Anybody watching the Senate?

[TayTay]

Port Security discussion today, then the Senate will take up the bill to expand the power of the Government to torture and to eavesdrop on American communications. This is going to be a humdinger of a session and one of the most important of the last 5 years. Keep an eye on this discussion, it's very, very important. (Particularly watch Sens. Warner, McCain and Graham. They are key to get a backdated okay for the Admin to torture and to indemnify Admin people against any legal challenges to the tortures already performed.) Boy, game on, for real this time.

[TayTay]

1. BTW, Harry Reid just said Iraq is in 'Civil War'

Hmmm, I wonder who forced that debate on the Democrats and who is giving them the spine to stand up and say this.

Harry Reid called Bush out as being political on 9/11. GV, I regret to inform you that Icky Ricky is now on the floor giving the 'Who us?" reply from the Rethugs. (We don't play politics with 9/11, we are so pure and sweet and patriotic that we couldn't do that.)

Santorum is a jerk. He is interpreting Reid words as saying it's religious violence that's what sectarian means. (Al Qaeda did it, Icky says are we trying to ignore Al Qaeda?) What a flaming arsehole.

[TayTay]

2. PA people, I am so sorry for you

I am listening to Santorum rant and he makes no frigging sense at all. He is complaining that the Dems are playing politics and doing so by, ahm, playing politics.

I don't think he was the finest mind of any century. He is a friggin bastid.

[wisteria]

8. Santorum is a real dim bulb. I think Allen actually is smarter than

he is. he has no personality and is smug to hid his lack of intelligence.

[karynnj]

3. I have it on and Santorum is one sick guy

sectarian equals religious? He is conflating Iraq and Al Qaeda. I think he forgot he's in the Senate and not on Fox News. We've had a million "Kerry was right" moments - Santorum is a "Teresa was right" moment. He is getting worse not better.

[TayTay]

4. GV was right.

A 'stupid-off' between George Allen and Icky Ricky would be a very tough call. Each would try to out-stupid the other. Icky Ricky is just awful.

Again, the good people of PA deserve better. (I was unable to get the cloning program to work, you have to find sometalent within your own state. I tried, honestly. Some people are too unique to be cloned, sigh!)

Icky Ricky is now shouting on the floor of the Senate, because nothing makes dumb idea sounds smarter like saying them really, really loudly.

He can't argue. He is all over the place. We have to be serious about war. Do you want Jersey Bariers everywhere. Give up your civil rights because this is the most dangerous enemy we have ever faced. We must have your civil rights so that we can safeguard your liberties.

Friggin bastid.

[karynnj]

6. This is his "bring it on"

"Why don't they kill 3,000 in a day - it's not their way. They want to do a little every day to make it painful."

Where was this lunatic yesterday - when we commenerated having THREE THOUSAND die on 911. Why the HELL would he use the number 3000 like this.

He needs to go - He's facing a difficult time in PA (yay) "Winning losing - matters not to me" (If it doesn't matter - can we choose.)

Durbin now - some needed sanity

[wisteria]

9. No offense to Casey, but we could use a tall good looking Senator.

We have Santorum on the one hand and Specter on the other. Neither one is a pretty sight.

[TayTay]

5. Ahm, GV, this is what Sen. Kerry announced yesterday

in order to help fight the terrorist tactics and help in ID-ing suspects:

Yesterday, US Senators Edward M. Kennedy and John F. Kerry and US Representative Michael E. Capuano announced that Brigham and Women's Hospital will receive a grant of $460,000 from the US Department of Homeland Security to attempt to find ways to make baggage screening more efficient and less subject to error. The money will go to researchers who specialize in human vision and visual attention. -- http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/09/12/looking_back_in_sadness/?page=2

Gee, imagine if we had a President who believed in science and not demagoguery?

[karynnj]

12. Isn't that the hospital that Vanessa Kerry was at?

[TayTay]

15. I think she is a resident there

She is 4th year medical at Harvard and I believe she is assigned to B&W. (Both my kids were born there. Great hospital, btw.)

Nice catch!

[TayTay]

7. Oh thank God, it's Sen. Sweetie!

I love Sen. Durbin, a voice of sanity after the ranting excesses of Sant-idiot.

[TayTay]

10. Sen. Durbin has just been wonderful

He refuted everything Santorum said. :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

What a great Senator and what a sane voice against the jingoism of Icky Ricky. We can keep our country safe while we safeguard what it is about America that actually makes us worth safeguarding.

Oh Bravo Senator on one of the best floor speeches of this session.

[karynnj]

13. He got him on the jihadists being the only enemy willing to die

How could Santorum have forgotten the Kamikaze bombers?

[beachmom]

11. Speaking of Warner/McCain/Graham - did you guys hear this?

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/the_rove_campai.html

Next week, I'm informed via troubled White House sources, will see the full unveiling of Karl Rove's fall election strategy. He's intending to line up 9/11 families to accuse McCain, Warner and Graham of delaying justice for the perpetrators of that atrocity, because they want to uphold the ancient judicial traditions of the U.S. military and abide by the Constitution. He will use the families as an argument for legalizing torture, setting up kangaroo courts for military prisoners, and giving war crime impunity for his own aides and cronies. This is his "Hail Mary" move for November; it's brutally exploitative of 9/11; it's pure partisanship; and it's designed to enable an untrammeled executive. Decent Republicans, Independents and Democrats must do all they can to expose and resist this latest descent into political thuggery. If you need proof that this administration's first priority is not a humane and effective counter-terror strategy, but a brutal, exploitative path to retaining power at any price, you just got it.

Um, the moment Rove goes after Warner is the moment he has jumped the shark, in Virginia anyway. I know plenty of traditional Replublicans who trust Warner completely, and this will raise a red flag that there is something seriously wrong with the Bush WH. Just try it, Mr. Rove, and the consequences of smearing one of the greatest, wisest, and fairest members of the Senate will come down on YOU! I don't always agree with Warner, but for someone to question his resolve in bringing justice to 9/11 families is beyond disgusting.

(Also not that Andrew is pretty much urging people to vote Democratic this fall. Enough is enough.)

[TayTay]

14. Sen Warner is a fair man and a good one

His exchanges with Democratic Senators on the floor have been robust and really informative. His questioning tends to make other Senators really think about what they are saying and put their best responses forward. I deeply respect him. It's just a shame that the Repubs don't have more like him. More honorable men and women of principle.

I can deal with an argument on the merits. We need more of that, more of an honest exchange of ideas. Sen. Warner is an 'honest broker' and I like him.

[_dynamicdems]

29. I like Warner too. Sometimes he makes me angry, because of his

conservative viewpoint, but he has always taken the high road. This isn't someone who plays politics as a game with power as the prize. Like his politics or not, he's a public servant of the old school.

[whometense]

16. I heard that.

If the majority of Virginia republicans feel that way about Warner, I hope they actually do take that approach.

Warner earned my everlasting gratitude for the respect he showed Kerry (as opposed to many dems) on the Senate floor earlier in the summer over his Iraq reslution. I hope he and McCain and Graham hold their ground against Bush - but I'm afraid they won't.

[karynnj]

18. I had no opinion of him before the debate with Kerry

and like you feel a huge amount of respect for Warner as a statesman and person. It looked like it meant a huge amount to Kerry. (Throwing into the record an afirmation of Kerry's silver star was really nice added to the serious comments on the plan.)

I hope they do hold their ground. If McCain wants his POW experience to have any meaning, he has to - this may say whether he is now a complete fraud. I still think Kerry's brave stand against the war and violations of the Geneva Convention give him more credentials as being against torture than the fact that McCain endured (not by choice) torture. With McCain it means he knows what torture is.

[beachmom]

19. I'm worried about the torture -- most of the news has been about

making sure the defendent is read the evidence used against him. Warner/McCain/Graham have excellent arguments that it would NEVER get through the courts anyway, so may as well fix it now.

But on the torture, jury is still out.

What did you make of the sentence Kerry said last Saturday before his most excellent statement of Bush being for torture before he was against it?

Only this week did the Administration finally recognize that the protections of the Geneva Convention had to be applied to prisoners in order to comply with the law, restore our moral authority, and best protect American troops.

I have to say I think Sen. Kerry is being too generous here. The devil is in the details and the bill Bush sent up to Congress seems to be the OPPOSITE of following the Geneva Conventions. Thoughts?

[beachmom]

21. According to the legal experts at Georgetown, bill is not getting better

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/third-draft-of-warner-graham-bill-on.html

Monday, September 11, 2006
Third Draft of Warner-Graham Bill on Military Commissions


JB


The third version of the Warner-Graham bill is here. Sad to say, this bill is not getting better than the previous draft, and in some ways it is getting worse. It prevents judicial suits for damages for violations of the Geneva Conventions, eliminates habeas relief for aliens held outside the United States, thus effectively reversing the Rasul decision, and narrows the War Crimes Act, substituting language about "grave breaches" for the general prohibition on violating Common Article 3. The new version would remove some (but not all) of the CIA interrogation techniques from prosecution under the War Crimes Act; I am not sure whether the ban on cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment as defined would cover waterboarding-- I certainly hope it would, but you never know.

Posted 5:21 PM by JB


Plus, a good post about how we should judge what torture is based on if Stalin used it (pretty clever):

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2006/09/on-stalins-torturous-alternative-set.html

[TayTay]

22. These are opposing viewpoints on torture

as a method of extracting information from enemies in a time of war. Kerry has never believed in using torture. (That was part of his outrage over what he was ordered to do in Vietnam. He speicifcally mentioned the Geneva Conventions and how they were ignored in the free-fire zones and so forth.)

Kerry and many other Dems and even some Repubs do not believe that torture is either good froeign policy or that it works. The neocons and Cheney in particular seem to think that torture results in information that is likely to lead to results in their GWOT.

This is a fundamental difference in worldview and in how we implement our policies. Kerry is not for torture as allowable policy for the US government. (This is one thread going through his whole life. It is, in a way, responsible for his whole public life, that sense of outrage over things that were wrong and the fact that the government said one thing and did another.)

The bill sent up is a bid to grant backdated permission for agents of this US government to torture and to be held above the law and forbid any courts from prosecuting them for torturing people. (This is against the law currently and is against international law.) Ahm, I can't see Kerry voting for this or not making strong statements against it. However, this is a very tricky one as the Repubs may have the votes on their own to pass it without having to curry Democratic favor. (Except for Lieberman who doesn't object to this, sigh.)

[beachmom]

24. I agree on your assessment on Kerry

I also realize the Dems are being shut out of the negotiations of this bill. But if we are to believe the legal experts (I posted above) who were quoted from the NYT, too, and who definitely have liberal creds, this bill will not fix all of the problems, and may make them worse (re: torture). Many staffers on Capitol Hill have already expressed frustration on the complexity of the bill, so perhaps not everyone has grasped or agrees with the legal experts' assessment. We may end up with a bad bill, but one that is so complex and ambiguous, many Democrats will vote for it, not realizing the amount of loopholes for torture it allows.

I have no clue what the viewpoint in Sen. Kerry's office is, so it's just a wait and see, I guess.

[TayTay]

27. AHm, judging by the commentary on the floor today by Sen. Reid

I think the Dems will be talking about this in their caucus today. I would expect some clue as to how the bill will be opposed in floor speech later on. Sen. Reid was against this bill, so I think the Dems will be able to articulate a position against it. (There isn't much good in it so no real reason to be torn on how to vote, as I understand it.)

[karynnj]

23. In the context of that entire section, he was unambiguous

Bush's statement, which may be insincere, is a step forward from his 2004 position. Kerry is right to point out that only this week ....finally did Bush agree to what America should always have done. He then had one of his very best lines - knocking Bush for being against torture after he was for it.

I seriously think that Kerry, with his history of demanding accountability, will look at the details. To fight Bush BEFORE the details are known is premature and would be presupposing that Bush was lying in that statement. Kerry knows what the Geneva Convention reguires - he knew it as a 27 year old. One of his 5 planks is related to MORAL Leadership. I trust Kerry to work hard to persuade his peers to do the right thing and he has included in his 5 R's one that would demand speaking out if the bill were immoral. (Have you ever heard a Senator use the word immoral as often with the seriousness Kerry has?)

Kerry has said MORE than anyone else on "no torture" and his comments on regaining our moral standing are strong coupled with his personal history - which he just reaffirmed this year, I think we need to trust him - until there's a reason not to. (Those statements resonated in that crowd - I'm sure the Senator got the message that his supporters wanted to hear what he said. It's also clear that many of his speeches this year have exposed more of Kerry's inner core belief system. From all i saw this is not an issue to play politics with.

[beachmom]

25. I don't question Kerry's sincerity one bit on the torture, but the details

WERE known prior to the speech. Remember my dissenting posts on Kerry's Hardball performance that you all graciously put up with? That was on Friday, and we KNEW the details of that bill then. Bush said we will adhere to the Geneva Conventions while the bill sent to the Hill would legalize torture -- things like waterboarding. That's why I thought his statement was generous -- although you have a point that at least Bush's rhetoric has changed. Nevertheless, his ACTIONS remain the same -- wanting to torture and get the Congress to make it legal for him.

Perhaps, Sen. Kerry was waiting for the McCain/Warner/Graham compromise details, and also not willing to hurt Dems politically by pointing out the fundamental flaws in the bill, but I the purist would love to have heard him nail Bush for that damned bill in its original form.

[karynnj]

26. I see what you are saying

The Democrats are shut out of the process. Because Kerry used the future tense - I thought that the actual designation of precisely where the line will be drawn has not yet been ridgely drawn.

the generosity may be less than it seems - Kerry can, of course, blast Bush if he then backs a bill with torture in it - (then he was "for" "against" and then "for")

Kerry sneaks in the damning statement that Bush approved torture in defiance of the Geneva Convention. Also, you wouldn't need to regain moral authority if you didn't lose it. Putting all this in as given is as strong as you can get.

[TayTay]

28. I don't think the Warner, McCain, Graham ngotiations will matter

The House will never agree to a bill that offers anything less than full immunity to the Government and it's legal and authorized agents to use torture. If the bill as a whole fails the Senate, it dies.

I think the Dems are fairly united on this (a Lieverman and a brace of Nelsons aside) and that they will oppose this bill. I hope some Repubs join them and then it can be successfully filibustered.

[beachmom]

30. Thanks for the update, Tay Tay!! This is good news.

Reports from the NYT as well as Brooks/Oliphant on the News Hour last week made it seem like Democrats were just going to vote for the McCain/Warner/Graham version, whatever it turned out to be. I am glad that it appears they were wrong. Good, good, good!

[TayTay]

31. Keep you eye on this one

There are a core group of Dems, mostly Southern, Western, who do not vote in the 'Dem' block. They are the ones to worry about here, not Kerry/Durbin/Levin etc. (I don't think Ms. Clinton would vote for this. She finds it a critical vote. I'm not sure the waivering Dems would.)

[karynnj]

17. It does seem that this would be going to far

both because of the exploitation of the 911 families and the fact that It should wake up people that he is even going after Senator Warner.

[wisteria]

20. I will say this, when Bush nicknamed Rove Turd Blossom he was completely

correct. I believe in karma, someday, somehow Rove will get what he has coming to him.

[TayTay]

32. Sen Feinstein talking about the Surveillance Bills now

She is talking about a markup hearing tomorrow in Judiciary. That should be a whopper of a hearing. They are going to try and combine about 4 bills into one. Whew!

I was going to watch the Lebanon Hearing in SFRC tomorrow morning. We might need volunteers to watch this hearing and let us know how it goes. (Senate Judiciary tomorrow morning. )

****************************

Wait a minute, now it says on the website that this has been cancelled:


DATE: September 13, 2006 : http://judiciary.senate.gov/schedule_all.cfm
TIME: 09:30 AM
ROOM: Dirksen 226
OFFICIAL HEARING NOTICE / WITNESS LIST:
September 8, 2006
NOTICE OF COMMITTEE HEARING CANCELLATION
The hearing on "Intelligence Information Sharing" scheduled by the Senate Committee on the Judiciary for Wednesday, September 13, 2006 at 9:30 a.m. in Room 226 of the Senate Dirksen Office Building has been cancelled.

By order of the Chairman

***************************


The hearing is still up on the main Senate hearing list: http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/committees/b_three_sections_with_teasers/committee_hearings.htm


****************************
9:30 a.m.
Judiciary
Business meeting to consider S.2453, to establish
procedures for the review of electronic
surveillance programs, S.2455, to provide in
statute for the conduct of electronic
surveillance of suspected terrorists for the
purposes of protecting the American people, the
Nation, and its interests from terrorist attack
while ensuring that the civil liberties of United
States citizens are safeguarded, S.2468, to
provide standing for civil actions for
declaratory and injunctive relief to persons who
refrain from electronic communications through
fear of being subject to warrantless electronic
surveillance for foreign intelligence purposes,
and S.3001, to ensure that all electronic
surveillance of United States persons for foreign
intelligence purposes is conducted pursuant to
individualized court-issued orders, to streamline
the procedures of the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act of 1978.
SD-226
**************

Hmmmmm, I wonder what is up?