Well Tay... you probably heard about FOX covering Princeton study video

[blm]

and now this posted reminder....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2157887&mesg_id=2157887


Sounds to me like some DEMOCRATIC lawmakers waited a bit too long to get ahead on the issue in a more public way, and now the GOPs will usurp it to cover their own deceptions and be seen as the potential VICTIMS.

Nice. He..... who ....hesitates.....

[sandnsea]

1. Sorry, but they aren't yelling "stolen election, stolen election"

We don't present problems in language that the majority of the public can hear. They do.

And even if we had focused on the myriad of glitches across the country to simplify it for the public, there's still no concensus on the solution. Some don't differentiate vvpt from paper as the ballot, others keep ranting about hand counts, few ever even mention source code at all. Then it gets mixed up with registration and campaign finance and a brazillion other election issues, and people get lost altogether.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Republicans end up with this as their issue. They keep it simple and their base doesn't know anything except what they tell them so they just repeat whatever lame "solution" the rat bastards come up with.

[blm]

3. That's my point, and always has been. All a prominent Democrat had to do

was make the machine issue ALL ABOUT SECURING The NEXT ELECTION.

That was what I have been pushing for as the practical approach.

[sandnsea]

21. I agree with that

Unfortunately I don't think even our politicians could hear the basic machine problems over the louder stolen election mantra. I think it sounds to them like people want to prove machine fraud has happened, not tighten up machine security for the simple reason it's the right thing to do. And even if a prominent Dem had tried to discuss machine security, I'd bet if they didn't go down the stolen election path, they would be attacked by the left anyway. Honestly, I don't know how any Democrat stands to be an elected official these days.

[ProSense]

2. There is also an article in the Washington Post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2832009&mesg_id=2832009

The MSM needs to cover this. RFK Jr.'s article stands out as the definitive indictment of all things related to faulty voting machines and election fraud. Kerry is on record in that article.


Kerry has mentioned this in his speeches, and these issues are address in the legislation he put forward:

We have to pass the Count Every Vote Act that Senator Clinton, Senator Boxer, and I have introduced which ensures exactly what the Senator from Oregon was talking about: that every voter in America has a verifiable paper trail for their vote. How can we have a system where you can touch a screen and even after you touch the name of one candidate on the screen, the other candidate's name comes up, and if you are not attentive to what you have done and you just go in, touch the screen, push ``select,'' you voted for someone else and didn't intend to? How can we have a system like that?

How can we have a system where the voting machines are proprietary to a private business so that the public sector has no way of verifying what the computer code is and whether or not it is accountable and fair? Just accounting for it. -- John kerry

[blm]

4. Of course, WE know that - but the first time most of the public will hear

about it, you can bet it will come from GOPs who will be absolutely FEARLESS about presenting the issue as one THEY will be taking the lead to promote concern.

And THAT is where too many Democrats have failed by not taking it head on more PROMINENTLY.

[karynnj]

5. I don't share your concern

The issue is that the process we used for voting has to be clean, transparent and failsafe. I don't see how the Republicans can use this. They can't BOTH have fraudulent elections in the future and lead in really fixing this issue.

What Democrats need to do is:
- Insure that the fix really leads to an honest process
- Don't even THINK of cheating in states we control

The fact is the 3 companies making voting machines are run by RW CEOs. The two states with disputed results were controlled by the GOP.

[blm]

6. I know how it SHOULD come down when only the facts are in play.

But the media is not our friend.

Look at the difference between the facts about Kerry's service record and the facts about Bush's service record after they came though the media filter.

[karynnj]

12. point conceded

They could play it that way. The end result needs to be a clean system though

[ProSense]

14. The bigger issue is

why now? Why is the media doing this now, less than 60 days away from the elections? They wanted nothing to do with the issue when RFK's article came out. In fact, they rachetted up the conspiracy theory angle to try to discredit the story.

It could be that they are trying to put the emphasis on the machines as the problem and not the other factors -- ownership, tampering, vote suppression, etc. If the machines are to blame, the errors can go both ways, but we know the BS. The errors in 2004 went to Bush. There are also other issues, including tampering.

From the GAO report:

Multiple recent reports, including several state-commissioned technical reviews and security assessments, voiced concerns about the development of secure and reliable electronic voting systems by system vendors. Three major areas of concern are weak security controls, audit trail design flaws, and weak security management practices. Weak system security controls. Some electronic voting systems provided weak system security controls over key components (including electronic storage for votes and ballots, remote system access equipment, and system event and audit logs), access to the systems, and the physical system hardware.

Yet the WaPo article implies that the porcess is completely secure:

Machine vendors and some election officials have said that, while changing vote totals may be possible for someone with sophisticated technical knowledge in a controlled experiment, it is highly unlikely in a real election, given the security and oversight.

[kerrygoddess]

7. I just posted about this

have both of the video's up in the post: http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=4202

I'll see what I can do about asking about this tomorrow...

[blm]

8. Thanks - - I am especially concerned because FOX never does ANYTHING

without an angle.

[TayTay]

9. BLM, I don't understand what you are saying

Kerry did speak about this and even talked about it on the floor of the Senate.

The demonstration video of how the machines can be hacked just went up. If this gets it into the wider public knowledge, that is a good thing.

There is still no legislative push to correct this and it will take a while to even get it talked about.

I don't get why this is a problem for Kerry? He has been speaking out on it. He has also spoken out about the possible changes in the law that the Repubs want to put in to 'fix' registration before voters get anywhere near a voting machine, which is a grave threat to voting rights.

I don't understand your point? IF Republicans take up the issue of clean elections, so much the better. Maybe something will be done on it in the next Congress. This Congress sure as hell didn't want to do anything with it.

[blm]

10. I know he has - - but the Dem party not PRESSING it as the HUGE issue

it is, will assure that GOPs get the steam on this. Seriously, he's brought it up on the senate floor, why not have a press conference WITH a demonstration by the experts in front of the DC press corps?

Why would that be so hard for ANY Dem? I just don't get it. How could they let the GOPs grab it and make themselves the defenders of democracy, when they are the ones who perfected the scheme in the first place?

[TayTay]

11. Because they were not believed on the issue

and there was no clear proof that this was done. Even this demostration is merely proof that under the right circumstances and with the right programmers with malicious intent that it CAN be done, not that it WAS done.

It is possible to game the machine and force a false result. But that is not proof that it was done. What it does is sow the seeds that elections can be stolen, not that they were stolen.

The GOP would have the same problems with the issue that the Dems have, they have no proof. They have the basis for an investigation, not proof. Same as the Dems, but maybe we are a little closer to an investigation, which would take a long time in and of itself.

I still don't get it. How is this a loss for either the Dems or Kerry?

[blm]

13. I've been stressing the approach 'what CAN happen in the future' and not

about challenging the 2004 election.

My point was ALWAYS for Kerry to be seen LEADING on the issue before 2006 and 2008 so he would be seen doing what Gore did not after his loss by election fraud - MAKING SURE the issue was covered COMPREHENSIVELY and explaining all the aspects of fraud that needed public attention and citizen awareness.

A key to that was holding a press conference and overseeing a DEMONSTRATION about how it CAN be done so it would assure voters and candidates in 2006 and 2008.

I know I'm an awkward writer, but, I thought by now I made that point clear.

[TayTay]

15. I don't understand what good that would have done

Sen. Kerry has spoken on this issue numerous times. While it has generated news in the blogosphere, it had no legs in the media world. The issue was too complicated and too unsettling for the regular news media to get.

I don't think a news conference done by Kerry on this would have done much of anything until the ground work had been laid. It is still being laid. We don't have fraud, we have suspicion of fraud.

Nothing is going to happen if this is seen as the captive issue of one person. I think that would be seen as grandstanding and might even harm the cause. This issue, along with the issue of voter registration, has to be dealt with by all of the Democrats, and should have Republicans on board as well.

I still don't see what having just John Kerry there would do. He is still one voice, albeit a big one, on the national scene. I don't get it. Wouldn't it be more powerful to have all the potential candidates for '08, Dem and Repub, united on this in one big public display? That way, no one person can be seen as doing this for grand-standing purposes. I am glad the Repubs are involved, maybe that will help to get real press interest.

[blm]

16. I don't want him to be the only voice, but other Dems, like Rush Holt and

Barbara Boxer would likely stand with him only to HIGHLIGHT The CONCERN For the SECURITY OF FUTURE ELECTIONS. No one has to say word one about 2004.

Where we disagree is that I think it's an AWFUL development that GOPs will be seen leading on machine fraud issue - because it means they have spent the last couple months examining Kennedy's case, and have figured out HOW best to cover their own asses and tracks.

So, no, I am not happy that the issue is going to get coverage - it's going to get GOP-SPUN coverage, where I always just wanted the facts laid out point by point with NO SPIN.

[TayTay]

17. It is my understanding that this hit RW talk radio a while ago

and has been talked about on CNN on the Lou Dobbs show, which I don't watch. I think the GOP always had it on their radar to attack voting trough registration requirements. I think that was the point of bringing up immigration reform this year. Under the guise of protecting the nation from an influx of whatever immigrant group we should be scared of this week, the GOP would tighten the requirement for who could register to vote and make punishing and difficult demands on what paperwork would be accepted to allow someone to register. The paperwork requirement could be tweaked in a way that favored voters most likely to vote GOP and hinder those most likely to vote Democratic.

This RW talk radio appeal didn't go very far. I just don't feel that the whole issue of voting rights comes across to Americans as a partisan issue. I think that is part of why it is hard to get media traction. If one side pushes it, without some sort of stearing mechanism that shows that it is a non-partisan issue and one of basic American fairness and basic civil rights, then it just doesn't go anywhere.

The only way to fix this is to get it out into the open. We need transparency and we need people on both sides to push it. The GOP did not see this as helping them, so they stayed away and called anyone who advocated for an investigation a conspiracy theorist and a nut job. If they are changing their minds, then it's news and worth covering.

You can lead, but there has to be someone to follow. There was no one to follow, this item had zero traction. The news about Fox playing the video or showing the demostration is good, maybe it will bring some more people on board and a real investigation can begin. I don't see the down side to this.

[ProSense]

18. There is a point to emphasize

The news about Fox playing the video or showing the demostration is good, maybe it will bring some more people on board and a real investigation can begin.

It will never happen until the Democrats take control. Faux, of course, is welcome to continue giving the issue exposure until such time.

[blm]

19. I hope so, Tay. I hope I'm just overreacting.

But don't feel that I am - I almost always nail BushInc's motivations from the getgo. On this, I seriously HOPE I am overreacting.

[TayTay]

20. I don't think it's overreacting. The Bushies are very upfront

about their plans to lock in a Republican Majority by co-opting Democratic voters and by restricting access to the ballot for likely Dem voters. That is a fact and goes back to, at the very latest, the 1988 campaign. (Though we know that it has really been a strategy of the GOP since the Civil Rights movement itself. What was 'the Southern Strategy' after all, but an attempt to co-opt the Dem vote by alienating the Democrats from their natural base.)

I don't trust the GOP as far as I can throw them. I just think that on this issue, which I also feel passionately about, the approach to actually getting action has to be different. At heart, the case against voting machine accuracy is not easy to grasp for a general audience. (This is why I liked the video of the fraud so much, but it is also very long for a general audience to sit through.) The statistical stuff, which does make a convincing argument that something went wrong, is not understandable or presentable for a TV audience. (It just isn't. It's too wonky.)

We don't even have all the Democrats on-board. There are leading Democrats who chair the actual committees who have jurisdiction over voting procedures in federal elections that don't think there is a huge problem with the elections. We have to get to those people. This problem is much bigger than one person. I don't see any 'credit' to give to just one person doing this, I just don't. Pressure to amend the system and make it tamper-proof has to come from a lot of groups and people or it won't be enough. That's just how I see it.

So much of this case has seemed backwards to me. The fact that Kerry lost in Ohio is seen as proof that the system is fixed and full of fraud. It's not about Kerry, it's about the voting system and making sure it works properly and transparently and that we can be assured that it works without fraud. We have to go from the beginning on this and not assume the ending. I think too much of what is on the web assumes the ending, without proving real fraud.

[Blaukraut]

22. the immigration issue in relation to voting should have no traction

at all. I don't know if Americans don't know this, but NO immigrant is allowed to vote unless he/she has attained the US citizenship. So fearing a huge democratic voter influx from millions of immigrants is a ridiculous scare tactic the GOP use. (what else is new?) Most of those immigrants never even acquire the US citizenship - only green cards. I've been a Legal 'Alien' (greencard holder) for 22 years now and have never been allowed to vote. period.