Warner: Kerry wrong on taxcuts.

[Mass]

Even Lieberman was for reversing the tax cuts on the higher brackets.

This guy is really a Democrat? And worse, he is the darling of such self-proclaimed liberal bastions like kos and mydd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2168727

Warner: Kerry wrong on tax cuts
The ex-Virginia governor claims Democrats could appeal to more voters if they'd stop alienating the wealthy.

By THOMAS BEAUMONT
REGISTER STAFF WRITER

September 19, 2006


Former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner said in Iowa on Monday that Democrats have taken the wrong approach in arguing against tax cuts enacted under President Bush, singling out former Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's campaign as a reason the message did not resonate in 2004.

In order to appeal to more voters, the party ought to avoid alienating wealthier Americans, Warner told members of the Greater Des Moines Partnership in Des Moines at the outset of a day of meetings in the lead-off caucus state.

"I think the Kerry campaign missed something," Warner, who is weighing a 2008 presidential campaign, told about 50 local business leaders.

"Even though the Bush tax cuts only applied to the top 2 percent of Americans, what I think the Kerry campaign missed was that the other 98 percent of Americans still aspired to get to the point in their life where they could qualify for the tax cuts."

The Bush tax cuts have been uniformly opposed by Democrats.

...
A top Kerry aide Monday characterized the same idea as a generational responsibility.

"Senator Kerry believes that most Americans understand that leaving the tab for the next generation is unconscionable and investing in opportunity is good for all of us," David Wade said.
...

This definitively closes the question on whether he is an acceptable candidate for 08. Not alienate the rich?

[ProSense]

1. Fork this one,

he's done!

"Even though the Bush tax cuts only applied to the top 2 percent of Americans, what I think the Kerry campaign missed was that the other 98 percent of Americans still aspired to get to the point in their life where they could qualify for the tax cuts."

:wtf: :wtf:


Maybe he's been talking to Cheney about the working poor!

[karynnj]

4. This ignores that those in the top 2% attuned to the

Democratic message - voted for it. I know a few people in that category, thanks to meeting far wealtier parents of kids who went to the private school my daughter went to.

How does Mr Warner plan to pay for any additional social programs or take care of the deficit?

There is an enomomic theory that the reason the US has never had class politics to the extent that England, for example, has is that people identify with the class they attain to versus the class they are in. This is supposed to be based on a distorted view of the ease for moving from one economic tier to another.

This is suicide in the Democratic party - look for DLC being mentioned ... a lot.

[globalvillage]

2. What an idiot.

Is this posted in GDP? I'm curious to see if anyone defends this bullshit.

[Mass]

3. I posted it on GD, but it is not an attack on Hillary or Kerry, so it does

not resonnate too much.

[ProSense]

5. Not everyone agrees with Warner's win-the-lottery economic policy

Clinton slams tax cuts, budget deficit
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/elec04.prez.clinton/index.html

Ex-N.Y. Gov. Cuomo lambastes Bush over 'unfair' tax cut plans
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20030117-9999_1m17cuomo.html

There are a lot wealthy people who believe the tax-cuts are bad policy.

[beachmom]

6. What could he POSSIBLY have been thinking?

Look, Mark Warner RAISED taxes in Virginia. What made him great was that he CUT parts of the budget, then went to the Republican Assembly and Senate, and said -- look, I can't get the budget balanced, even after deep cuts. Then he managed to get enough Republicans to vote for his plan to put Virginia in EXCELLENT financial condition to this day. He also fought to preserve Medicaid, Education, and get ALL kids in Virginia healthcare. In action, Mark Warner was a good liberal on our bread and butter issues.

My point here, is that he is not only criticzing the Kerry campaign -- he is criticizing his OWN actions as governor of Virginia. This makes no sense -- I guess there are enough DC consultants (obviously from the DLC wing) to sink several presidential campaigns for '08.

I am disappointed in Mark Warner, the candidate. Really -- he was a MUCH better governor than his words suggest today . . .

[karynnj]

11. that really is mystifying

and may be exactly what you say - never having run a national race, a politician is likely to take advise of "experts". I seriously doubt Kerry would - even in 2004 - have so blindly taken advise. (He did reject Clinton's advise to back the gay bashing bills.)

[wisteria]

7. He is positioning himself as a Repub lite and trying to draw attention

to himself as being a different Democrat and take in some business donations. He is so DLC, I can't stand it.
I suppose he could attract some conservative swing voters. It is just that we are suppose to be the party of the everyday people- not the rich. They get plenty of breaks already.It just seems against the whole party to be sucking up to those with money. I really don't like this guy much anymore- yuck. Also,didn't someone mention a while back that Kos is actually more Repub than Democrat? This guy must be the answer to Kos's dreams.

[beachmom]

8. In defense of Kos (I can't believe I'm doing this), he just said he

"liked" Warner. Well, heck, I like Warner, too. He has not endorsed Warner, and I just can't see Kos approving of many of Warner's messages. Kos was a Republican but he is very against the Iraq War and not balancing the budget. Obviously, if we keep all the tax cuts, we won't balance the budget.

We'll see, but Kos has said he likes "muscular" candidates. Warner is not behaving muscularly, and the fact that Kos hasn't had any favorable posts about Warner lately, tells you he's not seeing anything to "write home" about.

[wisteria]

10. Good points. n/t

[sandrakae]

9. He is an idiot. How the hell are we to climb out of this deficit.

[sandnsea]

12. Fucking assholes who support this guy

One of the things that makes me madder than anything is this notion that 98% of the country can squeeze into the wealth of the top 2%. And if people understood that the top 2% income only starts at $200,000 - they'd realize that most folks are always going to be low to middle income and maybe we could finally get this country back to taking care of the people instead of business. Goddamn Mark Warner for alienating and CONFUSING the people for the benefit of a handful of fat cats. Sorry Virginia friends, but your politicians SUCK.

[Democrafty]

13. I was shocked to read this.

I lived in VA when Warner was governer, and the contrast between the haves and have-nots there is really tragic.

I wonder if he will seek to clarify his remarks, because I saw nothing redeeming in the argument that he made.

[ginnyinWI]

14. But what Warner says is how a lot of Republicans still think.

They're mistaken, but they do. They are raised to have, and do have this ingrained belief in the trickle-down theory. They are conditioned to be afraid to upset conditions for the rich and for business, because then nothing will trickle down to them. "What's good for business is good for all of the little people, too"--that's what they firmly believe--and they are loathe to vote for anything which restricts those privileges. That's what got Reagan elected twice, Bush I once, and I suppose Bush II as well, because people thought he'd be another version of his dad.

I know this is true because I was raised this way, too. It's only when people get informed enough or live long enough to realize that they are being scammed by this kind of thinking that they will begin to vote for the peoples' interests directly and stop believing that somehow they will get a piece of that other pie.

[WildEyedLiberal]

16. The question is, why is Warner talking exactly like a Republican?

He expects to make it through a competitive Democratic primary spouting rightwing bullshit? Dream on, Mark. Not even Jerome Armstrong's blog whoredom can save him from this kind of stupidity.

[Democrafty]

18. Wasn't it Harry Truman who said

that, when given a choice between a Democrat who acts like a Republican and a Republican, people would choose a Republican.

Talk about selling out - it's flawed strategy on top of a flawed view of what is supposed to be a moral issue.

[ginnyinWI]

19. my only guess is that he's staking out centrist territory.

He's bashing Kerry and making the case that because he's so centrist and understands Repubs' thinking on tax cuts, that he's the guy to vote for because he can win.

Hm. I remember Joe Lieberman making the same case during the last presidential primaries. He said he could win because he was most like Bush! Definitely NOT the way to win a Democratic primary. We don't want to vote for somebody strategically, we want to vote for the one who shares our values.

[karynnj]

20. Hey, now we know who really wants the Lieberman wing

We'll know for sure if he becomes the darling of TNR

[beachmom]

21. He's already the darling of George Will

My friend who thinks Kerry wants to cede control of our military over to the U.N. loves Mark Warner. At the time, that gave me hope (she is completely under the spell of the right wing, voted for Bush two times, etc.), but now I realize it's not hope at all if he's just going to give us more of the same failed conservative agenda, perhaps a bit more competently. She hates McCain, as do most Republicans I know. I have no idea what is going to happen in '08 . . .

[sandnsea]

22. Which is why Dems shouldn't repeat this stuff

It doesn't work and it's proven repeatedly not to work. Any look at economies under Dems and under Pubs prove it doesn't work. People who vote for this crap won't know they're being scammed until ALL our Democrats tell them they're being scammed. That is what is so annoying about it, centrists wouldn't believe this stuff if they understood economies percolate UP, they do not trickle down.

[kerrygoddess]

15. My Smackdown...

Mark Warner Panders to Wealthy, Supports Bush Tax Cuts
September 19th, 2006 @ 9:02 am

Former Virginia Gov. Mark Warner was in Iowa yesterday pandering to the wealthy and defending the Bush tax cuts. Warner said at an event in Iowa with the Greater Des Moines Partnership in Des Moines, that Democrats have “taken the wrong approach in arguing against tax cuts enacted under President Bush,” and he singled out former “Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry’s campaign as a reason the message did not resonate in 2004.” EXCUSE ME?

Warner told members of the Greater Des Moines Partnership that “in order to appeal to more voters, the party ought to avoid alienating wealthier Americans.”

“I think the Kerry campaign missed something,” Warner, who is weighing a 2008 presidential campaign, told about 50 local business leaders.

“Even though the Bush tax cuts only applied to the top 2 percent of Americans, what I think the Kerry campaign missed was that the other 98 percent of Americans still aspired to get to the point in their life where they could qualify for the tax cuts.”

Where is the logic in this? By and large Democrats across the board opposed the Bush tax cuts and here comes Mark Warner telling us all that we’re wrong. Warner misses the point that a large percentage of the other 98 percent of Americans are aspiring just to make damn ends meet and the last thing they are thinking about is qualifying for that 2 percent pie in the sky bracket that the majority of the American public will NEVER qualify for.

What this sounds like to me is Mark Warner worrying about protecting self-serving interest, his tax cut as a millionaire. Did Warner pay attention during the ‘04 campaign when Kerry talked about the fact that he personally would rather see working americans get much needed health care coverage, than receive another tax cut. And Kerry isn’t the only Democrat who speaks to the Democratic party from the gut and understands that the needs of the masses are for more important than the avaricious goals of the few — I’m talking Bill Clinton, John Edwards and ted kennedy to name a few, all who say they don’t need another tax cut at the cost of Americans going with out health care.

MORE & LINKS - http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=4220#more-4220

[beachmom]

17. Great post, KG. This philosophy also comes out of the Prosperity

Theology (see last week's Time magazine -- gag me with a spoon) as well as huge swaths of the Self Help industry. Now don't get my wrong -- I like reading and own many self help books, but there are good books and not so good books. Somebody like Dr. Phil will stand up there and tell the poor it is ALL THEIR FAULT that they're poor -- "What were they thinking" not doing everything in order to get rich? (Dr. Phil actually grew up poor and seems to have not learned a damned thing) You know the line, and it did get going more than ever during the Reagan years -- You can do ANYTHING you want if you put you're mind to it. Well, the reality is that there are only going to be a certain percentage of millionaires, and that's IF the playing field is reasonably level, which it certainly is not at this time.

We must not underestimate how much these self help gurus affect how people think in terms of becoming wealthy. There are constantly shows and informercials plugging the idea that Warner mentions. It's not just the GOP -- there are con-artists getting rich trying to sell the American dream of instant wealth "if you just follow these 5 steps".

[kerrygoddess]

23. I'll have to check out the Time piece

I missed it. Dr Phil is not my idea of self help guru personally. Never liked his style - both him and Dr Laura raise my hackles.

[beachmom]

24. Well, gee whiz doesn't Mark Warner have a lot of defenders on Kos

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/19/173140/916

These people are paid, I swear to God. The way they argue, they're just not like us or any of the other candidates' supporters. They're astroturfy somehow. Keep note of their names. This guy, Bob Johnson, who is one of the main dissenters, I believe also can't stand Kerry, but he's somebody who seems like a real blogger holds his own against them piling on. The Warner defenders don't.

Also, somebody actually troll rated people who simply criticized Warner. Totally weird and uncalled for, like these people have no clue about the rules.

Here's another one:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/19/10511/9453

I actually like the Edwards supporters who call the Warner guy a "lackey".

[WildEyedLiberal]

26. What pathetic stooges

So Warner kisses their ass at KosCon and pays Jerome Armstrong to whore for him, and like obedient sheep, the Kossacks dutifully worship Warner no matter how DLC (!) and anti-liberal he is.

Can someone remind me again how Kos's cult is any different from Rush Limbaugh's dittoheads?

[beachmom]

28. Oh, these are NEW people mostly (except Bimini Cat)

Bob Johnson, who smacked the Warner people down, is an oldtimer Kossak. These people are brand spanking new, and completely artificial. I will definitely be on the lookout for Kos to praise Warner -- ridiculous on its face -- but at this point, the main Kos bloggers have stayed out of this.

From what I could see (especially the 2nd diary I referenced), the Kossaks are NOT buying into Warner. It's pretty simple -- you can't go from Deaniac to Warner supporter -- it is physically not possible.

[WildEyedLiberal]

35. No, it's really not

And if/when they do make such an unlikely transition, I will be the first one howling about their utter lack of so-called principles. You cannot seriously claim that the DLC is the root of all the party's evils and then support Mark Warner - not without being a complete and flagrant sellout and/or opportunisitic lying sack of shit.

I certainly don't put it past them, as my fervent Deaniac uberKossack ex-boyfriend once told me he could either support Feingold or Warner for president in 2008. Yes, Feingold OR Warner, the two most opposite candidates. This was a guy who was an ardent Deaniac and was obsessed with DailyKos and loathed the DLC (of which he lumped in John Kerry, but apparently not Mark Warner). By the way, this guy couldn't tell me enough times how he thought John Kerry wasn't a liberal. Yet he supports Warner. :crazy: So you'll have to forgive me if I don't think so highly of the much-trumpeted progressive values of these folks.

[wisteria]

31. Wasn't Warner the one who sponsored an expensive party for the

blog community? I wouldn't be surprised if some of his paid people are posting. This very subject was brought up before- the question being, should paid operatives or professional supporters be upfront when they blog and post and make people aware of their commitments to a particular candidates. It seems very misleading and dishonest not to in my opinion. It makes the whole experience phony.

[beachmom]

33. One guy, Texas somebody, has that disclaimer on his sig line

But you compare that with us. There are NO Kerry supporters online who are running his PAC or run an official website. I like that a lot. We're real netroots, they're astroturf.

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. LOL, I like that

"netroots vs astroturf"

Nice! :rofl:

[WildEyedLiberal]

37. Don't forget he paid Jerome Armstrong of myDD to whore for him

And apparently, he paid him under the guise of some sort of "business venture" to hide the amount of the transaction from FEC reports. Ask Firespirit for more details on that, she dug it up.

So in other words it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Warner is paying operatives to covertly whore for him on places like DailyKos.

[JI7]

25. this is the worst i have heard from him and confirms

that he isn't just trying to appeal to conservatives, but really is one.

this is one of the biggest issues that define what our party is about and how we are different from them. alienating the wealthy ? WTF

[Mass]

27. Already backtracking

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/09/mark_warner_abo.html

Mark Warner: About Those Tax Cuts...

Ex-VA Gov. Mark Warner (D) wants you to know: he thinks the Bush tax cuts for the richest Americans, enacted during an expensive war and with rising federal budget deficits, were "morally wrong and economically wrong" and that he would indeed support their repeal.

Warner, in an interview with The Hotline this a.m., clarified his comments Monday in Iowa, which were reported by the Des Moines Register. Warner said he did not mean to suggest that Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) was wrong to urge the repeal of those tax cuts benefiting the richest two percent of taxpayers.

...

"My comment was, we shouldn't folks' aspirations to be successful, but with success comes responsibility, and we've got to have a tax code that's fair." More Warner: "The Kerry position was right but concern is, how do you make the case to the American people?" Sometimes, said Warner, Democrats "appear as anti 'people-being-successful.' But with that success comes a sense of responsibility and fairness."

...

He is still wrong because Kerry and his campaign sold it by saying it was morally wrong and that most rich people were ready to pay. But it is remarkable to see how fast he backtracked.

[beachmom]

29. His blogger lackeys obviously reported to him that they were getting

CREAMED, that's why.

You know, in reality, I'm sure he would put together a fiscally responsible plan (I have to judge someone on past actions, and Warner was very good in Virginia in this area); my problem with him is how he is talking. He's insulting not just John Kerry but all Democrats based on premises that are false. He's talking like a Republican, and although conservatives may praise him for it, they're STILL not going to vote for him.

[karynnj]

39. It actually shows something else

That on many major political issues he doesn't have strongly held positions. This seems a case where some consultant told him this would be a good think to say to get to the right of John Kerry on taxes. In 2004, I thought and most people I read thought that Kerry was pretty much in the politically best position on this. With the rising deficit and the growing social needs as people lost insurance, asking that the top 2%, who already received a tax break should forgo additional tax cuts.

Warner has not real position on Iraq and when he first was on Road to The White House, he did not have a position on environmental issues. To me this says that he is not ready. I still wish he would have run for Senator, because the combination would have made him a really powerful competitor in the future.

[ProSense]

40. This is where the

governors' fallacy comes in. The way I see it, comparing a governorship to the presidency has its limitations. Being a governor is primarily an administrative function and many are wrapped up in the budgetary issues of their state. There are some great governors who transcend this and have a grasp of broader domestic and international policy, but I suspect the "run the government like a company," in other words the president as CEO, thinking is responsible for pushing governors. It's stupid. The president need to be more than just a CEO, although that's part of it (the administration), the comander-in-chief needs to be a leader, a diplomat and a visionary! JMO!

[Blaukraut]

30. That didn't take long, did it

But it's too late. The horse has left the barn, and his true colors showed.

[ProSense]

32. A feeble attempt

to remove his foot from his mouth!

This deserves a GD thread!

[wisteria]

34. Where does he even get the idea the Democrats are against

prosperity and achieving wealth? Isn't this covered under attaining the American Dream? Warner seems to be saying we push a socialist agenda with a system designed to discourage wealth. This idea is a backward Republican definition of Democrats. Does he even know much about our party principles?

[beachmom]

41. Actually, he's talking about himself

When he worked for the DNC in the late '70s, he was so poor he was living out of his car. And now he's a millionaire. But he's smart, went to Harvard, had that extra something plus luck that made him successful. He has GOT to take a step back and realize that the dreams he achieved are not going to happen for most of the people in this country. When he figures that out, goes back and thinks to his time of struggle, THEN he'll be ready to give a Democratic message.

Look, guys, he's young, he's screwing up big time here, but I truly think there is a liberal inside of him wanting to get out so bad . . . he'll have to have a midlife crisis, fall on his face a few times, eat some humble pie, and who knows? He may then find his voice.

Disclosure: he grew up in the town I lived in my early childhood. He was a good kid, came from a regular middle class family, and built his wealth and success completely on his own.

[wisteria]

45. Thanks for the background information. Why is it that some people

think that because they were able to make it everyone else can. I certainly respect what he has accomplished,perhaps one day it will make a great presidential story.

[WildEyedLiberal]

38. Wow, I hate to say it, but that is a total flip flop

He didn't "mean to suggest that John Kerry was wrong to urge the repeal of tax cuts"?

He didn't "suggest" that Kerry was wrong, he flat out SAID IT.

NOW he's completely flipping his position around because he took a ton of flack for it?

So not only does he parrot Republican talking points, he eagerly reverses them when he sees that they aren't popular. He's not just conservative, he's opportunisitic.

Thanks for showing us your true colors, Mark Warner. I would officially vote for Hillary or Biden in the primary over you. Not that I'll have to make that choice, thank God.

[Dr Ron]

42. Not wanting to alienatethe rich is ok, its the pandering thats the problem

"This definitively closes the question on whether he is an acceptable candidate for 08. Not alienate the rich?"

The problem isn't that he wants to attact the rich, but the way in which he is doing it. Democrats often do make a mistake of alienating not only the rich, but allfluent people and those who aspire to afluence (which includes most suburbanites, small businesspeople, etc). Warner's goal of attracting such voters is ok, but not the way in which he did it.

What is needed is to sell the taxes to those paying more based upon the value received both individually and society. What most people in my position don't think about is that we wouldn't be in a position to be making enough to be taxed more in the first place if we didn't have the infrastructure. Taxes are needed to maintain this, and maintain our ability to make money.

Tax money is needed if we want to solve the health care crisis. Even for myself, receiving a large part of my medical expenses thru professional courtesy, health care expenses are a pain. Obviously it is a far worse problem for others, but even those who would be hit by Kerry's tax increase would benefit from his plan.

Another argument which would resonate with the rich is the manner in which value of retirement plans are eroded by inflation due to the size of the deficit.

There are many ways to attract the rich but you can't avoid the truth out of fear of alienating them either. We already have Republicans for those who believe in Voodoo Economics and think we can spend whatever Bush wants while cutting taxes without ultimately paying a price.

[paulk]

43. what an odd thing for a Democrat to say

The Democratic Party really needs to get united behind a repeal of the Bush tax cuts...

Was this some kind of trial balloon?

If so, it didn't float very far.

[kerrygoddess]

44. LOL!

he's an idiot!