Why is Hillary going Repug Lite , saying we are "winning " the war?

[saracat]

She says the insurgents are failing, and yet fifty five people died today? We are beating last years daily casualty figures by almost double! I read some political excuse for he like she "has" to say we are winning,etc, but I can't buy it anymore. I really would like to be able to support her, but her recent statements have just been awful. Anybody else feel this way?

[elshiva]

1. Don't get me started on Hillary, saracat.

Although, I think she is one of the sexiest women who even walked the earth, I disagree with her on some things. No, we aren't winning. This is a war we CAN'T WIN!
"Iraq is Bush's Vietnam." --Teddy Kennedy. There were "successful" elections in "Nam," too. No, they aren't exactly the same, but they are both pointless, seemingly endless wars, so the comparison is apt.

[saracat]

2. I just don't get whose votes she thinks

and the others who do similar things, think, they will get. Bill Maher says it would do us more good to troll in the waters of the 79 million who were eligable to vote and didn't, instead of pandering to the Bush voters, who didn't vote for us. I agree.

[elshiva]

3. Yes, but how do we get the non-voters?

It's a puzzle to me.

[saracat]

7. We get together a solid message and we stick to it. We are pro-choice and

pro-gay rights.We are pro-human rights.We are against jobs being sent overseas.We support the labor Unions and the enviornment.We support healthcare for all. We lower taxes on the middle class and raise them on the top 2 percent. We expand on all those premises in which we believe, and we sell it to the people. We pound it into their heads, just as the republicans have done with theirs. We form a united front and stop caving in to the other side.Stop playing bi partisanship when there is nobody home.The tougher we hang together in saying NO to these bills and plans the more we will be able to make deals.Every time we present a fragmented front in the Senate or House, we lose bargaining power.Some (to sound like Faux News!) think if we give in, that gets them to negotiate with us.The dirty little secret, is it doesn't work.We have to prove ourselves united first.
If the public sees we have a message, and see us hanging tough and fighting for them, we will create new Dems.We must get them to want what we are selling. Political persuation is just like any other product.We have got to make people see how it benefits them. Most people who didn't vote say it is because they didn't see a difference between the two parties. Seriously.That is what they say.That is the result of the kind of "parsing" Hillary is doing.That is why repuke lite will never win us an election!.

[sandnsea]

4. What she actually said

"It's regrettable that the security needs have increased so much. On the other hand, I think you can look at the country as a whole and see that there are many parts of Iraq that are functioning quite well," Clinton said.

Collins, who last visited Iraq in mid-2003, said the increased violence was "disappointing."

A year and-a-half ago, "we were able to move more freely in Baghdad," she said. "And one impression I have is how much more fortified Baghdad is than it was during that summer."

and

"The concerted effort to disrupt the elections was an abject failure. Not one polling place was shut down or overrun,"

"The fact that you have these suicide bombers now, wreaking such hatred and violence while people pray, is to me, an indication of their failure," Clinton said.

This is a far cry from saying we are "winning" the war. If she chooses to see suicide attacks as last acts of desperate people, I guess she's free to do that. Seems to me like a little boy whistling in the dark. I suppose she's trying to present a unified front so insurgents won't get the idea they can pressure the US into leaving before a government is formed and security is established.

[saracat]

5. She is parsing her words. And I don't like it. The implication is that

we are making progress. This is implying we are a success over there by virtue of the insurgents being a "failure," and that is not true. She is putting a rosy face on Bush's "Vietnam". She is free to say anything she wants, but I don't appreciate distortions.We have enough of that from the Bush Admin and the MSM. She is a huge disappointment to me.

"The concerted effort to disrupt the elections was an abject failure. Not one polling place was shut down or overrun,"

"The fact that you have these suicide bombers now, wreaking such hatred and violence while people pray, is to me, an indication of their failure," Clinton said.

[sandnsea]

8. I've never liked her

Hillary has always been more political than conscience. But I do try to take exactly what people say and mean. She fully supported this war from day one, I'm not surprised she's trying to put as good a face on it as she can.

[GRLMGC]

6. She's gonna run

Appeasing the right wing is going to backfire. She's going to alienate her liberal supporters and the right wing is never going to like her no matter what. Not the smartest move, Senator Clinton.

[karynnj]

9. The comments may be a distortion of all she is saying

On one of the DU board's yesterday evening they had a Fox news article that took a Kerry comment that essentially said that his Iraq plan was "perfect". They then talked about how bad Kerry's timing is and how wrong it is for him to say this.

Ignoring whether everything is coming up roses in Baghdad, there were at least 2 substantive statements made by Kerry - his statement that he would vote for the supplemental, his speech in Worcester on the military and supporting the soldiers, which I might not have seen if not posted by TAY TAY. Ignoring all of this to focus on his comment that he still thinks the same things he listed months ago need to be done, ignores Kerry's very thoughtful, substantive proposals and focuses only on a statement without any context. (IE - they don't bother to say what Kerry's plan is)

The point is that if I was exposed only to the Kerry TV story, I would get the story partially right, but I would miss more significant parts and would get a very inaccurate picture of Kerry - notably, nothing of his very obvious concern for the soldiers comes through. It's possible that there is a similar dynamic going on with Hillary. In her case, maybe their goal is to further alienate liberals. It does seem as though the media was used against everyone of the candidates.

[saracat]

12. Nope. I just listened to her on MTP. She is pushing the Bush Plan 100%.

Unless she is distorting herself.:)

[karynnj]

13. You're right.

I wrote the earlier message not knowing what else was said. I really am sad to think that she is totally behind Bush because his plans look more ominous than his past actions, if that is possible, It becomes more obvious what we lost in November all the time.

[ginnyinWI]

10. Hillary Clinton and John McCain together on MTP

Can you say 2008, anyone? SO obvious. But no, she just doesn't inspire me. She was doing a worse job of communicating than McCain was--speaking Senator-ese.

[TheDonkey]

11. Getting ready for 2008

At first I wasn't sure she was going to run but lately it looks pretty obvious she's trying to start positioning herself now good and early.

The only problem is though that the MSM and right-wing won't care she's trying to moderate her positions and language on some isssues, they will attack her hard and heavy.

[Blue_In_AK]

14. I don't trust Hillary...

...or her motivations. Both Clintons are kind of getting under my skin lately, which makes me kind of sad, because I supported Bill all the way through the Monica thing. I just can't stand to see him (or her) cozying up to the people who tried to destroy him.

[angrydemocrat]

15. I Don't Either!!

And for many reasons! Especially Hilliary. And I didn't start saying this just today I have said it for a long time now. And I have made many mad over it but I have strong strong feelings when it comes to this very issue. And the way they are kissing * ass didn't just start. And many democrats have seen it for a long time now but there are many just now waking up to this fact as well. But you still have those who refuse to take the blinders off, but as time goes on they will be forced to take them off. Just wait and see.

And I'm not a Clinton hater at all. Clinton was not my first choice in 92' but voted for him in 92' and 96'. And I have took up for Clinton more times than you can imagine over the Monica scandal and other things. I feel Clinton was a good president and what he did was nothing that was anyone's business and it damn sure didn't effect his job performace. But the Clinton's have changed in many ways and not always for the best. And as I said I sure don't trust Hilliary, Carville, and others that are so closely tied to Hilliary for many reasons.

[Blue_In_AK]

16. I'm so happy I'm not alone on this...

It's not a new position for me either. She's really the only leading Democrat right now that sets off this alarm in my head. I have no problems whatsoever with Dean, Clark, Edwards, or any of the others who aren't Kerry, I think they're all on our side, but for some reason I think Hillary's motivations are purely self-aggrandizing and self-promoting. I really don't even have a problem with Lieberman, Feinstein and some of the other more right-of-me senators, because at least you know that about them. Hillary wants to be perceived as a liberal by Democrats, centrist by Republicans ... she's just too chameleon-like.

I also don't like the way the Right keeps touting her as the Democratic front-runner for 2008. It just seems way too convenient to me. They win, either way ... whether she wins or loses. If she ends up being the Democratic nominee, I might have to go third-party again. (I voted for Nader in 2000 as a conscience vote because I knew Alaska would go Republican anyway and my vote wouldn't make any difference. If I knew then what I know now, I surely would have voted for Al Gore.)

Sorry to rant, but I'm afraid to say it out on the GD or GD:P forum. I'm usually not too timid to go out there, but I always keep it short. I'm a sensitive little thing at heart.



ed. ... Hahaha, I didn't know when I did the abbreviation for General Discussion: Politics that it would put the funny smiley.

[saracat]

17. You are definitely not alone.

Most Dems that I know feel much the same. Even those who support her don't want her to run. I am suspicious about the perceived support for her. I think it is a RW plot to make us lose. I also have been really disappointed in Bill. When he told us to "stop whining" right after the election, I was stunned. I was stunned again on Larry King when he said Bush "won, fair and square". I was stunned again when he was asked if , considering the Tsunami and all the war casualties, he thought the most expensive Inaugural in history was appropriate, and he said Bush could have any kind of Inaugural he wanted because he "deserved" it!

[Blue_In_AK]

18. Yeah, what's up with that...

Did they give him some kind of poison to mess with his mind while he was in the hospital with his heart surgery? If I had been treated the way he was by the Republicans 1992-2000, there would be no way in hell I could be cordial to them. It's extremely disappointing and unexplainable.

[karynnj]

20. Was surprised by won, fair and square

No so much because of the irregularities because in fairness, the Kerry people were saying the PROVABLE fraud, irregularities etc would not have given him victory. Although why then is this suddenly Hillary's big issue? But even if there were no election issues, I would consider that the Republican dirty tricks were sufficient to preclude a "fair and square" label.

My guess is that Bill Clinton is less appalled than I am that Kerry who was cleaner than most people (much less most politicians) was hit by so much garbage by Republican sponsored creeps and a media that for the most part found it fun to watch rather than investigate.

I did like Clinton, but sometimes disliked that I accepted things about him, I would have criticized in a Republican. As I read more about Kerry, I respected, liked, and trusted him more than I ever did Bill Clinton.

[LeftyLizzie]

19. I like Hillary a lot, but . . .

I don't think she'd ever get elected. If she were to get the nomination (which I don't think she will), I'd support her wholeheartedly, and I do think she'd be a good president, but I think there are lots of other Dems who would be good presidents, too.

[angrydemocrat]

21. I don't think she will get the nomination either

And I'm almost willing to bet my life she won't if Kerry runs again that for sure. And I'm telling you guys Kerry will run in 2008 and you can take that to the bank with ya! Just ask people who really know Kerry people who have watched and seen him in action for many many years. He is running! No he hasn't publicly announced it and he wont until it is the right time to do so, but that doesn't mean he hasn't already put his plans into action for running in 2008. As Tay Tay would say study and read the tea leaves. So I'm not worried about Hilliary as far as her running. What worries me is the damage she will do to everyone in the process of her trying to get what she wants. People like her are dangerous! And when I say dangerous I don't mean in a sense just to other politicians or being a threat in the sense of winning alone. She is dangerous to all democrats including voters who are worried about their values going up in smoke! And she will do whatever she thinks will make her win even if it means siding with republicans or Bush on issues that put the rights of others in this party and their values on the chopping block. And voting for bullshit that clearly doesn't represent the values of the party and then standing around giving some phony bullshit reason why it was the right thing to do. She is the type that will go against her own beliefs if she is convinced it will win her more votes.

At least with those like Lieberman you know where they stand on most issues wether you agree with them or not. And they stick by their beliefs almost always regardless of what we think. Like with Lieberman most democrats are very much dissatisfied with his choice when it comes down to votes but apparently the people of Conn. are not or he wouldn't be there. But when Lieberman runs for president he is skunked bigger than shit because as I said the majority of democrats don't agree with Mr. Go Joe. But Hilliary is not the type to just be herself she is the type that tries to put on a mask and be someone she thinks everyone wants so she can win and get what she wants. And people like that are dangerous and are not to be trusted.

As far as president and this country being in the shape it is in now and with all this war on terror ect. personally I think she would be a disaster. She is not no Bill people. She makes a good senator but president NO WAY! And she don't have to where a mask to appeal to those who vote for her to be senator therefor she can be more down to earth and realistic. She doesn't have that kind of appeal with others across this country and she will put on the mask to get what she wants.

[LeftyLizzie]

22. I think that if Kerry runs

he's far more likely to get the nomination than Hillary is, and I sincerely hope that he gets it because I think that he'll be one of the best presidents that this country ever had. My issue with the Hillary-hating is that maybe she's always been more moderate than we tend to perceive her as being. I'm the first to admit that I haven't followed her Senate record that closely, but how many have? And, of course, she's also known to be very ambitious - that's how she got this far to begin with. I'd love to see a female president one day (and soon, too), but I don't think Hillary's got a chance - there are too many people that don't like her, both inside and outside the party.

[angrydemocrat]

23. Let Clear Something Up

I'm not a Clinton hater. As I said before I think she is a good senator. But what my problem with Hilliary is, is that she is the type that when she wants something she will do whatever it takes to get it. In most cases this is a good thing not bad. But in this case here where the problem comes in at is, as you said there are to many inside and outside the party that don't like her, so rather her be honest and up front with people, try to get people to understand her better and understand why she believes what she does she is willing to be someone she is not to appeal to those who don't like her and tell a phony bullshit line to her loyal supporters or those who do to try and get them to fall in line with her. And she wants to be president really bad and if it means siding with republicans, Bush, whatever she will do it to get what she wants.

As Senator or when she is running for Senator she doesn't have to do this because she is well liked and well respected in New York. Just as Lieberman is in Conn.. But like Lieberman outside of their state it is a whole different ball game, she is more like than Go Joe but still it is not there. So rather than be herself and go about things right and where she wants to win so damn bad that she will do anything including her and Bill kissing *'s sorry ass! Voting for phony bullshit bills that if she were not running for president you can almost bet she wouldn't vote for and she is just not to be trusted. Anyone who would stoop to kissing *'s ass the way the Clinton's have should be enough evidence in and by itself to tell people "hey wake up here" and should have the trust alert button on bright red.

You can go back and read other threads where me and a few others here have felt this way for a while. It didn't start today and I have made many mad over it not trying to but it is how I feel along with some others. But as I said I don't hate the woman nor do I hate her husband. If she stuck with the job she has and she is good at that would be great, but as I said her trying to be someone she is not in order to appeal to try to appeal to enough people to get what she wants to me is very irresponsible and is dangerous to all involved. And you can't tell or convince me that her and Bill kissing *'s ass is not putting on a damn mask and pretending to be someone you are not. And this is just the beginning and on top of that plays right into the right wing nuts and the right wing media's agenda big time. And they are playing it up for everything they can hoping people like us fall for the bullshit. I can say one thing here is one person that see's right through their damn scheme's and as do many others.

So as I said I do not hate the Clinton's but at the same time I am disappointed in what they are doing and the bullshit remarks they have said because it is very disrespectful to all those that have always supported them and fought for them even when Bush, the right wing nuts, and right wing media attacked them. There is no excuse for it and it is uncalled for. That being said it doesn't mean that you hate them it simply means you don't trust them and you don't agree with them and I feel for good reasons.

As far as a female president goes I'm not against a female president by any means but I will say I don't feel this country is ready for that yet especially with this war on terror going on and all the dangers that are facing this country especially now that * has stirred the shit and made it a hell of a lot worse than it was. And until you find a woman with the background, knowledge, and experience dealing with this very issue as well as over all foreign policy it won't happen. This country needs people like John Kerry as a leader in these dangerous times. Kerry isn't the only one that can do it but he would be one of the best out of the few that cover all of the qualifications.

[elshiva]

25. I hope Hillary does not run. And if she runs, I hope she

is not nominated. She is a good Senator and a good Democrat. I like her a lot more than Bill. And again she is one of the sexiest women I have ever seen. But,
1. She is too centrist.
2. Hillary and Bill hatred machine is still going strong. Clinton is still blamed for everything from terrorism to the "rise" in oral sex among young people. Much, much worse than the Swifties...
3, She IS A WOMAN! A sad sexist thing to say but it's the truth! Also, RW machine calls her a dyke.

Yes, of course if she gets the nomination, I'll vote for her. Hey, I'm a member of the Friends of Hillary. Also, I have never (and never will) voted for anyone but Democrats these past six years of my voting. I don't regret any of it.

[angrydemocrat]

26. She does good as senator

Hilliary is another one you can believe that will be running. That is another one that you can pretty much take to the bank. It would be a miracle so to speak if she didn't. But I willing to bet money she will be in it, but I'm also willing to bet she doesn't win the nomination either. She is well respected and loved in New York, but like Lieberman she has problems when she heads out of her state. And the Clinton hate is on the rise.

First off Republicans have always hated the Clinton's and have pulled every damn dirty trick in the world to bring them down. And right now the right wing media and right wing neocon leaders are playing them for fools and the sad part is that they are falling for the horseshit! It is sad as well as sickening to sit back and watch. The right wing media and right wing nuts are sitting back praying like hell that democrats fall for the shit and if it were to happen, which I'm telling I seriously don't see it happening they will make mince meat of her. It will be one of the worse smear campaign you would ever see in your life. People thought what happen to Dukakis was bad, then what happen to Al Gore, then poor Max Cleland, and then Kerry they think those were bad well all I can say it would be worse than a combination of those.

As for Democrats I don't pay much attention to the lefty freepers because they hate everyone, but what is noticed is the rise in people who no longer have the same respect and trust that they once had for either of the Clinton's. It's not just Bill. And when it come to Democrats most are like myself about the Monica deal and that is, sure it was wrong because he was a married man nobody is saying what he did was right, but at the same time it was none of nobody's damn business except for him and Hilliary. And if Hilliary was willing to forgive the man for a mistake that he made then who the hell are we to sit back and judge the man and say anything besides it was none of our business to start with. His personal life and his sex life didn't have a damn thing to do with his job performance as a president and it should have never been made as big of a issue as it was and all it did was piss Democrats off and they grew to love Clinton even more after that. So the Monica deal didn't have crap to do with how most Democrats feel about Clinton.

Most Democrats loved the "Come Back Kid" where most Repubs were just the opposite they hated the sight of the man much less to hear him speak. And I will never forget how excited so many Democrats were when they heard that Come Back Kid was going to be speaking at the convention in Boston and even more excited when they found out he was going to campaign for Kerry. Then came the deep sadness when he had to have open heart surgery. Everyone was sad over the fact he had to have the surgery and the fact he wasn't going to be able to campaign for Kerry as we all thought. It was a sad situation all around. Then we all got the great news that he would still be able to campaign for Kerry. So all the excitement was back. It wasn't until after the election that all that changed for many Democrats.

Like myself many Democrats don't hate Clinton at all. Hate is not in the vocabulary when it comes to describing him. Pissed, Saddened, In Total Shock, No Longer Trust, And Doubt is more the words in most Democrats vocabulary when it comes to him and Hilliary now. First off this election was the most emotional election I have ever seen in my life. People were on such a damn roller coaster ride starting Nov.2 and it didn't stop for most till after Jan.20. I hope the hell I never see people go through that kind emotional distress and depression ever again. Some people still haven't gotten over it and never have seen anything like it before in my life. Anyhow you have all these people as I just described and then you know Kerry himself was having a time of things as much as anyone only he was very good in most cases not all but most of hiding his and being strong and trying to help all those who weren't.

So where I noticed the the change of heart start towards Bill was at the opening of his library. When you have all these people on this emotional roller coaster and you have Kerry sitting there and you could tell he was still dealing with all this himself and Bill makes the remark "Am I the only person that likes George Bush and John Kerry both?" When I was watching and heard that it just flew all over me. And I screamed out Fuck Yes! And I was the only one it struck a wrong cord with. I never heard so many democrats upset over a remark that man made as they were he made that one. Because like myself we all felt it was disrespectful as hell and uncalled for. And the shit just continued on even after the library. The remarks about * won fair and square, the remark about telling democrats to get over it, and as if all the dumbass remarks from him and the bullshit that was found out later about people that were close to the Clinton's and had also worked for them in the past that were also involved in Kerry's campaign, as if all that shit wasn't a big enough blow to people who are on this damn roller coaster he starts kissing *'s ass in a major kind of way and the shit has yet to stop.

So yes there are many that don't trust the Clinton's and they have feel the same way they use to about them. They no longer love the Clinton's the way they had grown to love them when he was president. And as I said people don't hate them but they sure as hell lost a lot of supporters and continue to do so over there disrespect of the very people that help get them where they are today. And without the support of the voters you will get no where. And many people haven't gotten over the dumbass uncalled for disrespectful remarks made. So I'm being honest when I say I don't see Hilliary getting the nomination.

[ginnyinWI]

24. the think with Hillary is that, just like with Bill--

I just don't totally trust her when she says something, like I trust JK when he says something. I just don't. She seems like a politician, first.

When JK says something, it feels like it's coming from his deeply held principles, and that he stands by every word. He inspires people to believe in him, because of that true conviction and confident delivery. So yeah, I don't think she can win on that score, if I am any kind of example of an average voter. Of course I already have a familiarity with JK and his policies, but so do a lot of people.

Hillary is relatively new at expressing her policies. She's got some way to go to catch up.