Biden: who was first calling for Rummy's resignation?

[ginnyinWI]

Yesterday on the teevee, Biden said something like, "look I was the first one to call for Rumsfeld's resignation a couple of years ago." And alarm bells started going off in my head. Because I know that JK called for Rummy's resignation about three years ago, in the summer of 2003. Does anyone know if Biden's call preceded JK's, or not?

[wisteria]

1. I can't say for sure, but knowing how Biden toots his own horn, he

probably wasn't the first. I'll stick with JK's calling for Rumsfield's resignation being the first. Biden,IMO would never have called for the resignation way back when, because, it wouldn't have been to his advantage to do so and could have been politically dicey for him.Biden isn't a leader he is a TV ham.

[fedupinBushcountry]

2. This is what gets Biden in trouble

Kerry was the first and did so on 9/26/03. He had a petition on his site, the only other person to do so at that time was Dean. Now there may have been a few Congress people. But I remember no other Senator who said it first.

[karynnj]

15. That's what I remember too

Here's a link that speaks of only Kerry and then Dean - on 9/26/03 - like you said making that call. No mention of Biden, though I believe he was playing with the idea of running in 2004 at that time.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3087318/

Kerry might not have been first - googling to find BIden's comments - the earliest I 've found is a very tenuous call in May, 2004 - I found this - Congressman Obey called for Rumsfeld's resignation before September 8 , 2003. (Note: Biden's answers here do not lead to Biden was right moment.)

"NBC’s Tom Brokaw twice asked whether someone in the administration should be “held accountable” for the mess in Iraq, a theme which matched the demand made last week by a single Member of Congress, liberal Democrat David Obey, that Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz resign."
<snip>
Up first with Brokaw after Russert, Senator Joe Biden, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Brokaw reminded him of how he “said earlier today it’s time for the American people to be, to get a 'leveling speech’ from their President. Did the President level with the American people tonight Senator Biden?”

Biden thought he did: “He did Tom and he should be given credit for that. It’s an incredible first step. The second step now is to be as resolute in his negotiations at the United Nations, to get that international support and I hope our allies are as magnanimous in acknowledging past mistakes as the President implicitly did. He’s made a real u-turn here Tom. He’s essentially rejected the advice of his neo-conservatives up to now who’ve been wrong and embraced the advice of Powell. I think it took a big man to do that and I plan on supporting him.”

Brokaw soon asked: “Senator Biden, obviously there has been a profound failure of intelligence about what would happen once we got to Baghdad. Shouldn’t someone in the administration be held accountable for that?”
Biden: “Well it wasn’t so profound Tom. Remember the hearing you covered that Senator Lugar and I had? We predicted, Democrat and Republican, that there would be no Iraqi army stood up, there would be no police force....”
http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2003/cyb20030908.asp

Here about one week before Kerry and Dean called for resignation, Biden pretty much AVOIDS a direct question on it and was saying in September 2003 that Bush was making an about face! (The ...... might mean Biden said yes - but the other comments don't support that - I haven't been able to find the Brokaw interview.)

Here's Biden in May, 2004 - still equivical:

“Legislators Demand Rumsfeld Answers on Iraq Abuse,” by Shannon McCaffrey and Sumana Chatterjee, the Philadelphia Inquirer. Pull quote: “‘Who is responsible for what happened?’ asked Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. ‘I think it starts with Rumsfeld and works its way down.’ Biden said the abuse ‘warrants somebody's resignation,’ but he declined to say whether it should be Rumsfeld’s.”

http://rittenhouse.blogspot.com/2004_05_01_rittenhouse_archive.html

So Biden being Biden maybe he told a waitress at a restaurant in Delaware - who then said he should run for President. Both these quotes sound like he absolutely did not make a clear unequivical statement that Rumsfeld had to go before Dean and Kerry.

By the way - I found a Kerry Abu Ghraib/ Geneva Convention statement to the Washington Post that absolutely refutes Klein's comments that he didn't take a strong position.

It's slightly off topic - but I thought others might like it>
So

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46565-2004Oct19.html

[beachmom]

17. You are so right, Karynnj (re: Abu Ghraib)

That was a definitive moment for Kerry, and he DEFINITELY called for Rumsfeld's resignation in no uncertain terms following the Abu Ghraib scandal.

As I stated before (but I just am so mad about it, I have to say it again), it was Andrew Sullivan who starting going off on Kerry being "complicit to torture", by not "speaking out against it". I called him on his B.S., researching what Kerry had said with a lot of help from you guys. Then, suddenly 6 months later, this "focus group" crap ends up in Joe Klein's book. I know for a fact that Sully and Joe are big buddies, dreaming about a third party together. So don't you know that those two talked about this issue, while completely ignoring the detailed info I sent to Andrew. Then, I watched Kerry on This Week answer the question as if I had handed him all of my research not 5 minutes before the show -- his answer was 100% honest, without embellishing one iota. That's when I learned two things: pundits at Time have agendas which lead them to omit facts as they so choose and secondly, Kerry took his Mom's advice to heart -- he's all about integrity.

In regards to Biden -- whatever, Mr. Hot Air. He lies and embellishes so often who can keep count? (and he should thank his lucky stars he's not running against Allen in Virginia. I still remember his gaffe talking about Indian Americans who own 7/11's, et al).

[karynnj]

18. Did you look at the Washington Post link on Abu Ghraib?

I wish I had that back when Klein's garbage came out. I read the NYT, not the WP and saw nothing written on this extremely strong statement. I agree with the comment on Kerry's integrity - which may partially account for why he can calmly and accuarely answer these questions. He did what he thought right then and now.

I'm saving this link - because in it Kerry VERY SPECIFICALLY deals with all of this and here it's covered in one of the two papers of record.

[karynnj]

19. More links on this

I tried to edit this in but the time elapsed - so it disappeared when I tried to update.

The Kerry statement is here in the October diary:
Statement:
"A Kerry administration will apply the Geneva Conventions to all battlefield combatants captured in the war on terror. We will abide by a principle long enshrined in our military manuals: That America does not treat prisoners in ways we would consider immoral and illegal if perpetrated by the enemy on Americans."
http://www.ericumansky.com/kerry/index.html

Here's the Washington Post editorial that said Kerry hasn’t said he would change policy on Abu Ghraib that triggered the release of the statement – I guess saying it’s immoral and that he would fire the SOD because of it means NOTHING to the WP.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34176-2004Oct14.html

As to Sullivan and Klein that clear, unambiguous statement was issued 2 weeks before the election. The right wing actually used it against Kerry. Look at this nasty (inaccurate) Wall Street Journal screed.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005836

[_dynamicdems]

3. Has anyone checked Biden's site?

Let's see if he has any record of it on his site.

I personally think he's full of it.


Edit: I'm going through his Senate Web site and there are statements listed going back as far as 9/24/03 in which Rumsfeld is mentioned. I'm not seeing anything yet and I'm already past the date of Kerry's first call for Rummy to resign. Maybe it's listed elswehere, but Biden should be called on to document his claim.

[fedupinBushcountry]

5. I googled

and all I could find is him saying AFTER Rumsfeld offered to resign in '04 that he should. Remember Bush did not accept his resignation.

[_dynamicdems]

7. I went to Biden's site and did a search in his press statements and

interviews.

(Great feature: being able to search press statements by keywords. I wish Kerry had that on his site.)

It looks like Joe is full of hot air on this. He was saying something to the effect that if he were prez, he'd fire people who didn't do their jobs but he stopped short of actually calling for resignation. Kerry was way ahead of him on that.

[ProSense]

4. "I was in the Oval Office the other day"

June 24, 2004
Press Release

NEWS CLIP: Rolling Stone Interview on What Next for Iraq?

This article originally appeared in ROLLING STONE on June 24, 2004.

Snip...

Biden: I was in the Oval Office the other day, and the president asked me what I would do about resignations. I said, "Look, Mr. President, would I keep Rumsfeld? Absolutely not." And I turned to Vice President Cheney, who was there, and I said, "Mr. Vice President, I wouldn't keep you if it weren't constitutionally required." I turned back to the president and said, "Mr. President, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld are bright guys, really patriotic, but they've been dead wrong on every major piece of advice they've given you. That's why I'd get rid of them, Mr. President -- not just Abu Ghraib." They said nothing. Just sat like big old bullfrogs on a log and looked at me.

http://biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=223100

That's a call for resignation? Biden is full of himself!

Dean, Kerry call on Rumsfeld to quit
Defense secretary accused of ‘pattern of deception’ on Iraq

The Associated Press
Updated: 12:56 p.m. ET Sept. 26, 2003

WASHINGTON, Sept. 26 - Democratic presidential candidates Howard Dean and John Kerry have called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign, citing a “pattern of deception” in his statements on Iraq and a failure to plan for the postwar period.

KERRY, A SENATOR from Massachusetts, first said Thursday that Rumsfeld should step down, saying he proceeded in Iraq “in an arrogant, inappropriate way that has frankly put America at jeopardy.”

Dean, the former governor of Vermont, joined the call Friday and added Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz to the list of those who should quit. Dean announced that he was starting a national petition drive on the Internet to demonstrate support for their resignations.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3087318

[_dynamicdems]

8. Biden was given clear opportunity to call for Rumsfeld's resignation

in the Snuffy interview in 2003 and he hedged.

[ProSense]

10. Exactly! n/t

[ginnyinWI]

13. that oval office story!

That is just classic Biden, isn't it? What a flim-flam man. Sorry I just don't buy this story at all. :rofl:

[_dynamicdems]

6. This seems to prove Biden is full of bull!

Interview with Snuffy on November 9, 2003:

STEPHANOPOULOS: I want to play you something you said about secretary Rumsfeld earlier this week on the Imus program and get you to respond. Here it is.

(Taped) BIDEN: If you were President of the United States and you had gotten advice as to what would happen after Saddam fell from Cheney and Rumsfeld and the rest and all of it turned out to be wrong and you were running your business now, okay, the guys around you, all the advice they gave you was dead wrong, you'd probably fire them, wouldn't you?

BIDEN: Yeah.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Now, President Bush can't fire Vice President Cheney. But do you think he should fire Secretary Rumsfeld?

BIDEN: As you know, I never suggested what a president should or shouldn't do. If I were president of the United States, and I got that advice, I would ask my secretary to leave because he got other advice, which was the exact opposite, that turned out to be right. The advice he was getting from Powell, the advice he was getting from the uniformed military, the advice he was getting even from the internal reports of the national security council turned out to be right. They said there would be no infrastructure to be able to be stood up in Iraq immediately afterward. There would be no police force capable of doing that. There would be not enough money in from the oil revenues, so you had one half of your administration giving you the correct advice, one half giving you the wrong advice. You took all the wrong advice. I think I would say, those folks should go or at least not be listened to.

STEPHANOPOULOS: If you were president, Rumsfeld would be gone. Let me ask you --

BIDEN: Again, I'm not suggesting the president do that. That's the president's decision. His comfort level, his comfort level. If he thinks he should stay, he should stay, but if it were me, I would say, "Why don't we play golf?"

http://www.biden.senate.gov/newsroom/details.cfm?id=214904&&&search_field=rumsfeld

This isn't exactly a bold call for resignation is it?

[fedupinBushcountry]

9. This says it all

BIDEN: Again, I'm not suggesting the president do that. That's the president's decision. His comfort level, his comfort level. If he thinks he should stay, he should stay

Biden's humor really irks me, I think it's his ego that makes him think he is witty, it really gets annoying after awhile.

[ginnyinWI]

14. and even if this qualifies--

and I really don't think it does--it's dated after JK's call for Rumsfeld's resignation. And also after Howard Dean's.

[fedupinBushcountry]

11. He did say that

He said "I was the first guy to call for his resignation a couple of years ago" can't remember if he said guy or person.

Video here:
http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/

[ginnyinWI]

12. thanks everyone!

Sorry I haven't been back to check on your answers before now. It's as I suspected; Biden is full of it, as usual. Doesn't he know there are such things as word-searches and people talking to each other on the internet? Wouldn't he be surprised to know about this thread!

[JI7]

16. he has a history of taking credit for things other people did