't even have a gun)
My chicken coop is predator proof. It's east to do. Have a zoo nearby? Get some lion shit and spread it around.

[RedLetterRev]

5. Well, that's a relief to know

although there are coyotes in the county, but they've kept themselves down south a good ways. So far. They're under no particular pressure to leave their own wild areas, though it's possible one may wander. It has happened before. I remain wary and vigilant against those.

Foxes shy? Don't bet on it! Our little visitor saunters right through the yard on his way to see if he has any better luck getting a chicken dinner. You should see Dora at the window -- every hair on her body stands straight out. If she weren't in such high dudgeon, it'd be hilarious. I've seen plenty of dogs with their hackles up; never saw one puff up like a bottle brush. That's m'girl :)

I've seen foxes out in the daylight in Florida. I used to work in an industrial park in Boca Raton that had some wild area around it. Several times a week one made an appearance, hunting mice and lizards and wasn't shy a bit. They do tolerate humanity and clearly don't mind if there are dogs around.

It's easy enough to bring foxes around. If you have one or two around, they'll accept dog food at the edge of the woods. A co-worker of mine throws a scoop or two out for them every night and his game-camera takes nice photos. They'll take some nice veggies, too. I just didn't know how to get them to keep a respectful distance if I needed to. BTW, the cheaper dog food with high corn content may get raided by the deer first. My co-worker's wife was surprised to find a couple of yearlings following her back to her house, sniffing at the bag, after she'd been putting scoops out for her fox for a while. They all catch on quick.

If my little furry friend keeps his distance, he has my sufferance. On my side of the drive, he hasn't bothered anything (although he's quite welcome to the young groundhog that's taken up residence under my shed).

Now, as for my neighbor and his chickens, Mr Fox is on his own and taking his life in his own paws there.

[uppityperson]

7. Beware the racoons though. They are pests and can bother dogs, and are more likely to have rabies.

[RedLetterRev]

9. That's exactly what set me off in the first place

Seeing a raccoon out in the daylight. As it turned out, this one wasn't rabid, but he had discovered a really easy meal, wrecking my bird feeders. Once I moved the bird feeders away from the woods-line, he quit showing up. It was still close enough to the trees where the birds felt secure, but far enough where the 'coon didn't. Problem solved.

From what I understand, nine times out of nine-and-a-quarter, if a raccoon is out in the daylight, a suspicion of rabies is high on the list. Whereupon I bought my first rifle and shotgun. Rabies is not to be played with. As gentle a being as I am, as much as I would do anything non-lethal to find ways to co-exist with my woodland neighbors, I find no compunction to shoot anything demonstrably rabid. My girls' shots are up-to-date, but there is no reason to test them.

Otherwise, I've enjoyed near-perfect success in training my woodland "pets" the same way I train my own beloveds: redirection and retargeting. All-positive/zero-aversive methods worked fine with my dogs and they're sane, happy, gentle, confident, and secure in themselves. "My" deer are happy enough with my arrangements to stick their noses out of the woods to let me know when they're out of treats. When I'm being stared at, it's time for me to get up and get moving (who's behavior-modified whom???) I figure, if I've taken a couple acres of territory from them, I owe them something back. (Btw, my yard has been a yard for 15 years {13 before I got there} and a tobacco field for at least 200... it's not as if I culled it out myself. I bought an existing home that was in foreclosure.)

Rather than letting them feast in my garden, I give them easier-to-get tasty treats on trails away from the garden. I empty vacuum canisters with doggy-hair around the edge of the yard and around the garden. I've taught the girls to do their tinkles between the garden and the woods. Stuff like that. The girls have their yard and the garden is surrounded by that. They're not allowed in the woods -- that belongs to the critters and that's their home where they've a right to be unmolested. My gardens and berry fields are unmolested and everyone's happy.

[uppityperson]

10. What treats do you give the deer? My deer and I have a different arrangement, in parts

they are welcome to teach me what plants to not grow outside the fenced garden, and I accommodate them. My dog gets to chase any deer he sees to the edge of the woods then come back (for some reason he was well trained when we got the pound puppy at 1 1/2 yrs old. Only poops in tall grass/brush and chases only to woodline) (must say that the tall grass brush bit makes walks in the city a bit challenging though).

I have shocked some City Kids who visit and are sooooo happy to see deer roaming the yard ("Deer!") but the dog doesn't hurt them, merely lets them know it is daytime.

What do you feed them to keep them away from your stuff? A couple summers ago it was so dry here that they were eating every plant they could find, even euphorbias. I've had no luck with dog pee or fur or much of anything. Have had them eat a potted tomato that was on my porch even. Argh.

The raccoons and I have a similar arrangement. They get to stir my compost and as long as I have a (closed) live-trap stuck through the chickenwire into the chicken yard, they leave the chickens alone. I have to be very creative about bird feeders because of them and the rats from the neighbor's unattended travel-trailer complex. However, having the raccoons blenderize my tiny pocket pond is very annoying. For some reason they haven't done this for a yr, maybe one of these days the water lily will actually get to do something.

[RedLetterRev]

11. It's been trial and error to figure out what they like

since the neighbors way down the hill also feed them. I was really surprised to find out that they like the cheapest dry dog food, then I figured out later that has the highest corn content and not much else in it. At worst, it won't hurt 'em and it's not terribly expensive. It keeps well, too. They're a bit wary of "deer corn" because around here that usually means that a *bang* might come at any time (not in my yard, it won't), but they have accepted it. They love watermelon leavings in the summer and the cull tomatoes I carry down for them. They also seem okay with leftover amaranth greens and whatever browsy-stuff I cull from the garden and leave as offerings down inside the woodsline. We'll see if they leave my quinoa alone this summer.

In the winter, they have to make do with veggie offerings from the kitchen, but between them and the squirrels, nothing gets wasted.

Inedible-but-compostable goes to compost piles (I've various types), but I haven't noticed much of anything rooting around in them. If it comes from the earth, it goes back to the earth. Roses and tomatoes like bones, tomatoes love well-fermented coffee grounds, and so on. That durned groundhog goes where he wants to. (Note to self: Tractor Supply, live trap, and a visit to the gamelands to relocate him.)

I've had pretty good luck with the deer avoiding my azaleas, but those are well-up the hill, out in the open. They're also an ever-blooming hybrid I got to put around my wedding-garden and might not be as tasty, even with laurels of all sorts being a pretty-much last-resort browse. The worst problem I've had is with rabbits nibbling the shoots from my blackberry plants -- just the tips so they won't grow. My blackberries are one of my cash-crops, so the rabbits and I are having "discussions". They even eat willows, the little rascals.

I feed all the critters well inside the woods-line on their own trails. I use "food" and "safe" to reinforce one another, y'know? If they step outside the woods, then the dogs who have control of "their" side are free to chase the smaller things. Bunnies are absolutely fair game for chasing (we've got MILLIONS of them), but only in the daytime. I don't let them chase anything at night. The worst possible thing to chase would be one of those funny "kitties" with the stripe down their backs.

I could guarantee they'd never, ever, ever want to chase one of those again. But I really don't feel like spending a night gagging over a dog in a shower stall with repeated dousings of SkunkOff either. Ugh. I grew up in the country. I've got better sense than even to frighten one.

This time of year, I do hope that no buck decides to stand his ground against a foolish puppy, either. They're used to dogs around here and not at all afraid of them. There are plenty of scuffs in the ground and deer do congregate thickly just inside the woodsline. (I'd never heard does vocalize before, nor bucks calling. I'd heard elk aplenty growing up, but not deer. Should've seen my hair stand up the first time LOL)

Another reason to keep deer and dogs separate is the middle one is a roller and fresh buck-pee is too tempting. Yuuuuuuck.

I've got that poly-cord type electric fence around the yard to keep the girls in. Deer go where they want to (a 4' high fence is no barrier) and it's also no barrier to smaller things. I try to keep my kids corralled without disturbing the critters too much... they were there first, but I am paying the mortgage :)

[uppityperson]

12. Dogs and deer. And moose.

I spent a couple winters interior AK, could cross country ski out my door which was great. So I'm out in the woods with a couple small terriers I'm dogsitting. They go barking ahead to the moose. I yell at the dogs who of course can't hear me because OMG! A MOOSE!!!11 So I take a couple ski strides towards them, the moose goes "STOMP" at one (missed it) and looks up at me.

2 seconds later I am skiing away, looking back over my shoulder and getting ready to dodge if need be. 3 seconds later the dogs realize I am leaving and they are harassing something with feet bigger than they would ever hope to be, and run after me. Moose stays behind.

I now have a big doofus dog who is soooooooooo happy to wake up every day and discover he is STILL a dog and will get to eat dog food, and chase deer, and keep the cats from fighting.

[LWolf]

15. On feeding deer:

This an article from my local paper today:

<snip>

Ore. biologists propose fines for deer feeders

MEDFORD, Ore. (AP) -- It seems some Jacksonville residents have come to love the town's black-tailed deer to death.

The deer, which roam the streets freely, are feeding on piles of corn left by well-meaning animal lovers, and some of the creatures have dropped lifeless on neighborhood lawns.

Steve Niemela, an Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife biologist, said the deer are dying because they cannot digest the high-carbohydrate feed.

"We're constantly getting a steady stream of sick and injured wildlife," he said.

Niemela and other state wildlife biologists are planning to ask Jacksonville leaders to ban feeding deer within city limits, and those who break the law would have to pay a fine.

But Mayor-elect Bruce Garrett said he is leery about adding such a restriction within city limits without evidence of a corn-cause epidemic.

He also said biologists' effort to educate the public on the dangers of feeding deer could backfire. Jacksonville residents who despise the deer could use corn as a weapon, he said.

"You'd probably get people who realize, if it would get rid of the deer, they'd start feeding them," Garrett said.

Meanwhile, a similar ordinance was passed earlier this month in Philomath.

Deers that eat corn can suffer from intense diarrhea and secondary infections that lead to internal hemorrhaging, kidney failure, dehydration and death, Niemela said.

The rest of the article:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OR_FEEDING_DEER_OROL-?SITE=ORBEN&SECTION=STATE&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[HillWilliam]

16. I've often wondered about

those piles of corn the hunters put out. Dry corn is subject to mold and other infective stuff. It's not terribly digestible by anything moving, truth be told. I personally don't eat much corn or corn products (save for the occasional cake of cornbread -- I AM suthren, aftah awl!) Corn gets nasty fast; it's hard to store, draws bugs and when it's put out draws too many undesirable critters. Don't get me started on HFCS.

I haven't thrown out the dog food personally. That, my co-worker's wife has done, but only very sparingly. Her foxes usually get most of it, but occasionally the deer will help themselves to it. Now, I have thrown out the cull vegetables from my garden on the game trails and that deal seems to have worked to keep critters from raiding my garden. I figured if I made it easy for them to get goodies in places where they felt safe, they wouldn't feel the need to wander closer to the house searching for them. My yard was already 2 acres when I got here and I haven't taken anything from them, leaving them a little better than 6 acres still wild. (My garden was 65'x65' this past summer and this week I'll be tilling-in and expanding it to about 80x80.)

Now, if I can keep the bunnies out of my blackberries in as peaceful a manner, I'll be a happy man.

Oh, since I last posted, the coyotes have gotten closer. I'm not happy with that, but I'm nowhere near panic. Just vigilant.

PS: I've managed to get my old handle back. I've already written Skinner to square away my Rev account.

[LWolf]

14. I had a young buck hanging out in a front pasture yesterday.

Mid day.

My dog desperately wanted to chase him out, but I shut the pasture gate to prevent that (no one is in that pasture right now.) Deer, horned or not, can be dangerous to dogs that chase.

He hung out for an hour or so before sauntering over to hop the fence. It's a 5.5 foot fence, and he went over it from a standstill; one leap. ;)

I don't feed the deer. At least, not on purpose, lol.

[HillWilliam]

17. Oh, absolutely not

My dogs are herding dogs. Y'know: "Moving, mine!" Deer don't want to be rounded up. When I hear them or spot them in the woods, or hear the furkids busting to get out, that's when they're most decidedly not going. That's both out of respect for the deer's own "kingdom" and my furkids' safety. No matter how well-trained a dog may be (and these are constantly in training), they'll always be a dog. Some things, y'just know and decide to get along with.

[Tumbulu]

8. I agree with all the other posters above.

I have had a fox on my farm and it was very very shy, but did hang out with the sheep and their guard llama. It would grab ground squirrels from their cover and the sheep and llama were quite comfortable with it. But it was terrified of my dogs.

I do get packs of coyotes coming around and I get them to go away by shining a very bright flashlight at them. So far, this has worked and I have been using this method successfully for 4 years now. My neighbor used this technique to scare a mountain lion away. A bright light is very powerful and of course it will not frighten your dogs.

Good luck and enjoy your new life.

[RedLetterRev]

13. There's the ticket!

I've got a bigole two-way rechargeable spotlight (spot/LED) that I use to find dogs that have slipped the electric fence when bunnies are just TOO tempting. I got it at Tractor Supply, but Northern Tool has one nearly identical. I like this one because it also has a hand-crank so you can charge it up enough to run the LEDs for a good long while with only a few minutes' effort. Where I live, we get a couple of good ice-storms every winter and even in between the power can be iffy. I've seen plenty of pairs of eyes glowing back just inside the woods-line.

I usually carry that with me anyway. Never thought of it as a deterrent, since most of the small critters and deer tend to freeze or stare back. I try not to bother them with it (I figure that's not fair to them) -- just gather my missing dog or two from whatever corner of the yard they're investigating and get them back inside where they belong.

When I lived in the western part of the state, a bobcat hopped over the fence in the back of the yard in broad daylight, strolled across the yard like the kingly lion he was, hopped over the fence at the front and kept going. Only saw him the once, but it was a sight. Handsome fella, but I'm glad all the dogs were in. He could have had my elderdog for a snack. She has since crossed the Rainbow Bridge, but on life, she was 20 pounds of badass, and my bestest friend. She would so have loved this place I'm in now.

[plantwomyn]

18. Motion deterctor sprinklers

You can set them up on a perimeter and "teach" the fox, and other critters, that if they go tis way they get wet. They will set a new path away from the surprise hosing. Just turn if off b4 your pups go out. One brand is Scarecrow.

[wartrace]

19. Build a fence for your dogs, that is the best way to keep them safe.

I have six dogs, I used to let them run. I have no nearby neighbors and am surrounded by hay fields & woods that adjoin my small place (15 acres). The problem I had with letting them run is coyotes. My guys are all slightly larger than beagles. Coyotes are about the size of a German Shepard dog. I was concerned that if one of my guys were separated from the others he/she would be killed. The BEST thing I did all year is put up a fence in the acre around my house. There is NO DOUBT in my mind my dogs will be safe. I can let one out and keep the other five in if that's what they want. I have no worries about them going after another skunk. I have no worries about the old guy wandering off to die alone where I won't be able to find his body. I don't have to worry about them wandering up to the road. There is NO downside to a good fence.

[Hopfrog]

20. Ditch yer city gun

A pistol? A pistol?

First of all, I don't even know anyone who says pistol. If you were gonna live in the city, you need to get a glock or whatever and say glock. If you're living in the country, get yourself a real gun, and ignore the fox unless it is (A) rabid or (B) you have chickens.

[newfie11]

21. Having lived in the country my whole life

the only problem I have ever had with wildlife and dogs is raccoons and rabies. When we lived in Virginia there was a hugh rabies problem with raccoons. Over the course of a month my dogs killed 4 raccoons in the yard. All were tested and all were rabid. This was back in the 70's, we lived in a very rural area. The state vet asked if our dogs were vaccinated, they were, so each time they killed a coon that was rabid they had to get another rabies vaccination. For a while it was a rabies vaccination every week. They were never quarantined. The 5th one they killed I burned it.

Never had a problem with foxes and the dogs. Foxes are cowards unless they are rabid.

We have had them get into porcupines. Used the pliers to pull out quills but once had to take them to the vet because the porky quills were down in the throat. They never learned! That was in Northern Michigan (again very rural)

In the SD Black Hills we had elk. LOTS of them. I counted a herd of 80 crossing our pasture. Never has a problem with the dogs or them. Except they kept taking out our fences. Fixed that using high tinsel wire.

Had one lab that brought home baby deer. Totally unharmed, not a mark on it. We gave it to a children's animal park. This was after we left it out in the pasture for several hours hoping mom would come back for it.

Had coyotes everywhere but because our dogs have always been large size we never had problems with them.

Had bobcats and Mt Lions. No problem with the bobcats (except missing barn cats but could have been coyotes also) and the one time I heard a mt lion screech near the house, all 3 dogs (at that time Labs) took off in the direction of the sound. I guess the lion took off as all dogs came back fine. For the 15 years we lived there I saw lots of tracks but never saw a mt lion.

Here in Nebraska we have also bobcats, coyotes, and Mt lions.

One more thing is if you have a small dog beware the eagles. We have 3 Newfoundland dogs and 1 Pomeranian. We have several bald eagles around here and the Pom would be considered a wonderful snack.

[Bigmack]

22. I like electric fence....

Put it on the perimeter, and tie some bacon on it. Turn it off when you let the dogs out and keep them away from the bacon.

Bears are about the only critters who will stay and fight an electric fence.