LECTURER QUESTIONS 2004 VOTE COUNT

[wisteria]

"Phillips believes strong evidence exists indicating that Kerry may actually have beaten Bush by several million votes."
"Bush has never been elected president"

http://www.lagrandeobserver.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=10308


I know this has been suggested before, but it is good to see others present the same perspective on the 2004 outcome as many of us.

[YvonneCa]

1. There are...

...probably quite a few of us with this view of the 2004 Election. I have saved every article on the subject I find...because of those exit polls. I'm no expert, but many who ARE still question them. Phillips is right...the media completely shut out ANY coverage of this story. With all we have learned since 2004...now more than ever...I wonder WHY.

[MBS]

2. yeah;, all the people who blame Kerry for "folding"

seem to forget that the media completely caved on this. For some mysterious (and, I presume, not laudable) reason, the media just refused to cover this issue. Disgusting/
Like you, I keep thinking about those exit polls.

[karynnj]

3. Not just the media

Bill Clinton was out on TV within the week, if I remember right, staking his claim to Hiallary and he being the rightfull leaders of the Democratic party.

I don't remember how much later his Presidential library opening was, but that was when he spoke of likeing both Bush and Kerry. He also did not include Kerry (or I believe) Gore with the honored guests. That would have been an act of generousity that would come naturally to a Kerry, but which Clinton would never even think of.

[ginnyinWI]

5. it must have been December or late November

I think this because at that time my feelings were very raw--and what Clinton said hurt like a knife.

[MBS]

6. out of some masochistic impulse, I'd be interested in reading Clinton's remarks

If either of you can remember the occasion(s) (was it the Presidential library opening only, or was there another moment, too?), or have a link or citation to an article, please pass it along. Just thinking about what must have been said, I can feel that knife. .

[Noisy Democrat]

7. I still remember

He asked something like "Am I the only one who thinks both these men both love our country and that they just have different ideas about the direction it should take?" I shouted at the screen, "Yes! You are!"

[karynnj]

12. My memory is the same

I don't remember if I read it or hear him say it - but Ginny was right, it cut like a knife and was soon followed by constant sniping at how Kerry ran 2004, how Hillary was the leader, and soon after the behind the scenes criticism of Kerry - having the audacity to think that he had any claim to be a leader of the Democratic party.

[fedupinBushcountry]

14. Here is what he said

I will never forget it and it was not received well by the audience.

I don't want to be too political here, but it bothers me when America gets as divided as it was.

I once said to a friend of mine about three days before the election, and I heard all these terrible things, I said, "you know, am I the only person in the entire United States of America who likes both George W. Bush and John Kerry, who believes they're both good people, who believes they both love our country and they just see the world differently?"

This was where he acknowledged kerry in the audience, also in the audience and not on stage was Al Gore.

I can't see through all the umbrellas and all the ponchos or whatever you call those plastic things that make you all look so beautiful. But I'm pretty sure Sen. Kerry's out there. And if he is, I want to thank him, and I'm glad he's back on the job.
I remember Kerry receiving more applause then Clinton.

Also Clinton said something else that day that has stuck in my mind.
And I thought, well, that's about me, you know? I'm a little red and a little blue.
Is that a statement that should come from a former leader of the DEMOCRATIC party ? He is just a LITTLE blue.



http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white_house/july-dec04/library_11-18.html

[karynnj]

15. Thanks for finding this

It is as bad as I remember and as the date was only a little over 2 weeks after the election, I think most of us were very very blue in mood as well as in politics. I remember Clinton as surprisingly elated. That and those words were thoughtless - he also should have had Gore and Kerry with the the Presidents. (Gore more so than Kerry - Gore was his VP and presumably was an important part of the accomplishments.)

I also remember Kerry getting more applause - and he deserved it. Clinton will never be half the man Kerry is.

[ginnyinWI]

8. I found a delightfully snarky article from the Guardian

about the event. A nice mention of JK: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1358966,00.html

I've looked and can't find his actual speech. I did find out that the opening was on Nov. 18, 2004. So soon after the debacle!

[wisteria]

10. So, I suppose, if sen. Kerry would of won, Bill would have still gotten his face in the news. n/t

[wisteria]

11. Nice comment on Kerry's arrival. n/t

[MBS]

16. thanks!

I loved the reference to the "defiant cheering from the crowd"

[wisteria]

9. I remember that.

I also remember the opening of the library. Senator Kerry was there and was cheered when he came out, but people were already enthusiastically talking Hillary 08 and carrying signed there.

[MBS]

4. for a mindless TV take on the general issue tonight. .

the plot of tonight's (Friday, 3/9) episode of the TV show NUMB3RS (CBS, Friday) is about murder and voter fraud.

[ray of light]

13. actually, that post is exactly why the left blogs are furious at kerry for 'folding'

and they think had he not folded then the media wouldn't have folded too. Even if Kerry looked foolish, as the media would have made him, they would have been in the media!

[wisteria]

17. The media would have done a chop job on the exit polling as well as Sen. Kerry.

The entire process would have been mocked-not just Kerry. Besides, it was important during this period of time to have the country behind one leader. A long drawn out contested election would of made us more vulnerable and an easier target for terrorists. And, where would it all lead us? Gore couldn't claim his rightful place either and he had the popular vote and was only a couple hundred votes away from taking it from Bush.

[karynnj]

18. Exactly

The media didn't even cover Kerry's biography appropriately in 2004. They routinely - over every election in my lifetime had puff piece biographies for each major party candidate. All written such that it seems natural and right that they could become President. The only full biography of that sort was the double Bush/Kerry biography that PBS did - which was outstanding. MSNBC had one - but it dealt only with his leading of the protest movement. Kerry has an astonishing biography, filled with accomplishment. They had no trouble creating a biography for Nush in 2000.

Then they didn't cover most of the "major" speeches of the campaign. It may be that if you went back and added times on cable news, that the SBVT may have had more facetime than John Kerry. Given how they covered the SBVT (clearly at variance with the official record) and the TANG charges (some given credence from the official record - Bush did lose flying privledges and he was not seen in AL), would they support him beyond the election.

They ignored all the many Bush flubs and repeated Kerry's few errors mercilessly. Consider how they covered the personalities of John and Teresa vs Laura and George. Kerry was portrayed as a social loner, ignoring that he had an intensely loyal ever growing group of friends who clearly loved him - and were very willing to say so. Teresa, who had for decades been called brilliant, good and beautiful was made to look almost as though she was crazy. Meanwhile Bush was described as a pleasant guy - yet a year later New Orleans drowned while Bush aides didn't tell him because they knew he would respond with anger. Laura was described as perfect, when she sometimes seems almost out of it.

That was the background. The numbers showed Bush millions ahead in the popular vote and ahead by more than the number of non-counted ballots. There were clearly problems - with the long lines and all - but no one has yet made a valid legal case that Bush stold the election. How much longer could he have waited - and for what?

Bush was set to invade Fallujah. Bush would as Wisteria said claim Kerry was putting the country at risk. You can bet that Bill clinton would have stepped in and thrown Kerry to the wolves - claiming the election was over and Kerry lost.

the other thing is that the media, if it looked at the problemas at all would have looked at what was available then. Many of the studies came later. They would have concluded based on what was available that Bush won - and it would have been LESS likely it would have been looked at again.

[MarjorieG]

19. Precisely right on many points.

I always said the public wasn't clamoring for Kerry, as they should have been. Relieved the election was over, they hadn't a sense of what they lost. Still don't, and the unequal media treatment, even just face time, had everything to do with it.

Yet, they went in great numbers to vote for him. Maybe against Bush also, in wartime, but every new candidate is something of a risk, an unknown, which many were taking on trust. Kerry blew Bush away on the debates, and all of a sudden not the caricature. For however few actually watched the debates.

As of now, my head is filled with phantom vote numbers in red states, vote shifts, the millions of international votes we lost (but not from the military), and every other dirty trick. Under the radar direct hate mail.

I also believe that more of an effort to recount would have faced a media backlash, not interested in what would have been a fishing expedition. After the poorly done effort, people would have concluded fair and over. Ohio wouldn't have allowed it, anyway, and shame on Richardson for saying no.

Meanwhile, on another thread people won't notice, there is a book signing party the "Y" night, Monday. Any not too clumsy or aggressive way to insinuate ourselves to that? Jealous of blogger press friends invited to go, complete with hand-delivered copies.

Excited!

[wisteria]

20. You bring up some good points that I had forgotten about.

Especially the Bio information and the treatment of Teresa. The press almost seemed to be saying to the Kerry's, how dare you run against Bush's.

[MBS]

21. Maybe W gave them better snacks on the press plane than JK campaign

I suspect the MSM press corps is really that shallow and juvenile

[karynnj]

23. I don't think it had anything to do with snacks

or even with personalities. The Kerrys are kind, nice, very human people who are interesting and interested in the world around them.) All of that talk hides what Prosense's DKos diary shows - the media is owned by an ever shrinking number of people and it supports the goals of the the owners.

Though much of the diary is connected to the baseball issue -it shows the rat's nest of connections a few more levels down than I had seen. It is scary.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/3/10/91343/8663

[MBS]

26. Your take on this is more accurate than mine

What was sticking in my mind was all the laughter of the press at White House press conferences, the nicknames, the stupidness. . .I'm just so tired of the stupidness and shallowness and cravenness

[YvonneCa]

22. Good Saturday morning...

...everyone! I just came back to this forum to find all these thoughts on the 2004 Election and have a couple more of my own to add today:


1.I know that some here want us to look forward, and not backward. I agree that we should. I think most of us are REALLY trying to move forward. It's just that every time a news article comes out, it 'knocks the scab off' the wound we are trying to heal. I carry with me the sliver of hope that some day, people will know the truth about Election 2004. Kerry won. Period.

2. Secondly, I have a very different take on the remarks by President Clinton at his library opening. I remember watching the opening, still hurting from the 2004 Election situation, and being very disturbed by what he said. I wanted him to stand up for John Kerry, and he didn't do that. I still think he was wrong...both in his words and in his timing. Bill Clinton usually has such good political sense in what he does. For me, on this occasion, I think he GOOFED...big time.

But I see it differently than some here. I think it was a badly timed attempt at unity. For me, this is what sets apart our Democratic Party from the Republicans. All our Democratic leaders are worried about how divided the country is. We're not in a civil war, but we are EXTREMELY split when it comes to policy and the best way forward for our country...not just in Iraq, but in our country's basic values and role in the world.

Last fall, when Kerry came to Pepperdine, I heard the resounding theme of unity, and how important it is for our country. Patriotism. I think one reason he conceded when he did was to avoid more divisiveness in our country, and because the proof of election fraud was not there at the time. Patriotism. I think Al Gore stepped aside in 2000 because to contest the result would further divide a divided country and be financially difficult. Patriotism. And maybe, Bill Clinton's ridiculous remark had the same intent...patriotism. Unify the country. That is why I'm a Democrat.


Remember how sick Bill Clinton was, at the time? I worried that we might lose a strong Democratic leader. No, he's not even close to perfect. But we're on the Democratic TEAM. That's important to remember. Unity. Patriotism. Democracy.:patriot:







>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bill Clinton:


"I don't want to be too political here, but it bothers me when America gets as divided as it was.

I once said to a friend of mine about three days before the election, and I heard all these terrible things, I said, "you know, am I the only person in the entire United States of America who likes both George W. Bush and John Kerry, who believes they're both good people, who believes they both love our country and they just see the world differently?"


"I can't see through all the umbrellas and all the ponchos or whatever you call those plastic things that make you all look so beautiful. But I'm pretty sure Sen. Kerry's out there. And if he is, I want to thank him, and I'm glad he's back on the job."


"And I thought, well, that's about me, you know? I'm a little red and a little blue."

[wisteria]

24. I agree that JK decided as he did in part because of the divisions in this country.

I however, always felt the Clinton's were thinking ahead to 08 and presenting Hillary and Bill as uniter's and moderates.

[YvonneCa]

25. I agree with you...

...about that, too. I think it's possible to do both.