Anyone else wondering why the sudden anger towards Dennis.....

[Desertrose]

I sure am. Its like the primaries all over again....

Anyone feel the same??

What a big waste of time...probably shouldn't even be bothering to post this, but I am just curious as to why the vitriol against Dennis.

Why does he seem to threaten a certain group of people so much???

I am most grateful there is a man like DK who has the courage to speak the truth.......I don't get why others can't see that....:shrug:

DR

on edit- Just want to shout out a big THANK YOU to all who those brave the hostility and try to defend & set the record straight about DK. :grouphug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. I don't get it either

:shrug:

I guess it's Bash Dennis Week.

[Desertrose]

3. Gosh Lydia, sure seems like it, doesn't it?

....makes me sad....that after everything, this is all the farther we've come.....

[XanaDUer]

2. I think the anger was there all the time

just waiting to be released. The day we start demonizing a real liberal like DK is the day I freaking go over to the Greens for good.

[Desertrose]

4. I think you may be right......

but WHY WHY WHY are they so angry at Dennis???

All t he man is doing is staying true to the Dem ideals....but I guess thats how much the Dems have changed....

I hear ya about the Greens though. I know the head of the Green Party in my state (AZ) changed his patry affiliation just long enough to vote for Dennis in the primary here.

Can you imagine what DK could accomplish if those within his own party would support him. To me says more about the party than the man....

sad what we have become....

[XanaDUer]

6. Because some people live to rage

and rage righteously. It's sort of pathetic. I do feel that some of the more reasonable people are seeing it for what it is-it has reached that point of seeming insane. (well, it reached that point a while ago, but sometimes things have to be seen at their most extreme.)

[MuseRider]

9. Because Dennis

speaks the truth and it was about Dean. When one runs as something and then gets pegged as something else then sees it is good for him so he runs as that instead of what he really is it gets very confusing. Then you have to find ways to justify why all of a sudden he is back where he started. It is OK but was the very reason I could not support Dean. It was politics. I just would rather support someone who never pretended.

It made me angry enough to spend one entire day on one single thread. At least we are not being called Republicans out loud yet.

[eridani]

5. DK is a challenge to their fluffy pink bunny view of US policy

Despite all the evidence to the contrary, they still think that US foreign policy at bottom has something to do with helping people. We just need to do the broken record thing about how conquest can't ever be good under any circumstances. I think we need to cut people slack on the issue of withdrawal timetables though. Reasonable people can disagree on what method of withdrawal will cause the least damage.

On the issue of whether something good can come out of the mess, that depends strictly on how much control the US is willing to give up. The more we give up, the better the situation will be. The breaking and entering analogy holds here, I think. If you catch someone stealing your car stereo, you damn well don't tell him to "finish the job." On the other hand, could something good come of it? Sure, if your insurance decides to pay for the whole thing and you get a newer stereo with more advanced features for the same money.

[Desertrose]

7. true, but doesn't the guy stealing the stereo have to go away

before you can replace it with a more improved version??

[eridani]

18. Yes

Thanks for extending the analogy further. I think I might write it up as a separate topic. The analogy fits in all ways.

[Mairead]

23. Having been through exactly that scenario, I'd still MUCH prefer

that it hadn't happened.

The reality is that (a) you have to eat part of the loss through your deductable and (b) you risk not getting 100% comp even ignoring the deductable. I paid $1000 deductable and still had another $200 uncompensated (things that either the original thieves or, more likely in my opinion, the towing people themselves took).

[eridani]

32. The point is how to use the analogy to lead the "pottery barn"

theory advocates our way. Assume the best outcome for the purposes of argument.

[Mairead]

33. Sorry for not being more clear

A lot of innocent people have been and will be killed in Iraq. So that's the analog of the 'uncompensated damage'. The 'pottery barn' people have to grasp that their analogy is desperately flawed: we're not talking about 'breakage' that's all in the past, impersonal, and can be fully compensated, we're talking about 'breakage' that will never stop til we're gone, that is poignant beyond measure, and that can never be compensated fully. So your analogy of the thief breaking into the car is okay, but it needs the reality that no matter how hard we try to 'pay them off', there are tens or hundreds of thousands of people who will never, ever, ever have the happy, secure lives they would have had if we had prevented BushCo's criminal rampage. Which means that the very best thing we can do is to get the hell out of there Right Now or as close to 'right now' as is humanly possible.

I hope that was less obscure.

[genius]

8. I think they know he'll be a contender for the Presidency in 08

They're trying to stop him from winning so that some Republicrat will get the nomination.

[MuseRider]

10. He has not announced though

has he? It has already been announced that he is running elsewhere. Confused me but I have not heard that yet.

[Desertrose]

11. I think the best we can do is keep the energy going and the truth strong

since Dennis has always been outspoken and whether or not her runs (I sure hope he does) it can't hurt to have things in preparation, can it??

I think we have a lot of groundwork to lay & I am not sure the best way togo about it....I know that if Dennis has theenergy & heart to run, there will be many who will be there with him...but will we be ready & have what we need to ready as well? I don't know about that part....

[MuseRider]

12. It is kind of

hard to get everything ready when we don't know. I think his support is deeper than even we know, especially now. The detractors are very loud though.

He has not let me down yet. I don't always agree but I don't expect to. He would do such good things for the entire planet.

[eridani]

19. The movement he started must go on no matter what he does

The Rainbow Coalition tied itself to Jesse Jackson's political aspirations too closely, and went down the tubes as a result. We have to go on with him or without him.

[Mairead]

38. What bothers me is the apparent assumption everywhere

that we are and should be the merest spectators of events, with neither stake in nor influence over anything that happens. The aura of dissociation and ennui is really scary.

If the biggest contribution any of us can make to a better tomorrow is to complain about some cultists at DU being mean to us, what does that say about the future?

[Padme Amidala]

53. We need to show that we are the force that will win the election of 2008

A lot of people are saying that, if Dennis doesn't get the nomination, we should encourage him to run as an independent with Ron Paul and wipe out the two party system. They would pull voters from both parties. On paper, it looks like they could win or even landslide. Most Democrats I know would vote for that combination, if Dennis is at the top of the ticket.

[Desertrose]

55. I agree completely, Padme

It is time to make sure Dennis runs....even if the Dems won't have him...I agree he would pull a lot of folks from both parties plus Indies & Greens for sure.

[Zorra]

21. You know, the last thing in the world that transnational corporations,

and their corporate sponsored republicans and DLCers want to see is a populist Democrat like DK getting any major national notoriety in a well publicized bid for the Presidency. His populist ideas might click with a very substantial number of disaffected voters, even some old school republicans, that see few major differences between the two parties, and lead to a shake-up in the status quo.

So, IMO, it is within the realm of probability that special interests would sponsor posters at DU to trash Dennis (as well as other types of disruptors) and attempt to disrupt any trend toward unity by the Progressive Movement. I'm not saying that all posters that trash DK are plants, just that there may well be a few.

It is not beyond the realm of possibility that transnational corporations, concerned about maintaining their influence in our government, would sponsor a pseudo-Progressive, (at least on the surface non-DLC), charismatic candidate to counter any real Progressive, like DK, that might run for President. It would be what I would do if I were evil, in their position, and had unlimited funds. The stakes are the very highest considering the enormous power and profit in controlling the US government.

After all, they can't have someone like DK cutting off those enormous war profits and permanently ending their control of our government.

[Mairead]

24. I think you've pegged it, Zorra.

Between the stealth oppo and the Dem cocktail-party drones whose main interest is in playing endless games of "Ain't It Awful" and "If It Weren't For Them", Dennis represents a real threat to the status quo...though less a one than you'd think from the vitriol.

[Desertrose]

26. I agree Maired ...Zorra is right on....

the money folks have too much to lose...the ones who have a tiny share of control want to keep it and the rest are...well drones is a good concept LOL

I think the greater the degree of hate & vitriol the more he has them worried.

[genius]

35. I bet you are right on that one

There are a lot of people here I am certain are not Demcrats. It's not just their attacks on Dennis. There'a a crowd that is actively encouraging us to support the idea of Democrats caving in to the Republicans on everything. There are people here who were actively backing the Real ID Act, Negroponte and Gonzales.

There is a guy in the California forum who actively went after Kevin Shelley, who recently resigned because fighting a baseless scandal (that went away after he resigned) drove him into debt. Now, Shelley has been replaced by a Republican, which seemed to meet the approval of the guy in the forum who was against Shelley.

Under the current rules, it seems to be OK to attack our leaders but not OK to defend them. Perhaps we should ask to have the rules changed to protect our leaders (like Dennis) from vicious, baseless attacks.

[Dragonfly]

36. I am in total agreement with the support

given by posters on your sub-thread re your expansive and close-to-the-epicenter-of-truth post on why the TNCorps are fearful of DK's message.

That said, how do you think they also feel about the cabinet-level Department of Peace legislation which will be re-introduced in the House a few days after the 4th anniv. of 9/11?

The Lampley/Gallagher/Bingham/Ivins (just to name a few) recent articles say what DK says, basically. I see today where the Pentagon is trying once again to get Congress to overlook the destruction of the environment which, aqccording to a Pentagon spokeswoman, is "needed to test equipment soon to be in used in Iraq."

I sense a full-scale assault on the troubled psyche of the American public 'cause "they" know "we" are on to them. This thread helps sustain my faith that "spiritual-political" allies are here in abundance to weigh in at the right time(s).

[MuseRider]

13. Aaaaand it continues.

I don't know, maybe it is a good thing to air it all out now when there is not a race officially going. Sure is interesting the double binds they put him in though.

[Zomby Woof]

14. Oh, I know why

But I don't dare say it here. :-)

[MuseRider]

15. Zomby

:hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hi:

[Desertrose]

27. Yo Zomby.....

I think we can probably read your mind on this :evilgrin:

:hi::hug:
DR

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XanaDUer]

17. Yes, I noticed that

Interesting.

[Desertrose]

25. Yeah...I also noticed...and I also noticed how

the Dr. defending wars tend to go on forever with no locking until the flames eat through the screen.....

[Zorra]

20. You beat me to it, I came to this forum just now to post the very same

thing.

[Radical Activist]

22. He criticized Dean.

You can't do that without getting a lot of hate in return. I think there are some people that feel threatened by seeing what a REAL progressive looks like as opposed to a Dr. who plays one on TV.

[genius]

30. Dean never said he was a progressive. Only his supporters think he is.

Did you ever see "The Last Temptation..." where Paul tells Jesus that he doesn't have to go back and die on the cross because they can just make it up about him? Well, that's what the Dean followers have done. They are pretending that he is some kind of great progressive, when in fact he is pro-NAFTA, pro-death penalty, anti-labor, pro-occupation, anti-environment, anti-universal health care, and was the first one to question the need for civil liberties after 9/11.

I think they believe Dean will run for President again and that his only chance involves shooting down the real progressive candidate - even if they have to do it with lies.

[XanaDUer]

31. Bwa ha ha ha!

I like that. Good one, and true!

[Strawman]

28. Not from me

I'm beginning to think that DK is the candidate I should have supported all along. If people like me who know better keep selling out to so-called "electable" candidates, how does positive meaningful change ever happen? What a crazy notion: to support the candidate whom you think is the most moral and has the best ideas. What am I thinking?

[MuseRider]

29. This is something

we have been saying all along. Thank you for coming in here and saying that. Welcome and don't go away. The more the merrier.

[Dragonfly]

34. I'm glad that you decided to post this, DR,

because those who are annoyed by the irrational rationales for going after DK in negative ways on DU are finding each other better. This contemplative period here in Missouri from 5/4-8 was instructive for me, especially re the notion of "who are true allies" within the progressive community.

I'm not in total agreement with Congressman Kucinich on every issue, but the wonderfully unvarnished populist perspectives that he presents barely exist beyond a handful of House members and Ms. Boxer. I am very concerned that Congress has been muted while * and Co. wreak havoc on Earth. Dennis Kucinich is part of the tangible antidote to the multiple ailments draining America's positive soul energy.

This thread is so important, as it gives us a solid opportunity to think of ways to work together, no matter how small or infrequent, as '05 rolls toward '06, etc.

Thanks for putting it out there.

[Desertrose]

39. Always glad to talk about DK....

and glad to see you posting, dragonfly :hi:

[Dragonfly]

40. Speaking of DK, I saw another thread

near here that suggested we begin now to work on his '08 run for prez (which, given an iota of electoral normalcy, I would start to stand up for now). However, with the unique type of candidacy he presented to the American public in '04, somehow I think that his attention is focused much more on "collaboratively checkmating" the bold and dangerous moves being made by a desperate fed admin. '08 is way off in the future; to me, even the '06 election cycle looms as an "acute hostility zone." '05 looks pretty good from this little spot on the grand spectrum.

I'm glad that he's in positon to rally decent members of Congrress who know how "bad wrong" America/Earth is being treated by * and Co.

Media Reform Conf. ends here tomorrow 'round noon. I'm gonna meet up with folks from down there for lunch and networking post-plenary. Naturally, will beat drums for DOP/DK....Peace

[Mairead]

41. His '04 candidacy was ...deformed is the best word I can think of

Too few knew who he was. Media Inc made sure that any mention of him was belittling and, if possible, included lies (such as the 'bankrupted Cleveland' one; the only media that covered him fairly was local). He got too little money. His campaign was essentially a local campaign that he stretched to the point of collapse trying to cover a nation.

And right now people who nominally support his candidacy are pretending that everything is fine and there is no need for them to do anything except post his speeches in a discussion forum and talk about how wonderful he is.

I don't understand that, myself.

I'll be 65 this year. I'm barely getting by on ss retirement, giving 50% of it just for a small apartment in a depressed town. I certainly don't have enough for medical care, and the free-care clinics are grossly overburdened and can't offer much. I'm worried about whether I'll be able to afford to repair my '98 Honda lemon this summer so it'll pass inspection (it still has fewer than 40K miles on the clock). Prices of everything have just taken what looks like a sudden 20% jump, presumably because of the oil prices. So if I'm barely getting by now, what will the future be like?

It's very clear to me that things are going steadily downhill, and that it will take focused, determined work to change anything, beginning with getting someone into power who wants to change things. It seems obvious that people who are smart enough to see that Kucinich's politics are healthy ones and he should be leading the change parade should be smart enough to see that it's not going to happen by magic. But there's some kind of disconnect in there somewhere because those smart people continue to sit around on their arses blinking in the sunlight, as dissociated from any need for action as tho they were watching a film on tv.

I don't get it, but it scares me.

[Desertrose]

42. I do know what you mean Mairead......

I know that we have to get "it" rolling ASAP....meaning the energy & momentum to get the word out & organize for Dennis' campaign...it needs to begin right away. I do agree.

I know its gonna take a lot of energy...again.

I just wish I wasn't still working so hard to get my biz to come back after putting in so much time on his campaign last year. Like you I am barely making it...killer rent ( can no longer afford to buy a home) a car that needs tires...all the usual stuff...food skyrocketing...plus trying to get my biz cranking. (Never has been the same since 9/11 and people's disposable income as you pointed out is certainly not increasing these days...sigh....)

Its not that I expect magic...I think its more I'm just tired & beat down to have extra energy for this...HOWEVER...if Dennis were to say he wants to run & needed the help....I know I (& others) would find that energy & desire & do what it takes. (Waiting for Dennis...maybe that is just a copout :shrug: )

I'm not really a political person by nature....all the logistics & games aren't my cup of tea....I just know what is fair & right & what isn't and DK is sanity in an otherwise insane world.

Do I want to change the way things are??
Hell ,yes.

Am I willing to put forth effort & energy to accomplish it?
Yes, I think am willing again.

I guess its just getting to the next step then,eh? from wanting & thinking about it to actually doing.....(seems to be where many of us get stuck, doesn't it?)

So I guess I better go look at the thread about how we can start up DK's campaign.....you guys had some really good ideas.....

Maybe it just needs someone's energy to get it started.........??

(Forgive my going around in circles in this post....)

[DemBones DemBones]

37. Speaking truth to power always causes some trouble,

doesn't it?


Dennis :yourock:

[LWolf]

43. I didn't catch it;

I've been unavailable to the world at large while I'm juggling family business. But, having seen and heard it before, it's familiar.

Dennis threatens the status quo. Not just republicans, but all entrenched political assumptions, no matter where they happen to fall on a continuum. Someone who is smart, courageous, sensible, and operates from a place of integrity is more likely to be viciously opposed, because he won't be influenced. It's fear of change or difference speaking, IMO. The same fear that leads to homophobia, racism, etc.; fear of stepping outside of a narrow vision.

Too many people are willing to hate the "other side," but are so fearful that they won't support their own who are actually willing to stand up, speak up, and act for supposed common values.

Personally, every time I check in to see what Dennis is up to, I'm reenergized. It's like breathing clean air after days of smog alerts.

:hi:

[mvd]

44. That's why I enjoy having the DK group

Many at DU like him, but I see distortions. For example, when Kucinich voted for the Iraq Liberation Act, no use of force from the US was mentioned. Also, Kucinich hasn't wavered once since becoming pro-choice - even when there are more calls for compromise. People think his flag burning vote is more important than being one of the first, and one of the only, Democrats in the House/Senate to mention PNAC.

Here's a group hug. :grouphug:

[eridani]

45. This time he voted AGAINST the flag-burning amendment

Said that there are too many threats against the Constitution now to vote on his brother's behalf.

[Strawman]

46. Becuase they don't have any good arguments against him and they resent it

They just want him to go away. They'll parrot all their little MSM talking head cliches: "He's not electable," "We can't afford single payer health insurance." "We need to be stronger on defense (aka pro-war, pro-hegemonic)."

And you know what? It's all a bunch of fucking bullshit that can't withstand any goddamn scrutiny. When you politiely (I'm normally more polite than this rant, btw) try to engage them and make counterarguments, they have the audacity to act like they're being abused. They assert that the party is ignoring them and that the liberals have all the "power."

But I think I do know why they feel so powerless: because their ideas have no fucking power and Dennis' do.

What's the saying? First they laugh at you...

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

47. You are absolutely correct!!! I say fuck 'em!

:D

[Strawman]

48. Nope. Can't do that

We need them. That's what's so frustrating. We've got to reach them and it seems impossible most of the time.

But "fuck 'em" defnintely sums up how I feel alot of the time as well. Hence the rant.
:toast:

[genius]

49. Has anyone else gotten threads locked for no reason?

I'm not talking about inflamatory threads but rather information threads that have accurate information. The moderators will say they don't see links (gen discussion isn't supposed to need links on everything) or come up with some other nonsense excuse. If a group takes a liberal approach, certain moderators demand a press clipping before a person is allowed to post anything about the group's approach in the general discussion - even if they were there and saw it. I think they want everyone to believe that the Democratic Party is more conservative than it is.

[eridani]

50. Examples? n/t

[Padme Amidala]

52. A number of people posted accurate info about positions of the CDP

A lot of Democrats in California were not happy that postings about resolutions that unanimously passed the CDP were locked for ridiculous reasons. California Democratic Executive Board members complained and got the Party to send a note to the underground verifying the resolutions. I think the problem is that some bigots didn't like the content and didn't want the party to stand for anything important. Those who support human rights were happy that the Party backed adopted these resolutions. Anyway, an agreement was finally reached allowing the information about the resolutions to be posted in the underground.

[genius]

54. The CDP is too liberal for some at the democratic underground.

Any right-winger can post anything in the general discussion wihout links and those postings stand. When something liberal is posted, it sometimes requires, not just links, but tons of independent verification. Then the right-wingers simply go on the attack anyway as if they are on a mission to destroy the liberals.

Elected Party officials had to push the issue to convince the democratic underground to allow the posting of information about the CDP positions. After the information about the CDP resolutions was allowed to be posted, the right-wingers at the dem und did their best to take the CDP apart and a number of responses in support of the party were deleted. The right-wing arguments against the CDP positions were mostly based on closed-mindedness and bigotry. It is my belief that the underground has been heavily infiltrated.

It also concerns me that there are issues which could bring down Bush that can't even be discussed here at the democratic underground.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

56. Here's a clue. I was spending one of those really rare evenings watching the

sheeple indoctrination tube and caught the "national news" on ABC and CBS.

ABC did a piece on HRC's forthcoming "health care plan" where they mentioned hers, Obama's, and Richardson's, not even Dennis' name was mentioned, let alone his actual bill. CBS did a piece on the Iowa campaign "industry" and they showed the pictures of, and named every candidate, except Dennis.

Obviously, a corporate mandate has come down that his name shall not be heard on national TV.

[redqueen]

57. And it's the people getting their "news" from the teevee

that are answering all these polls.

*sigh*

[Greyhound]

58. I believe they are scared to death of Congressman Kucinich.

No questions in the ABC debate until after the half-hour, when they know the majority have tuned out, and editing him out of the pictures of the candidates on stage.

It's blatant and it should be illegal, oh wait, it was until Raygun eliminated the fairness doctrine.
:kick: