I think some of the unreasonable deanies( not "ours")

[saracat]

are about to cause real havoc. You can't even agree with them! I said on a post that Clinton was the more experienced campaigner of the two men and they became unglued! I would think that was obvious. They think Clinton and Dean are comparable because they were both Governors from small states. Well, that is about ALL they have in commom! And I like Dean.Interesting these are the same people who think it is okay to trash Kerry ,now want perfect unity in regard to Dean! I sure hope the Doctor' can unify everyone , cause these people are hard cases. It isn't enough that you support Dean. You have to buy into their perception of him!

[NYCGirl]

1. I don't believe I ever became unglued, nor did I ever trash Kerry. NT

[angrydemocrat]

2. It will be these same people that are coming unglued now

That will be giving him hell once he gets started doing his job. Wait and see because the first time he does something they don't like he will be on their shit list like Kerry and others. Trust me it will happen because although right now he can't do no wrong to them it will be a matter of time before that changes. Then they will start with someone else. There is nothing wrong with Dean and he will make a good chair but there are people that in politics better and they are fooling themselves to think otherwise. But Dean will do a good job.

[saracat]

3. I just find it amazing that many of them are acting as though

this DNC Chair election is a validation of the radical point of view that their guy would have been a better candidate. Shoot, DNC Chair used to be just a fairly meaningless partisan appointment. I t doesn't even have that much power attached to it. It wasn't even truly "voted" on! Dean turned this into a race and good for him. But Dean didn't win the primaries because people didn't vote for him. People did vote for Kerry.
There is this perception that this now proves Dean was "electable" and Kerry wasn't.It is like the primaries all over again.
I think Dean will do a great job. I think he can bring some excitement to the Party. But I do fear, and I supported his chair campaign, that Dean will revert to his moderate, almost conservative roots. I wonder if some of these people will notice, or will they continue to reinvent the Dean reality?

[elshiva]

4. In the end the Deaniacs will do more good than

harm. Maybe some "Deaniacs" on DU are lefty freepers, but Deaniacs in general are the fundraising, grassroots base of the party.
Yes, I think you are definitely right to say Clinton has more experience than Dean, as a governor AND president for 8 yrs, LOL! Goodness me some rapid freeper must have misread "more experienced" for "Clinton's a better Dem than Dean," and I'm sorry, no Deaniac in their right mind's going to say that. However, the Doctor himself likes Clinton as a person and as a politician.

[saracat]

5. My best friend is an ardent Deaniac, and

we never have to have the silly conversations that some of these people have. She really likes Dean, and thought Kerry was "okay" but she thinks the Doctor would be ashamed of these people. The interesting thing to me is that philosophicaly, I am probably closer to these people than they think. I am not a moderate Dem, and I don't like the DLC. But because I see the Dr. for what he is, and still like him, I must be evil! I don't understand and never will, why some find it impossible to like both these men!

[elshiva]

7. I'm in love with both the Doctor and JK as

politicians and people. I know their political views are about the same.
It is shameful that some "Deaniacs" are lefty freepers who hate on good Dems like JK and his followers.
It's sorta like the fundies and Jesus, taking something hateful out of good message. It's like the old prayer: "Jesus, save me from some of your followers."

[LittleClarkie]

8. Some of them even have it in their sigs: Dean or Green

That says something.

I'm cool with several of them, and I'm even getting used to the Mad One. It's just the smug ones who are on constant alert for sabotage to "their guy" that are getting annoying now. Like John Bircher's they see Dean hate everywhere. But they are a vocal minority.

I feel the same about one or two of the Clarkies and one Kerrycrat who go on little anti-Dean tirades and hold up Clark or Kerry as the be all end all. I do appreciate folk who see the faults and love these guys with their eyes open. It's like watching several little cults of personality. All the primary candidates seem to have those one or two followers who are just a touch too ... fervent.

[elshiva]

9. "Dean or Green"

Dean would not support that at all. He wants a Dem majority. I think of him as a liberal centrist, liberal but a centrist just the same.

[saracat]

10. great description!

[elshiva]

12. Thank you, saracat! Yes the liberal centrist....

I cannot seem to put it to words. He seems liberal on gay rights and IWR, but he had a conservative record as a governor.

[TayTay]

6. It will get interesting when reality sets in

Dr. Dean is going to be the Chair of the Democratic Party. This means he is going to have to exercise his political skills in support of getting more Dems involved in the grassroots of the party and still answer to the multitudes of bosses he will have in the actual elected Reps of the party. There will be conflicts and he will have to compromise. This is the forgotten art of politics, the bringing together of disparate groups in an effort to find common ground. That means that no one gets everything they want, they learn to compromise in order to achieve a common goal. This seems antithecal to the current attitudes of some of Dr. Dean's followers. There will be perceptions problems. I anticpate the following:

1. Iowa and New Hampshire are unlikely to be unseated as the first caucus and primary states for 2008. There are already too many people running for Pres in 2008 to move these. 2012 is up for grabs. There are many Dean followers who anticipate these primaries moving and I do not believe the good Dr. will do so. (His bosses in the Dem Party will strongly object and they can bring much pressure to bear on this. So can fundraisers who would suddenly 'dry up' funds. And so forth.)

2. Money will always be the mother's milk of politics. The internet arrived in 2004 as a major source of money, but it is not the only source. There will be certain candidates who have large war chests who can give some of this money away to needy candidates in early primary states and curry favor with local candidates. (Why, I heard of one '08 possible who has a war chest somewhere north of $14 million already. Imagine that.) This is, of course, vital in early primary states as it gets you local endorsements all sown up nice and early. Dr. Dean can help to put more money into play and he can help clean up some of the attrocious local state committees that have their collective heads up their collectives arses. But he cannot clean up the money problem all by his little lonesome. And this will engender major fights and major bad feelings as many egos get stepped on. This will be a major test of the good Dr's political skills, and the patience of hs followers.

3. Dr. Dean must produce results in 2006. The knives are always out in politics and one person's failure is another person's opportunity. Dr. Dean must come through with some seat gains in state and national elections in 2006. If he does this, he will truly be a great and powerful Chair. To do this, he will have to work closely and carefully with the actual elected Dems in Congress and the potentials out there in the great as-yet-unannounced. (They set policy, he can deal with the organizational problems.) Should '06 be a neutral or bad year for Dems, it will be very bad for Dr. Dean. The stakes here are very high and there isn't a whole lot of margin for error. Dems are frustrated and don't want any more 'rebuilding' years. They want to win and win now.

Sounds like fun! Good luck! Have fun storming the castle!

[saracat]

11. Superb analysis Tay, Tay!

You are much better than Dem Strategist! Remember them? They never did unmask! Wonder if it was Bob Schrum?

[TayTay]

13. I want Dr. Dean to succeed.

I want it really, really badly. I just hope that people are aware of how tough this is going to be. I worry that he won't get credit for some of the stuff he is going to do because it will be under the radar and I worry that he will have to take a lot of grief from people for the highly visible things he does that might cause dissension in the ranks. It's not fair. People should realize that the Dems are in a real hole and it is going to take much time, effort, unity and, yes, money to get out of it. I sincerely wish him all the luck in the world, for my own selfish sake and for the sake of the country. In all honesty, I will be praying for him to make it all work.

[paulk]

14. a fascinating thread from today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3073111


I think a lot of Dean's more ardent supporters are in for a big surprise.
I hope to god that Dean was the right choice - like you said - there's no room for error.

[Firespirit]

15. If I recall correctly...

During the election there were people who wanted Dean to be Chair even if Kerry became president. They were saying that it was truly the right position for him, and that the presidency wouldn't have been. I hope they're right. I don't harbor any "revenge" wishes and do not want Dean to self-destruct, because this time if he self-destructs, he's taking lots of people down with him.

As far as the "crazy ones" are concerned, I don't know, they really seem to be more of a minor irritation than an actual threat. They're loud and everything, but I can't believe they'd have very much real influence. At least, I hope not. Dean will have to do some politically smart things that they don't like (although I don't mean kissing up to the GOP). It would be nice if they would come to understand, through the actions of their hero, that sometimes public figures have to choose the politically smart action over the "perfectly pure" idealistically motivated action, and would then lighten up on other politicians. I'm not going to get my hopes up for this, but it would be nice to see it happen.

All that said, there is a distinct scenario that alarms me, one that does depend on certain things falling into place, but that doesn't seem impossible or even improbable. Things could get really ugly, and divisive, and harmful to the party, if Kerry and Hillary both run--and I don't think that the ugliness would be coming from Kerry's side. Kerry'll have his war chest and Mrs. Clinton will have the "Clinton machine" behind her. Both are forces to be reckoned with in terms of their following. I hope Dean can do something to defuse that situation if it looks like it's going to occur.

[TayTay]

16. There is a lot of time between now and then.

Something tells me that events will transpire between now and 2007 that will take care of this. (Just a feeling.) And if not, well, we shall see. It would be an interesting struggle. Kerry will have to differentiate himself from Mrs. Clinton with different voting patterns and different political positioning.

You know, I sometimes wonder what another run for Kerry will cost him. All the indicators show that people liked him more, the more he opened up to them. (The concession speech was remarkable and so was the commentary on it. People really liked it and the obvious emotion Kerry showed in it. ) If more emotion is called for in order to achieve success, I wonder what that will cost a person who keeps a part of himself to himself. Another run would have to entail a more emotional appeal. People will already know he is smart and capable. (They knew that from the revelatory debate performance.) But people will want to see into him a bit more and I wonder what that will cost. I really do.

[Firespirit]

17. "Events will transpire."

Not sure what you're referring to, but it's OK if it's nothing in particular... I have something in mind too; there is "something" that could potentially happen that would make an instant frontrunner if the person in question wanted to run.

I guess I'm a little irritated that the Clinton people still have so much power within the party. His advice, for instance, is treated as gospel, as if it's always completely 100% sound. Granted he was a good strategist, but one can't help but admit that he made some really bad decisions at times, and anyway there are others within the party who are intelligent and can make good decisions, not just him. Maybe I'm out of the loop on this, and it's just me, but I can't believe that it would invigorate the party for the "old guard" to have that much power still.

[TayTay]

18. Not meant in any mysterious way

Who knew that 9/11 would happen? There will be other events that will happen and that will shape the race in 2008 (well, the race starts now. Sigh! The permanent campaign. I knew it would come to this. Everybody already getting invites to come and speak in Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina. Now there are no breathers in campaigns, just interruptions where voters vote, then it all starts up again. No rest for the weary.)

I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop on the last election and the fraudulent practicies that went on. If that ever does come out (yeah, right like the MSM will ever report on that) then Kerry will be a wronged man and he will have much more standing to run again. We shall see. I still do wonder what he will do and say to differentiate a new race from an old one and what it will cost him.

[ginnyinWI]

19. I've thought of that, too

There needs to be, in the public mind, some justification for JK to be running again, after he "had his chance" already, so to speak. Finding out that he should have been the one will do that. Otherwise it will be an uphill battle. Another thing is, would he be competing with John Edwards again, and how would that look to the public? Well, as we all are saying, it is way too early to really know what will happen. Let's focus on the mid-terms. A Kerry administration would need more Dems on the hill to be the most effective, anyway.

[TayTay]

20. ANd Gore might run again

Imagine that: Kerry, Edwards, Gore and Hillary Clinton. A free-for-all. Thank goodness the Rethugs don't have a front-runner yet. It is going to get real interesting.

[Firespirit]

21. That *is* what I hinted at...

I didn't want to say it explicitly because it looks like I'm totally obsessed, but that's exactly what I was referring to. There are many potential scandals that could make life, ah, difficult for the Bushies, but this is the one that would most help Kerry personally. If it's shown that he ought to be running for his second term, then yeah, it's looking pretty good. Otherwise it's not impossible, but definitely harder.

Doesn't make a difference as far as my presidential preference goes, nor will it affect election reform legislation, but for his sake I hope it's proven.

I just hope that (1) the evidence isn't destroyed and they--meaning whoever, Rep. Conyers and his people, probably--can draw a conclusion, and (2) that they force someone to let them into the computers, including DREs, because that is where any result-changing fraud would have taken place. I'm pretty sure NM was stolen--there is good evidence that many of the DRE machines there were "pre-set" to Bush so that he got undervotes as well as his own votes, and that it was more difficult than it ought to be to change the "pre-set" candidate to someone else. OH is obviously a possibility, although there has been a LOT of tampering with the equipment and I hope it isn't corrupted beyond recall. (Even Cam Kerry said that he figured they'd lost thousands of votes there as a result of various kinds of fraud.) There's also the chance of hanky-panky in FL, although I'd say that's the least likely of the three to have been actually flipped.

But if it ends up being "we can't prove anything because the evidence is destroyed/screwed up/'Diebold's intellectual property'," then it will be buried.

[ginnyinWI]

23. no it's not unreasonable to be thinking it

not at all. I think most of us do believe there is yet more to come of this story. It's hard to sit here and not be able to do anything about it. But Kerry, being the kind of person that he is, is not likely to just let it pass. So we'll see.
:tinfoilhat:

Funny how it came out eventually that Gore did win Florida, but nothing was made of that in the press. I don't think most people even know it. Maybe because it was, I think, a group of reporters who did the recount, and it wasn't official? Or we can blame the cowardly media.
:shrug:

[Corey_Baker08]

22. Disgrunteld Deaniacs suck

I myself am a Kerrycat, always have been and always will be, but i personally dont mind Deaniacs but I absolutes hate the Disgruntled Deaniacs who blame Kerry for everything....