"We have to have the fight."

[TayTay]

I did a quick (and probably flawed) transcription of that interview on the johnkerry.com site from the Braude and Eagan radio show. I found this most remarkable.

Marjory Eagan: Many of us voted Democratic in the last election because we were very, very upset about the way the war was going. Now we got this non-binding resolution and you sort of feel like, gee, is that all there is?... There's got to be more. How do we get there?

Sen. Kerry: There does have to be more, and I couldn't agree with you more. We're going to have a debate and we will have a vote on binding resolutions. We will not win because we don't have the votes in the Congress yet. So, the bottom line is, that we will sharpen the debate as we go into the '08 election and Americans are going to have to take their passion on this issue to the polls again and hopefully we win a President and we win more Senators in the Congress and more Senators that will vote so we have 60 votes.

Jim Braude: Senator, one of the things you said to me the other day that I am embarrassed I hadn't thought about before, I was talking to you about how you couldn't even get 60 votes on a non-binding resolution, which is what you need to break a filibuster and you made the point that I was embarrassed that I didn't realize, even if you had 60 votes, a serious binding resolution or binding law is going to be, is going to be vetoed by the President which means that you need 67 votes.

Kerry: That's exactly right

Braude: So what it sounds like what you're saying is, quite overtly, is that nothing is going to happen until '08.

Kerry: I am saying it overtly. This President will veto whatever it is we do, but we have to have the fight and we have to have to do everything in our power to be able to change the attitude of people in the country and the debate, hopefully, sharpens the arguments and gives people a sense of what's really at stake.

What a remarkable interview. This raises all kinds of thoughts, don't you think.

[MH1]

1. That was a great interview, with many excellent points.

I thought that was one of the best interviews I've heard him do. But then, I say that after most of them!

[TayTay]

3. He does give a thoughtful interview

But there was something else there on this. I like the frank admission that this is no six week fight, this is a 'in it for the long-haul thing.' I wondered who was getting psyched up for that, the Senator or his constituents. (Or both.) Hmmmmmmm.

[europegirl4jfk]

6. He can only make this frank admission....

because he isn't running for president. I like this frankly speaking Kerry much more than the presidential candidate who always has to be careful about his speech. That's the same with the "Fox episode". Can you imagine what the reaction to it would have been if Kerry were running? Honestly, I'm glad he isn't and can say now what he really thinks.

[ProSense]

2. Terrific interview!

Thanks for the snip transcript. That's very thought-provoking indeed.

[sandnsea]

4. Thanks Tay

I've been wondering what to write about setadeadline because I've known there wasn't much that could come from it, to be honest with ones self. But now I see it. It's about the fight. We're going to have to get people to understand those numbers, what they mean, and fight anyway.

[TayTay]

5. It is about the fight.

This fight is also about much more than just Iraq.

Look at this from the Vietnam timeline site: http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1965.html

1966

January 31, 1966- Senator Robert F. Kennedy criticizes President Johnson's decision to resume the bombing, stating that the U.S. may be headed "on a road from which there is no turning back, a road that leads to catastrophe for all mankind." His comments infuriate the President.

February 1966 - The Senate Foreign Relations Committee, chaired by Sen. J. William Fulbright, holds televised hearings examining America's policy in Vietnam. Appearing before the committee, Defense Secretary McNamara states that U.S. objectives in Vietnam are "not to destroy or overthrow the Communist government of North Vietnam. They are limited to the destruction of the insurrection and aggression directed by North Vietnamese against the political institutions of South Vietnam."

February 3, 1966 - Influential newspaper columnist Walter Lippmann lambastes President Johnson's strategy in Vietnam, stating, "Gestures, propaganda, public relations and bombing and more bombing will not work." Lippmann predicts Vietnam will divide America as combat causalities mount.

1971

March 29, 1971 - Lt. William Calley is found guilty of the murder of 22 My Lai civilians. He is sentenced to life imprisonment with hard labor, however, the sentence is later reduced to 20 years, then 10 years. Out of 16 military personnel charged with offenses concerning the My Lai massacre, only five were actually court-martialed, and only Calley was ever found guilty.

April 1, 1971 - President Nixon orders Calley released pending his appeal.

April 19, 1971 - 'Vietnam Veterans Against the War' begin a week of nationwide protests.

April 24, 1971 - Another mass demonstration is held in Washington attracting nearly 200,000.

April 29, 1971 - Total American deaths in Vietnam surpass 45,000.

April 30, 1971 - The last U.S. Marine combat units depart Vietnam.

May 3-5 - A mass arrest of 12,000 protesters occurs in Washington.

June 1971 - During a college commencement speech, Senator Mike Mansfield labels the Vietnam war "a tragic mistake."

June 13, 1971 - The New York Times begins publication of the 'Pentagon Papers,' a secret Defense Department archive of the paperwork involved in decisions made by previous White House administrations concerning Vietnam. Publication of the classified documents infuriates President Nixon.

1973

March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam as President Nixon declares "the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come."

America's longest war, and its first defeat, thus concludes. During 15 years of military involvement, over 2 million Americans served in Vietnam with 500,000 seeing actual combat. 47,244 were killed in action, including 8000 airmen. There were 10,446 non-combat deaths. 153,329 were seriously wounded, including 10,000 amputees. Over 2400 American POWs/MIAs were unaccounted for as of 1973.

April 1973 - President Nixon and President Thieu meet at San Clemente, California. Nixon renews his earlier secret pledge to respond militarily if North Vietnam violates the peace agreement.

April 1, 1973 - Captain Robert White, the last known American POW is released.

April 30, 1973 - The Watergate scandal results in the resignation of top Nixon aides H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman.

June 19, 1973 - The U.S. Congress passes the Case-Church Amendment which forbids any further U.S. military involvement in Southeast Asia, effective August 15, 1973. The veto-proof vote is 278-124 in the House and 64-26 in the Senate.

The Amendment paves the way for North Vietnam to wage yet another invasion of the South, this time without fear of U.S. bombing.

June 24, 1973 - Graham Martin becomes the new U.S. ambassador to South Vietnam.

July 1973 - The U.S. Navy removes mines from ports in North Vietnam which had been installed during Operation Linebacker.

July 16, 1973 - The U.S. Senate Armed Forces Committee begins hearings into the secret bombing of Cambodia during 1969-70.

July 17, 1973 - Secretary of Defense James Schlesinger testifies before the Armed Forces Committee that 3500 bombing raids were launched into Cambodia to protect American troops by targeting NVA positions. The extent of Nixon's secret bombing campaign angers many in Congress and results in the first call for Nixon's impeachment.

August 14, 1973 - U.S. bombing activities in Cambodia are halted in accordance with the Congressional ban resulting from the Case-Church amendment.

1975

April 23, 1975 - 100,000 NVA soldiers advance on Saigon which is now overflowing with refugees. On this same day, President Ford gives a speech at Tulane University stating the conflict in Vietnam is "a war that is finished as far as America is concerned."

April 27, 1975 - Saigon is encircled. 30,000 South Vietnamese soldiers are inside the city but are leaderless. NVA fire rockets into downtown civilian areas as the city erupts into chaos and widespread looting.

April 28, 1975 - 'Neutralist' General Duong Van "Big" Minh becomes the new president of South Vietnam and appeals for a cease-fire. His appeal is ignored.

April 29, 1975 - NVA shell Tan Son Nhut air base in Saigon, killing two U.S. Marines at the compound gate. Conditions then deteriorate as South Vietnamese civilians loot the air base. President Ford now orders Operation Frequent Wind, the helicopter evacuation of 7000 Americans and South Vietnamese from Saigon, which begins with the radio broadcast of the song "White Christmas" as a pre-arraigned code signal.

At Tan Son Nhut, frantic civilians begin swarming the helicopters. The evacuation is then shifted to the walled-in American embassy, which is secured by U.S. Marines in full combat gear. But the scene there also deteriorates, as thousands of civilians attempt to get into the compound.

Three U.S. aircraft carriers stand by off the coast of Vietnam to handle incoming Americans and South Vietnamese refugees. Many South Vietnamese pilots also land on the carriers, flying American-made helicopters which are then pushed overboard to make room for more arrivals. Filmed footage of the $250,000 choppers being tossed into the sea becomes an enduring image of the war's end.

April 30, 1975 - At 8:35 a.m., the last Americans, ten Marines from the embassy, depart Saigon, concluding the United States presence in Vietnam. North Vietnamese troops pour into Saigon and encounter little resistance. By 11 a.m., the red and blue Viet Cong flag flies from the presidential palace. President Minh broadcasts a message of unconditional surrender. The war is over.

How long will it take this time? What lessons can we learn and will we ever learn them or will we have another immoral 'war of choice' in another 20 years? What is the role of Congress in declaring war and how should the legislative branch respond when the President decideds to lie, cheat, steal and frame his way into a war? What are the limits of power here, just what are the limits of power?

[beachmom]

9. Thanks for the timeline, Tay. Frankly, I am tired of the whining

from lib bloggers about "weakling" Democrats, like if only they got a spine tomorrow the war would be over. Kerry was talking about dealing with his electoral loss when he said this, but it's true of ending the war, too: one foot in front of the other. As long as we're moving in the right direction, that's what needs to happen. And we need more Democratic (anti-war) members of the Senate elected in '08. Do you think he can help out other races in '08, or will he mostly just concentrate on his own? If he decided to do a smaller version of what he did in '06, I would definitely donate to his PAC for that -- he has excellent judgment and instincts as to who has a chance.

I'm not excusing Democrats here. I'm just wondering what the best approach is in persuading them that they need to move in the direction with real resolutions in ending this war.

[TayTay]

10. IMHO, that is exactly what he will be doing

That is the fight. We must have more people in the Congress who actually understand what the use and misuse of power is all about. I would be shocked if Sen. Kerry doesn't do again what he did in 2006, help elect good Democrats who have strong feelings about what a Senator should do and should stand for, as in your new Senator, Jim Webb.

[karynnj]

15. I got a call asking for money from his Senate campaign

I assume that he may help others as well. The lady was great and happy when I said there was no one in government I support more.

[blm]

7. This would be a good GDP post to those who say we can't have this battle yet.

We will never get to the place we need to be in 2008 if we don't stay in BushInc's face with all the battles we NEED to have that help inform the American people and voting public.

[TayTay]

8. I think it would make a great DKos post

and will later on tonight. (I have a heavy work sched today plus I want to track a hearing. However, I can do this and make it more than just a list of dates with some application of time and, most especially, editing. )

[MH1]

11. Not just BushInc - people need to be working on getting to the number 67

I think JK is right - it won't happen. But I would love to be proved wrong - and I have no doubt he would also love to be proved wrong.

The reason I was so frustrated with the VFP's targeting of Kerry last week was because I think Kerry is the wrong target. Work on the guys who have NOT come out strongly against the war.

When we are at least close to 67 people in the Senate who really understand that their political life - or their conscience, whichever works - depends on ending the war, THEN lets talk about tactics - do we cut funding, do we micromanage force numbers, do we do something like Murtha's bill? But if we don't have the support, hammering good people like Kerry who share our goal, is just wasted effort. Take it to the people who need to be convinced. That - mostly - means converting some more Republicans. If activists aren't willing to work on that angle, then imo, they aren't really working to end the war.

[MH1]

12. I should add

that I think the work to turn more Senators begins with working on those Senator's constituents.

Massachusetts is not where the fight is.

[TayTay]

13. But it is where the Senator's constituents live

This state has a large concentration of people who are 'liberal' and who are vocal about their issues. This is an expected part of the discussion here.

See this:

April 2: This day at law ~ Massachusetts enacted Vietnam antiwar bill
Bernard Hibbitts at 4/2/2004 12:01:13 AM

On April 2, 1970, the Governor of Massachusetts signed into law an anti-Vietnam War bill providing that no inhabitant of Massachusetts inducted into or serving in the armed forces "shall be required to serve" abroad in an armed hostility that had not been declared a war by Congress under Article I, Section 8, clause 11 of the United States Constitution. Supporters of the legislation hoped that the US Supreme Court would seize on the obvious conflict that the bill created between state and federal law and would rule on the constitutionality of the Vietnam War itself, but the Court refused to exercise original jurisdiction, forcing the case into the lower federal courts. See Anthony D'Amato, Massachusetts In The Federal Courts: The Constitutionality Of The Vietnam War , 4 Journal of Law Reform (1970). http://anthonydamato.law.northwestern.edu/Adobefiles/A70c-Mass.pdf

If Massachusetts was so firmly against this war then why this action by this prominent person?

What Happened (May 1971)

http://www.lexingtonbattlegreen1971.com/lexington1971.html

On Memorial Day Weekend of that year, the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, again led by John Kerry, decided to create another visual, symbolic protest against the Vietnam War by retracing the April 19, 1775, route taken by Paul Rever from Boston to Concord (actually, Revere made it only to the outskirts of Lexington) - but the veterans were going to do it in reverse. They spent their first night in a bivouac at the National Park in Concord. During the day they practiced "guerilla" theater in Concord to "bring the war home." In Lexington the Board of Selectmen did not permit them to do "guerilla" theater. They instructed the veterans to walk into town single file. They unanimously voted to deny them the right to stay on the Lexington Battle Green.

All afternoon Saturday Lexington residents swarmed onto the Green. The day was a clamor of discussions and debates with clergy, townspeople and members of the town government that lasted into the evening hours. After nightfall, there were still hundreds of people on the Green. Many townspeople chose to find sleeping bags and spend the night. Upon instructions of the Board of Selectmen, the police chief ordered everyone to leave the Green. At 3 A.M. on Sunday morning 458 veterans and townspeople were arrested and taken by school buses to be jailed at the Public Works garage on Bedford Street. Later that morning, those arrested were again taken in school buses to a special Sunday session of the Concord District Court where most pled guilty to disobeying a town bylaw and were fined $5, "the cost of a night's lodging," as Concord Court Judge John Forte put it.

Who is John Kerry? Why did he get arrested that day in an act of civil disobedience? What was the point if Massachusetts was already so anti-war as to declare it illegal to force Massachusetts citizens to serve in that war against their will? What is his history in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts as regards protests against wars deemed immoral? Do the citizens of the Commonwealth have a right to do what the Senator did himself many years ago, stage demonstrations in front of friendly crowds in actions designed to get attention for their cause? Even in Massachusetts.

*This Senator* has a unique history that every voter in the Commonwealth is aware of and knows. That cuts all ways, and sometimes makes things more difficult. That is just how it is here.

[MH1]

14. Well, I messed that post up

It's not that there is no point in demonstrating in Mass. It's that they should be focusing on turning public opinion and those members of Congress who are not yet firmly against the war. It is appropriate that some of that be done in their home state. But they also have neighboring states that need a lot more help in bringing their reps in line - don't they?

They have a "right" to lobby friendly pols like Kerry. But why? Why not put their efforts into those who need to be convinced?