Proposal to create a separate DU Group for Hunters and Gun Enthusiasts.

[Skinner]

Some people have suggested creating a new DU Group for Hunters and Gun Enthusiasts, so they are not required to share a space with people in the Outdoor Life Group who disapprove of their recreational choices. I am happy to set it up if there is interest.

Please let me know what you think.

Skinner
DU Admin

[OffWithTheirHeads]

1. Please!Please Pretty please!

Contrary to popular belief, if I get any more left I'll fall over and I love my guns. I support the N.R.A. AND the A.C.L.U.. There are many DU members who are incredibly knowledgeable about fire arms and allowing them to share that knowledge with others, especially people who don't currently own guns but are considering it is invaluable. Unfortunately, these posts invariably attract the anti gun few with their rants. Discussing guns is almost as bad as saying "Ralph Nader" to Carlos. Please give us our own space!

[benEzra]

2. Sounds like a good idea to me. (n/t)

[Bonhomme Richard]

3. Love the idea

[qdemn7]

4. Yes, thank you very much!

I vote YES!

[Paladin]

5. Let's Do It, Skinner

And thank you for your constructive response to this situation.

I personally think it's a shame that hunting has to be taken out of the Outdoor Life Group site. However, I recognize the fact that our resident gun activists can't seem to help themselves---on any forum where guns are involved, they are bound to encroach and impose their own narrow and decidedly non-outdoor preferences in terms of guns and politics. Better just to corral them in a couple of gun sites and keep as much of DU free from their influence as possible.

[pipoman]

6. Good Idea

While there are forums out there for gun enthusiasts which aren't supposed to be political, most end up being right wing blogs. I would like to see a forum on DU for defensive Q&A, beginner advise, gun enthusiasts and firearms hunters to discuss firearms without having to read anti gun propaganda or be called freepers for believing in keeping defensive firearms. Thanks

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. And then we wouldn't have to listen to snarky insults from

folks whose business card reads "Have gun, will travel". How do you put obnoxious people on ignore again?

[Paladin]

10. A Few Comments

1. First of all, thank you for demonstrating the corrosive effect of a gun activist in the Outdoor Life Group. Always nice to have an adversary prove the point you've been trying to make.

2. As a matter of fact, my business cards do not have "Have Gun, Will Travel" on them. And if you're going to represent yourself as a far leftwinger who supports the NRA, you can Goddamned well live with someone who favors vigorous gun control measures and goes by the name Paladin, here at DU. (Google "NRA Comic Book" and take a good hard look at what your precious NRA really thinks of leftwingers.)

3. Feel free to put me on ignore; just be aware of the fact that I think using the ignore function is an utterly cowardly, chickenshit thing to do. I don't have anybody on ignore, and I've dealt with the dregs of the gun culture here at DU over the years: the mouth-breather who delivered vicious and insulting remarks to me and my daughter; the wet-brain who made a "joke" about my school friend's mother, who was killed by Charles Whitman in the U.T. Tower back in 1966; another humor-challenged cretin, who claimed that the drop-off in crime in New York City was due to the hundreds of NYC cops who died on 9/11; the knuckle-dragger who said that Kitty Genovese was primarily responsible for her own murder, because she wasn't packing a gun when she was attacked and slaughtered; and God help us, the sub-human who admitted to, and then tried to defend, his allowing his infant daughter to play with a loaded pistol.

4. While I don't use the ignore function, I have no problems using the alert button. And if any gun militants come around again, polluting the Outdoor Life Group site, I will take immense pleasure in alerting the admistrators.....

[OffWithTheirHeads]

11. Oh my, aren't we touchy. Thing is, I've seen the likes of you show

up on DU since the beginning, and frankly, I don't give a fuck what you think. Whiny little crybaby.

[Paladin]

19. Thank You For Your Contributions To This Thread

Rest assured that your comments are valuable in ways that you never, ever intended them to be.

[qdemn7]

13. Utterly Cowardly?

Really?

This comes from a person unwilling (afraid?) to post their:

Gender
City
State
Country
Hobbies

AND chooses not to receive PMs.

Whereas tmfun, myself and plenty of other "gun militants" post these items.

It's obvious who the coward is here.

[Paladin]

20. See My Post 19.

[feminazi]

8. sounds good to me

*

[appal_jack]

9. good idea! (eom)

[Major Hogwash]

12. Well, okay, I guess.

I don't post very often in the Outdoor Life Group, mainly because I'm outdoors too often to write about it, heh heh.

But, I agree with Paladin that if it helps to keep the peace and lowers the blood pressure of some DU members, then I think there is a reason for it to be created.

Nevertheless, there are dozens and dozens of gun forums out there already that allow for the discussion of hunting. So, I would be wary of those who would want to talk so much in that forum.

[Redneck Socialist]

14. Why would you be wary of those who want to talk about hunting and guns at DU?

There are dozens of book, photography, computer, animal rights, music, weather (and so on and so on) forums out there on the internets, yet DU has groups for all those topics and more. Is there a fifth column lurking in the crafts group we should be wary of?

[Major Hogwash]

23. Because.

It isn't necessary.

I probably hunt more than the next 3 posters at this forum who will say they also hunt, yet I don't talk about it because I'm too busy doing it.

All of the other examples you gave for those other types of forums can be done from the comfort of their chair at home.

Hunting requires one to get off of their ass and actually go outdoors.

[Redneck Socialist]

24. None of the groups are 'necessary,' but members have requested them.

I'm not sure why you seem to feel that a hunting/guns group is less necessary than a crafts group, or why posters in such a group warrant wariness.

[pipoman]

25. Dod Gamn you RS don't you know by now

that the major has more guns, shoots more rounds, kills more living things (human or not), and knows better than anyone on earth all things relating to anything...If he says it is unnecessary then by god it's unnecessary..nuf' said!





"yet I don't talk about it because I'm too busy doing it."

This shit is classic...roflmao

[bearfan454]

15. I would like to see it.

We could post things that non-hunters might find offensive.

[SteveM]

16. I do not support the new "Hunters and Gun Enthusiast" group...

The whole notion of "outdoors" has been culturally split apart by gun-banners and animal-rights advocates when all sides should know that the bulk of spending to support parks, natural areas, refuges, forests, etc., comes from hunters and fishers. And that split is highly damaging to progressive hopes of regaining voters who once sided with Democrats when the party was more sympathetic to "outdoors" funding and (until the 60s) made little effort to restrict firearms usage.

This bifurcation only formalizes, enables and rewards a deep-seated intolerance of hunting and shooting sports among some so-called lefties. What we need is a return to the outdoors, ALL of the outdoors.

[Redneck Socialist]

17. Thank you Steve

You summed up my feelings pretty well. The split between the environmental community and the hunting/fishing community is detrimental to building a coalition that would be nigh unstoppable when it comes to advancing environmental issues.

That being said, I'm not sure why posts about 'gun oil' end up in this forum. (sorry benEzra)

[benEzra]

22. Yeah, I know...I think the primary driver for a new forum is just that.

Not so much that hunting doesn't fit under Outdoor Life, but that the other, more common shooting sports and general gun discussion aren't a good fit in OL but aren't allowed in Guns, which is primarily a political/legal forum.

[old mark]

46. I agree with you completely I'd vote NO

...One more point.there has for decades been a Federal Excise tax on firearms and shooting equipment and hunting licenses much of which goes to purchase land for public use not limited to hunting. We paid for the anti's woods.
Put up with it.

mark

[Paladin]

47. Oh, Great

You're spouting the exact sort of ugly, devisive, us vs. them political line that we've tried so hard to keep out of the Outdoor Life Group. Take a look back on some of the threads here---this battle has already been fought and settled. Restrict yourself to outdoor topics---minus the ideological cant---or go somewhere else....

[old mark]

49. delete post

[old mark]

50. OK, let's have a poll

I'll change my vote to YES.

[Paladin]

51. I've Given Another Shout-Out To The Moderators.....

....calling for the new group to be set up immediately. It would eliminate the pointless, distracting friction here in Outdoor Life, and a Hunting/Gun Enthusiasts Group would probably get more traffic than any three other groups combined. I can't figure out why it hasn't been set up before now; it's been months since the issue arose. Hell, they should have established it after seeing BenEzra and I actually agree on it in this thread.

Your vote change is genuinely appreciated.....

[SteveM]

18. Thanks, Skinner, for your efforts. As for "hunters and gun enthusiasts...

not required to share a space with people in the Outdoor Life Group who disapprove of their recreational choices": I have no problem being "required" to share space with these people. Evidently, the problem is with "people in the Outdoor Life Group who disapprove" sharing the space with hunters and sport shooters. If I am wrong, please indicate how many messages you have received from hunters and shooters who complain about those who don't like these "recreational choices." Conversely, indicate how many messages you have received from those who DON'T like hunting and shooting sports, requesting a change in group status. Thanks.

[Paladin]

21. Including Hunting In The Outdoor Life Group Suits Me Fine

I just don't think it's feasible, given the current make-up of the gun activist contingent here at DU. No matter what good intentions and understandings and guidelines might initially be established, there would be ongoing, aggressive efforts to turn the Outdoor Life Group into another Gun Dungeon. We've have recent evidence of that, and it's just unacceptable. Setting up the additional guns and hunting site is the best solution. My compliments once again to Skinner and the other administrators for working to settle this matter.

[krispos42]

26. Perhaps...

Hunting discussions should be in "Outdoor Life Group" (with a courtesty warning of graphic images, if required), and a non-defensive-firearms group called "Shooting & Firearms Group".

In this fashion, a person could ask for advice on a hunting rifle in "S&FG", then discuss the hunt he or she went on in "OLG".

S&FG could also be the place to ask about old guns, ammunition questions, sights and scopes, troubleshooting firearms, etc.

This replaces my previous post in your thread in the Gungeon. I think Steve M and benEzra have a point in that most gun owners don't hunt with them, so tying guns with politically-correct "sporting" uses belittles somewhat the other, legitimate, reasons of firearm ownership.

[SlowDownFast]

28. See below: post #27. n/t

[SlowDownFast]

27. Looks like Skinner's already taken some action.

Hence:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x151652

IMO, that doesn't quite deal with shooting in itself as sport, nevermind hunting.

I'm conflicted - on one hand it'd be nice to have a Hunting/Shooting Group in itself; on the other, I also tend to agree with above posters that insofar as hunting is concerned, maybe it SHOULD be kept with Outdoor Life, just as discussion of fishing should remain: they ARE outdoor activities after all, and no one can deny they play an integral part of environmental stewardship/conservation.

So, logically, that leaves "shooting/guns",in and of itself, as recreation/sport/hobby, done both indoors and outdoors. Where is the proper place to discuss the technical aspects of shooting and firearms?

Is it here in OL or is it in the Guns Forum, where discussion of firearms self-defense is now allowed?

I think I like you're idea above, Krispos, about hunting discussions still remaining in OL, but discussions of technical aspects of hunting firearms in ANOTHER GROUP: "Shooting & Firearms".

The only question I have of your suggestion would be why would it be limited to 'non-defensive'?

[Paladin]

29. It's Tough To Sort Out, I'll Grant You That.

I think Skinner has made a good initial arrangement, one that might need a bit of fine-tuning in the future. I think "Shooting/Guns" is the proper place for technical discussions which are so popular. And I believe self defense matters should be in the existing Guns forum, because all too often there will be a divisive, political element to such discussions, a good fit for the Guns section. That leaves hunting weapons and activities in Outdoor Life, where they should be; we'll trust our hunters to word their posts in a tasteful manner.

[benEzra]

31. I agree with Paladin 100%...

I think "Shooting/Guns" is the proper place for technical discussions which are so popular. And I believe self defense matters should be in the existing Guns forum, because all too often there will be a divisive, political element to such discussions, a good fit for the Guns section. That leaves hunting weapons and activities in Outdoor Life, where they should be; we'll trust our hunters to word their posts in a tasteful manner.

I agree 100% with this arrangement.

[Paladin]

34. Godalmighty, Ben.

I'm more pleased than you might imagine that we agree on something. Puts me in mind of that famous WWI ceasefire between the Allied and German forces, where there was a break in the battle to sing Christmas carols together.

Keep your powder dry and have a good holiday season.

[benEzra]

36. LOL! You too--best wishes and happy holidays. (n/t)

[Deep13]

30. You could call it "shooting sports."

It could include hunting, target shooting including indoor pistol shooting and archery.

[benEzra]

32. So, what's the current status? (n/t)

[SlowDownFast]

35. We need a poll thread so we have hard numbers.

Maybe two of them - one in OL and one in Guns and add 'em up.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

33. The new group sounds good

Hunting and most target shooting are outdoor activities, so there's some logic to bundling it in with "outdoor life". But bicycling and birding are also outdoor activities and are separate groups.

It makes sense to have a separate group for shooting, hunting, gun tech, etc.

[shireen]

37. i'm interested

i'm starting an intro class next week, and it would be interesting to connect with other gun users.

[Hellenic_Pagan]

38. Pleeeeeeeezzz!

Im new to this website, but already ive noticed that there are flamewars between gun supporters and gun haters.

I would like to post my opinions without having to defend my rights from ppl saying im essentially evil or dont have rights, and i think a group devoted to that would be good. It would also be necessarry for there to be SERIOUS moderators in the group, who delete posts from trolls and ppl who come into flame ppl who like to hunt or collect guns or just support 2nd ammednment rights.

I support a guns group!

H_P

[Paladin]

39. I Second Your Motion

I think a new guns group is needed, and I think you need to get into it immediately. Let me repeat that: immediately. Use the existing Guns forum in the interim.....

[OffWithTheirHeads]

40. What I really don't understand is why, if you don't like guns or

hunting, you can't just stay the fuck out of those threads. No one is forcing you to open a thread titled, say, "Need advice on buying a gun" or whatever. All you have to do is move along. Find something that appeals to you and leave us alone but Nooooooooooooo, just like the fundies, some folks just have to force their beliefs down every body els,es throat.
Frankly, much as I would like to have a place to talk guns with other gun people, I think the fundy anti's will be drawn like moths to a flame (war)and will still come around stomping their feet and knashing their teeth and generally trying to make everyone else as miserable as they are, but hey, I'm willing to try, so what's it gonna be Skinner?

[ManiacJoe]

41. Exactly. Plus,

this forum gets so little traffic, why split it even further? And the "ignore thread" button works well.

However, someone in authority needs to make a decision and then lock this thread....

[OffWithTheirHeads]

42. Yeah, I keep asking Pelosi to do the same thing but

no luck.

[Iktomiwicasa]

43. yes

a seperate group would be a good thing

[WildEyedLiberal]

44. Sign me up! nt

[Blue Fire]

45. DO IT!

My smokepole is quivering at the very idea!

[MercutioATC]

48. Yes!!!

Pleeeeeeease

[Paladin]

52. Self-Deleted (n/t)

[Kolesar]

53. I have a sad observation that DU people are "people in chairs"

I cite that the bicycling group does not get much traffic. I have met DUers at meetups and DUer's hobbies really are not about playing in the outdoors or nature watching. The birding group fills up the first page in all of nine months. It even takes this group of "target shooters" 19 months to fill up the first page.

Split the groups! I would expect that "sportsmen and women" will maintain their level of activity and that the set of those outside of target shooting, hunting, and fishing community will have a modest increase in participation.

[bearfan454]

54. I would like to see everyone's hunting pics

without other people being offended.

[tburnsten]

55. I would like a group specifically for firearms

That business higher up on the thread that Paladin started is a perfect example of why a separate forum for guns as a recreation is a fantastic idea.

[Paladin]

56. Thank You For Your Enthusiastic Support Of My Position

Like you, I vigorously support the creation of a recreational guns site for people such as yourself. Actually, I don't know why it hasn't been set up yet.

Again, many thanks for your kind support....

[tburnsten]

57. Uncivil discussion isn't something most of us look for

And having a place where people's individual politics and views on firearms in general, however informed or uninformed, does not taint the threads being posted, would be a great success for all of us.

[Paladin]

58. Hope You Enjoy The New Group---Whenever It Starts (n/t)

[Wcross]

59. I'm in.

I own firearms and enjoy discussing them.