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There may be no Torture policy bill this week

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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 09:36 PM
Original message
There may be no Torture policy bill this week
The Senate is still stuck on the Secure Fence Act and they haven't even taken the cloture vote on it yet. Once they take a cloture vote, they still have 30 hours to debate it. The Bill on Detainee Rights and on what is or isn't torture isn't even on the calendar yet. This Senate adjourns till after the November elections this week on either Friday or Saturday.

The reason we haven't heard much from the Dems is that this might not get to the floor until after the fall elections. It sure looks to me like the Senate is running out of time. I can't see how they can resolve the Secure Fence Act and then squeeze in the bill on something as complex as detainee rights and how to define torture in about 24 hours. (Ahm, you could delay this thing with procedural motions alone, without even breaking a sweat or risking a filibuster.)

Ahm, I am beginning to think that this thing ain't gonna see the light of day until Nov. Frist probably has a cloture vote scheduled for tomorrow, but there is not way he could submit the Detainee rights bill and then get cloture and then a vote before adjournment.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. The torture bill has been filed as an amendment to the Fence bill
I think. I am not sure how they intend to vote on that, though.

33. S.AMDT.5038 to H.R.6061 To establish military commissions.
Sponsor: Sen Frist, William H. (introduced 9/25/2006) Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 9/25/2006 Senate amendment proposed (on the floor)
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I just looked at it, Mass, and I come to the same conclusion as you
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 10:20 PM by beachmom
It looks like the torture bill is now an amendment and will be debated tomorrow at 9:30 AM. It looks like the same bill exactly.

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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's what I was beginning to think when the "final language"
still hadn't been completed until, what, late yesterday. I mean, even without the Fence bill, I don't see how you could properly debate that bill in two days, considering Senators have barely had time to read it.

Leahy has come out against it, or at least has called for more hearings, and Feingold was in Philly yesterday, saying talk of a filibuster was "premature".

With the Senate how it is, you may be right with your assessment.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. Blogger met with Feingold. He is definitely against bill:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/9/25/15050/3108

(I know, yuck, booman, but that's the source)


We spent the majority of the rest of our time discussing the NSA and detainee bills that are being debated in DC this week. It's fair to say that Feingold's position on these bills is absolutely synonymous with the greater blogosphere's position. That is to say, he sees them as horrible and dangerous bills. He plans to try a few procedural moves to stall the bills. He'd like to see them delayed until after the election. As far as the mood of his colleagues, he said he will know more shortly. He needs to discuss matters with a few key Senators. He noted that Arlen Specter wants to hold a hearing this week on habeus corpus and wondered whether the bills can actually be voted on by Friday. The GOP wants to adjourn on Friday and start the campaign.

They either want to pass these bills, or they want to campaign on Democratic obstruction. Obviously, the bills are horrid enough that we must try to stop them and take the consequences. Whether the Dems will do that remains to be seen. For now, they seem to be focusing on delay, not filibustering.




Question: can it be delayed if it's now an amendment on that Fence bill?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I would wait and see. There is a lot of confusion between the 3 bills
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 10:39 PM by Mass
and there is no reference in this post of which bill Feingold is talking about. I would expect him to be against the compromise bill, but I have not seen or heard anything coming from him that says that. Same thing for the NSA bill: what bill are we talking about: Specter (all democrats are against it and voted against it in committee, or Feinstein-Specter, that all Democrats, including Feingold, support).

(blogger attribute a lot to Feingold. dailykos has a post that claims he is a co-sponsor of the Boxer-Dodd HAVA modification, with no source about that).

It seems to me there is a lot of offuscation coming from Democrats on this subject and I think we should wait and see how they vote before we decide who the good guys are.

It may also be a good idea to tell all these guys, starting by Reid, that we oppose THE COMPROMISE BILL.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. That's been the problem from the start
The Democrats said little, while McCain/Warner/Graham fought with Bush. But one can't seem to get an answer on the Compromise Bill either.

You're right -- it comes down to the votes.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Bad news - According to the NYTimes, the Democrats are not going
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 10:48 PM by Mass
to block the bill, though they are worried.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/27/washington/27detain.html?hp&ex=1159329600&en=6a4643fc93717be9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Democrats, who have found themselves on the losing end of the national security debate the past two national elections, said the changes to the bill had not yet reached a level that would cause them to try to block it altogether.

“We want to do this,” said Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader. “And we want to do it in compliance with the direction from the Supreme Court. We want to do it in compliance with the Constitution.”


F*ck Clinton, who changed the focus from the torture bill to his big ego, and the bloggers, who followed. :smoke:
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Okay, maybe it's time to go to bed.
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 10:54 PM by beachmom
Looks like by the end of the week, ANY of us could be taken away with no questions asked and no recourse. But Reid and the Democrats (not sure which) have decided to "keep their powder dry". I guess I sound like the whiners on GD tonight, but this was IMPORTANT, and now we've lost before the battle has begun.

Edited to add: F*** Reid, too. Does the guy GET what's going on here?

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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The whiners on GD were too busy congratulating Clinton to actually try
Edited on Tue Sep-26-06 10:52 PM by Mass
to organize on this issue.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The real hero blogger was KarenDC
She actually had a good thread going encouraging people to call their senators after her liveblog of the hearing. But one person can't do this alone.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Not to mention the angry Clinton
hid the NIE story that is far more important. On torture, it's amazing so few Democrats seem to have said anything. Has anyone other than Leahy or Kerry said anything to a non blogger source. (One Dkos person said Clinton did unequivacally unlike Kerry - but 90% of what he posted in his posts was inaccurate.)
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. did you see the Peter Canellos column in today's Globe?
Congress heads into torture debate blind

WASHINGTON -- This week's congressional debate over torture policy will be an important benchmark in the war on terrorism. But because of the Bush administration's restrictive policy on sharing classified information with Congress, very few of the people engaged in the debate will know what they're talking about.

This doesn't seem to bother President Bush. While the administration contends that limiting the number of people being briefed is necessary to reduce chances of a leak, it also suits his administration's political aims.

The administration has tried to occupy as much of the fall campaign season as possible with discussion of terrorism -- the Republican Party's strongest issue -- as opposed to the Iraq war, which has become a potent Democratic Party issue. But while it dominates the national stage with tough talk about terrorism, the administration doesn't want actual scrutiny of its interrogation practices.

After all, even one concrete example could change the tenor of the debate. Every American has his or her own line to draw on what constitutes inhuman treatment: Simulated drowning? Threats of rape of a suspect's loved ones? Electric shock?

In addition, specialists in interrogation would be able to weigh in on which techniques are effective, and which are merely brutal, leading to false confessions.

But with no actual practices to discuss, any opposition will be greatly muted. Arguing that a certain practice is torturous or ineffective doesn't really provoke much outrage if no one can say whether the practice is for real. And opponents will naturally be wary of drawing too many dire hypotheticals, for fear of appearing to malign the CIA. It would be like raising the possibility of grotesque torture by the US Army before Abu Ghraib: Patriotic Americans don't want to think ill of their protectors.

Bush chose the time and place for the torture debate when he announced, shortly after Labor Day, the existence of a secret CIA interrogation program that uses harsh techniques that might violate some standards of inhuman treatment.

The president said he was fearful that the rules of evidence in terrorism trials would require prosecutors to say how they had obtained the evidence against the defendants, and that details of the aggressive interrogation techniques could leak out. He wants Congress to pass rules ensuring the secrecy of coerced evidence at terrorism trials.

He also wants Congress to make sure that no CIA interrogator can be prosecuted for war crimes, except within certain categories of offenses, such as sexual assault or mutilation, among many others.

But only the members of the House and Senate intelligence committees and a few others will know if these categories cover any of the CIA practices, or if any brutal techniques currently in use are not covered. The administration has granted briefings to members of the intelligence committees, leaders of both parties, and a few other key negotiators, totaling less than 10 percent of Congress.

The national security adviser, Stephen J. Hadley, has warned that briefings must be strictly limited to prevent leaks of any interrogation tactics.

But evidence suggests that the administration makes some of its briefing decisions based on political concerns, not national security. For instance, The Boston Globe reported that when the administration wanted to cut a deal with two Republican senators, John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, it gave them special access to details, even though neither would have been briefed under the regular rules. Democratic critics have not been given the same information.

Congressional leaders have made only token gestures of demanding briefings by the administration. And the Globe reported over the summer that only about a dozen members of Congress had availed themselves of the opportunity to read the national intelligence bill, which outlines the Bush administration's policies in the war on terrorism.

Many members told the Globe that they didn't read the bill because they would then be barred from discussing it, making any debate impossible.

But watchdog groups have suggested that no debate -- or a debate behind closed doors, with security rules in place -- might well be preferable to a debate that offers only a false appearance of congressional oversight.

Having no debate indicates -- correctly -- that the administration is on its own in deciding which interrogation techniques are lawful. Having a debate conveys the impression that the constitutional system of checks and balances is in operation. But with most members left in the dark, so is the constitutional system.

Peter S. Canellos is the Globe's Washington bureau chief. National Perspective is his weekly analysis of events in the capital and beyond.


Just completely weird and creepy. And I'm with you on Clinton. Himself first, in everything.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Make no mistake what this bill is about, people
From Andrew:

The truly disturbing part is that the only criterion for detaining anyone without charges - citizen or non-citizen, at home or anywhere in the world - is the president's discretion. If Rumsfeld decides you're an enemy combatant, you can be whisked away into a black hole, tortured, or have to prove your innocence in a military commission while he insists on your guilt. The "battlefield" is everywhere; and the war is endless. This is not, to put it mildly, what the founding fathers had in mind. It is one of the darkest hours for Western liberty in a very long time. And most conservatives are cheering. Watching habeas corpus go down the plughole is not something I ever thought I would have to contemplate. Well done, Osama. You won this one big time.




Yes, I'm mad at Harry Reid. But you know what? What about the Libertarians in the Republican party? This is their WORST nightmare!! How can they vote for it? This is not just a liberal issue. This is about America, and trying to destroy our values. I just don't understand why there is no outrage.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-26-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. chilling words:
"the president's discretion"

He has no discretion.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Beachmom, I saw Andrew Sullivan on Anderson Cooper tonight
and I have to say, he was very passionately against this torture bill. Anderson even said he sounded like a liberal. His appearance tonight has made me rethink my opinion of him.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-27-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. You have to take it issue by issue with Andrew
Andrew was early and loud against the torture, so I think he deserves respect for his passion on fighting this evil. But, he is a conservative in his ideology. And he hates Kerry and the Democrats. He thinks the Democrats are "cowards" on this issue. I'm withholding judgment until the end, but so far, with Harry Reid's remarks, it's not looking good.
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