AK-47 info needed

[derby378]

OK, let me try this again...

I know a lot of folks swear on AR-15s, but they're still a bit expensive, and I just wanted a little info on an AK-47 and/or its variants, if I ever chose to buy one:

* I hear AK's are very reliable and rugged. Are there any models that stand out in particular? Any models to avoid?

* Are there any models or variants that are especially accurate? Are there ways to improve the accuracy of a particular AK model? It doesn't have to be a sharpshooter weapon, but no terror guns, please.

* I'm large, so a heavier model that fires 7.62mm ammo shouldn't be a problem with me. But are lighter-ammo models better overall?

* Would prefer a model that is easy to maintain and configure. Would like to swap out butt stock, etc. if needed.

* Semi-auto only. Don't have enough time, energy, or money to pursue full-auto.

If anyone's asking, I'm just curious. Chances are my wife won't let me own anyting more technologically advanced than a musket, but I want to avoid making some of the mistakes I made last time I bought a gun. I want to be an educated gun owner, not an impulsive one.

Thanks to those who already provided advice, pro and con.

[happyslug]

1. Why do you want a AK-47?

If it just for shooting, fine, for self protections, also fine, if you want to be able to join a Militia also fine, but for anyone to give you any advice these questions have to be answered.

Now some general Comments, the best overall infantry weapon ever made was the Model 1898 Mauser bolt Action rifle. It could shoot 14 rounds a minute, if could hit man size targets are 1000 yards (area size targets at 3000 yards), penetrate most airplane armor, even take out a tank if the shooter is careful where he shoots. In open terrain the bolt action has superior range over any Assault Rifle or sub-machine gun, the Bolt action has superior maneuverability over any machine gun (Through the Machine gun has superior long range effective fire than a bolt action rifle, and the Assault rife has superior firepower through not to the range of the Bolt Action).

Most Armies had a hard time replacing their Bolt action Rifles for the above advantages (Plus that any Bolt Action Rifle is superior in reliability over any assault Rifle, Sub-machine gun or Machine gun). When the Bolt action was replaced it was do to the fact that the "Combat Environment" had changed, the infantry squad needed more fire power to overcome the Machine gun's firepower. It was to overcome the Machine gun that the Bolt action rifle was replaced by the Assault Rifle. In a Combat environment without the Machine Gun, the bolt action rifle is still the best weapon to have (Such combat environments are rare today so all modern armies use assault rifles instead of bolt action rifles).

Now if I was heading for the sticks to hide out the weapon I would want would be a Mauser Bolt Action Rifle (In 30-06 if Possible). Being by myself I will lose any firefight I get into so the lack of Firepower is of small consequence to me. The bolt action superior reliability, range and impact are want I would need to survive and avoid un-friendlies.

Now if I was member of a GROUP i.e. an infantry Squad I would prefer a AK-47 or AR-15 depending on what the other member of the group has. A military unit not only has to be armed with decent assault weapons but with the same weapon to minimized re-supply problems. Thus if the group you are with have AR-15s get a AR-15. If the Group you are with have AKs, get a AK in the same caliber as the rest of your group.

Remember it is military UNITS that win battles NOT a bunch of Individuals who showed up armed. In the Battle of Blair Mountain during the West Virginia Coal War of 1921 you had 20,000 people shooting at each other but no units. The comment at the time was that had one company of 100 men had shown up on either side they would have won the battle for that side. Since neither side has such a unit all that happen was a constant shotting by both sides and than disbursed when the Regular Army showed up to break up the fight.

Thus my point if you are worried about some future fight with Bush and his Fellow Corporate Republicans you have to Join some sort of Military unit (or be willing to form such a military unit). Technically such units are Illegal in most states, but you can get around this by training WITHOUT WEAPONS (it can be done and better done with paint ball or laser tags sets). Such training will get you sue to working as a member of YOUR TEAM. After your laser tag training session you can discuss weapons and agree on want weapons everyone in the proposed unit will have. Maybe even gang shares on higher Echelon weapons (i.e. Machine Guns, Anti-Tank Weapons and Mortars). But before I would buy anything like those I would first form up into a unit and standardize on a weapon AND Equipment i.e. web gear, helmet, uniforms, food, etc.

Remember Napoleon's saying "An Army Travels on its Stomach". If you and your family do not have adequate food, water and shelter you can NOT fight, thus making sure you and your family has food, water and Shelter for a one year period is more important than even having a weapon.

After Food, water and Shelter, you have to think in terms of Transport (Gasoline will be in shortage either through peak oil OR deliberate policy to deny fuel to rebel held areas). Thus you should have a good bike and a bike trailer (i.e. a trailer to haul behind the bike). I would put both of these items higher than any weapon.

After Transport I would put basic camping gear, tent, uniforms, knife, saw, Axe, shovel, pick, canteens, rain gear etc, without which you can not operate as a member of a unit (and thus have higher priority than getting a weapon).

It is only after I have food for a year, access to water, shelter (both a base AND a tent in case the base gets destroyed), a bike for transport, a Bike Trailer to transport yourself and what you need to survive and basic camping/pioneer equipment before you can decide what weapon to have. Furthermore you need all of the above for your spouse and children before you decide on a weapon. Also do not forget medicine, razors, fingernail cutters, chap-sticks, and other small items you will need (and miss if you do not have them) if access is denied by the Government.

Thus if you are planning to "fight" the Government you will need the above more than you will need a weapon. Get the above FIRST and than once you have the above decide what weapon you want to carry.

[derby378]

2. Uh, dude...

I'm only asking about the gun, not how to wage a guerilla campaign against the Bush/Cheney junta. While I appreciate your wanting to share, I'm just trying to get some basic info about the AK-47 and its variants. I posted a similar thread in the Gun Rights/Gun Control thread but soon learned that was a no-no. Hence, I reposted my questions here.

[solinvictus]

3. Kalashnikov variants...

I've owned nothing but Chinese (Norinco) and have found them to be flawlessly reliable under any conditions. My last one was the NHM-91, a civilian version of the RPK squad weapon. It was accurate to 100 meters with American production ammunition and a bipod.

I've heard mixed reviews of the Romanian clones that abound. The early ones, as I understand it, were poorly machined and had canted sights as a common flaw. The advantage to the Romanian clone is that it can be purchased in 7.62X39 , 5.45X39, and 5.56 NATO. I've read that the 5.56 Romanian is a great buy as long as you use only German made Weiger steel magazines.

Here's a link to a site that covers the variants:
http://www.ak-47.net/

[Deep13]

4. Considering the same matter myself.

I am certainly no expert, but this is what I have learned so far.

AR-15s are pricey, highly accurate and take lightweight 0.223 Rem ammunition and its higher-powered NATO counterpart. I forgot what the metric name is, but the 0.223 NATO is the most prolific rifle cartridge in the Western world. It is light in weight and can be found pretty cheap. Some believe it is underpowered, that that seems to be mostly in very short barreled models. Spare parts and accessories are ubiquitous.

AK-47s and their successors (i.e. AK-74) are absolutely reliable, if not to say indestructable. They can be field stripped without tools. Plus they are cheap to buy and own. 7.62mm Soviet is the most common rifle ammunition on earth and can be found here pretty cheaply. It is not as accurate as 0.223, but it is not designed to be. Still, expect decent accuracy to about 100 yards. At close to medium range, the AK packs more stopping power than an AR, but the ammunition is heavier. Look for models with chrome-lined barrels which can handle corrosive, communist rounds. Spare parts are plentiful, not that you will ever need them. Robinson Armaments imports especially good models chambered in 7.62 Soviet, 0.223 and 0.308. Otherwise, Century imports many run of the mill models.

Also consider the SKS, a precurser of the Automat Kalishnakov. Eastern European models are supposed to be especially reliable and more accurate than Chinese clones. They shoot 7.62 ammunition.

Thirty caliber NATO models like the Springfield M-1A are more accurate than AKs or ARs and pack more punch than 0.223 models. Unfortunately, the bullets run about $0.50 each, though 0.308 can sometimes be found surplus. Most large caliber NATO rifles take 0.308 Win. In my mind, 0.30-06 is loosing popularity and for practical purposes and is approaching obsolesence. I am unaware of any current production military rifle that uses it. The reason 0.223, 0.308 and 7.62 are so available is because military rifles use them. Frankly, the cost of the ammunition has ruled out the western 30 calibers for me.

[solinvictus]

5. .308 (7.62 NATO)

It can be found surplus, usually it's going to be Australian, Indian, Portugese, or Indonesian manufacture. I've read the Indian ammo is the worst, I'd guess due to the temperature variations and poor storage conditions. I've seen some Australian 7.62 NATO in vacuum sealed battle packs for reasonable prices lately. I'm thinking hard of a CETME myself since I live in the city. 7.62 NATO will go right through a brick or concrete block.

[Endangered Specie]

7. Western .30 caliber is expensive...

try looking into Eastern 30 caliber (7.62x54R), older than the 30.06, ballisticly very similiar, Surplus ammo can be had for as little as 5 cents a round, commercial ammo can be had for $5-7 a box of 20 and up.

Hard to beat :)

[Endangered Specie]

6. Im no AK expert but I can give general answeers:

- First off, the recoil of a 7.62x39 shouldnt be of much concern even if you were a smaller framed person. The other calibre ak's come in are 5.45x39, but I think its more expensive.
- Accuracy, as I understand it its pretty much impossible to get match quality accuracy out of an AK, solely because of its design with very large tolerances and 'looseness'. Thats the trade off for their legendary reliability. They were designed to hit a human sized target at around 400 yards max. If you need more accuracy, you need another gun.
- Pretty much all of these are gonna be easy to maintain, again, they were designed for a poorly trained, uneducated, conscript army.
- Golden rule: you get what you pay for, spend the extra 50 bucks and get the more expensive one, Id expect one would run you around $300-$400.


Also consider an SKS, same ammo, weighs a little more (even less recoil), marginally more accurate, just as reliable if you know what you are doing. All kind of stocks and accessories for these too.
Yugos and Chinese SKS's are the most common, Id argue Yugos are of better quality, but there are some Chinese models made from the factory to take AK-Mags.

this ought to help, http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewforum.php?f=40 the whole site is pack full of info.

[benEzra]

8. Some answers from an "AK" owner...

Happyslug, the vast majority of us who own civilian AK lookalikes own them because they are neat, reliable, fun-to-shoot carbines that don't beat up your shoulder like a full-power rifle would. Not because we are worried about black helicopters and "the gubmint." :)

Here's mine:

* I hear AK's are very reliable and rugged. Are there any models that stand out in particular? Any models to avoid?

Anything currently being imported will be very reliable and rugged. I would avoid anything made by Hesse Arms, which had a reputation for poor quality, but those haven't been marketed for many years.

More money will buy you better fit and finish, though. Romanian rifles like mine are typically somewhat roughly finished but look the most like real AKM's; Chinese rifles are a bit smoother; and the Russian/Hungarian/Polish ones are the smoothest. For the price of a Russian/Hungarian/Polish AK lookalike, you could buy an AR-15, though.

Romanian AK lookalikes come in several flavors. Ban-era Romanian guns were mostly SAR-1's (7.62x39mm), with a few SAR-2's (5.45x39mm) and SAR-3's (5.56x45mm/.223 Remington) in there as well. After the BATFE reinterpreted 18 USC 922.r. to prohibit the importation of guns with double-column magwells, SAR importation ceased and WASR's were imported. A WASR is similar to a SAR, except it came into the country as a single-stack and the magwell was widened to spec after the rifle satisfied the 18 USC 922 parts-count rule. The way to tell the difference is to look at the sides of the receiver, just above the magwell; those oval dimples you see in the side of my rifle aren't there on a WASR.

WASR's imported after September 2004 have authentic-looking muzzles (usually with slant brakes) and gas blocks since those features are no longer restricted by the AWB:



The circled areas are the only difference between a ban-era carbine and a pre- or post-ban carbine.

* Are there any models or variants that are especially accurate? Are there ways to improve the accuracy of a particular AK model? It doesn't have to be a sharpshooter weapon, but no terror guns, please.

The more you pay, the more accuracy you will get. A Vepr (built on a thicker RPK-style receiver) will be more accurate than a Romanian gun, but at an AR-15 price. Krebs rifles (Hungarian, I think) are also very accurate, and pricey.

My rifle will shoot into about 2.5 arcminutes on a good day (1.25" at 50 yards, or 2.5" at 100), but sometimes my 100 yard groups are closer to 5", probably due to the fact that I often shoot really inexpensive ammo (Wolf or Norinco). American made ammunition, or quality European ammo like Lapua, Silver Bear, or S&B, will probably do better.

The short sight radius makes AK lookalikes challenging to shoot as well as an AR-15 (and having an old-Winchester-style leaf and blade instead of an aperture doesn't help), but it can be done. Optics help immensely, and most civvie AK lookalikes have an optics rail on the left side of the receiver for attaching scopes and such (see 1st photo for a mounted POSP 4x24).

5.45x39mm AK's have a reputation for better accuracy than the 7.62x39mm versions.

Russian-made Saiga rifles have a good reputation for accuracy and are marketed as hunting rifles, but they have a straight stock and single-stack magazine. You can swap some parts to meet the 922.r parts count rule and then put on an aftermarket stock with a separate handgrip and open up the magwell, and get a very high quality rifle that way for a bargain price. Or leave it in the straight-stocked configuration if you prefer.

If the best possible accuracy at a reasonable price is your goal, you might want to look at a Romanian SAR-2 in 5.45x39mm. You could probably find one on Gunbroker and arrange with a local FFL to do the paperwork. You'll probably have to mail order the ammo or pick it up at a gun show, but I do that with 7.62x39 anyway (much cheaper that way). You can pick up a POSP 4x24 scope for $100-$120 online.

* I'm large, so a heavier model that fires 7.62mm ammo shouldn't be a problem with me. But are lighter-ammo models better overall?

7.62x39mm is still a reduced-power cartridge, and is only about half as powerful as a full-size .30 caliber like a .30-06. So even the 7.62x39 AK lookalikes don't recoil much. The 5.45x39mm's have a reputation for better accuracy and recoil even less.

* Would prefer a model that is easy to maintain and configure. Would like to swap out butt stock, etc. if needed.

Romanian and Chinese AK lookalikes take standard stocks and such; Russian Vepr's don't, since they are built on a thicker receiver. Lots of different stocks and such here:

http://www.tapco.com
http://www.tapco.com/product_list.asp?dept=40&last=40&page=1

I will warn you that the steel underfolding stocks have a reputation for hurting like heck, not because the gun kicks much, but because any recoil at all is a pain when the stock is a skinny steel rod. I'd rather have a full-length stock myself, or fit it with an Ace adapter from Tapco and put on an AR-style adjustable-length stock.

* Semi-auto only. Don't have enough time, energy, or money to pursue full-auto.

There's quite a price difference:

Civvie non-automatic AK lookalike: $350
Genuine full-auto AK: $15,000 (plus clearance process)

If anyone's asking, I'm just curious. Chances are my wife won't let me own anyting more technologically advanced than a musket, but I want to avoid making some of the mistakes I made last time I bought a gun. I want to be an educated gun owner, not an impulsive one.

Thanks to those who already provided advice, pro and con.

Good luck, and hope this helps. If your wife doesn't like nontraditional looking guns, a Saiga is more traditional looking than a Romanian AKM lookalike, if that makes a difference. They come in 7.62x39mm as well as .308 Winchester/7.62x51 (nearly twice as powerful, for hunting). Dunno if any .223 or 5.45 Saigas were imported or not.


Saiga