A mistake John Kerry made in 2006.

[beachmom]

The Economist has put out an editorial on the rise of cases of measles in England on account of the unscientifically proven scare that vaccines cause autism. I know this is a majorly controversial topic. But until I see a peer reviewed scientific study that proves it (yes, like global climate change), then it is just bunk nonsense, by people upset and wanting to know why something happened to their child.

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12725316

On November 28th the Health Protection Agency (HPA), which monitors infectious diseases, said that there were 1,049 cases of measles in England and Wales in the ten months to October 2008. Even before the year is out, that makes 2008 the worst year since 1995, when current reporting methods began (see chart). The rise, says the HPA, is due to a fall in vaccination rates. In 1998 91% of two-year-olds were immunised, but by 2004 that had fallen to 80%, far below the 90% rate needed to keep the disease under control.

Reluctance to vaccinate stems from a health scare surrounding MMR, a three-in-one vaccine designed to protect children from measles, mumps and rubella. In 1998 Andrew Wakefield, then a lecturer at London’s Royal Free Hospital, suggested that MMR could cause autism and opined that single-use vaccines should be used instead (although the paper he based his recommendations on asserted no such link).

...

A string of subsequent studies (and a meta-study of 31 other papers) found nothing to suggest that MMR has anything to do with autism. But it was too late: by then many parents, egged on by anti-vaccination campaigners, were refusing to give MMR to their children.

Epidemiologists at the HPA worry that the cohort of unvaccinated children may lead to a big outbreak, with between 30,000 and 100,000 people falling ill. That would mean a number of deaths: the fatality rate for measles in rich countries is one in somewhere between 2,500 and 5,000. Something similar has already happened with mumps: 55,000 people fell ill between 2004 and 2006 (death from mumps is exceptionally rare).

...

But she lays much of the responsibility for the MMR furore at the door of a scientifically illiterate, scaremongering press. And whereas health officials may have learnt from their experiences, she is less sure about the fourth estate. “Have the media learnt anything?” she wonders. “No, on balance, I don’t think they have.” With some of the campaigners that opposed MMR now questioning the safety of a vaccine designed to protect teenagers against the human papilloma virus, a common sexually-transmitted infection, that is a depressing conclusion.

At the bloggers convention this past summer, there was a well funded (and thankfully, largely ignored) group who set up a booth linking vaccines and autism. They claim to want to help kids, but all they are doing is scaring people from doing the right thing and vaccinating their kids. These groups are all over the internet, and did a hit piece on Kerry, as a result of him saying something impolitic (in my view) on the Imus show in 2006. Look, if Sen. Kerry can use anecdotal evidence against thirmesol, then I guess it is fine for Inhofe to use anecdotal evidence to say global climate change isn't real. That is why we have peer reviewed scientific studies.

http://versprill.com/thimerosal/thimerosal-john-kerry-wouldnt-want-it-in-his-kid

The hit on John Kerry is that apparently, he did not follow that up with any kind of legislation. Well, that to me means he came to his senses.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/parenting/2008/01/the_eli_stone_controversy_1.html

Although the Philly Enquirer link is broken here is a vital quote:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/118574.html

(the above link links to the Philly Enquirer):

Recent research on many fronts in medicine and science has nailed the coffin shut on the mercury-in-vaccines-causes-autism hypothesis. The connection is just not there. Perhaps the key fact, which has garnered little attention, is that thimerosal (the mercury containing preservative alleged to cause autism) has been removed from vaccines in this and other countries for many years, with no obvious impact on the incidence of autism...

If there has been a more harmful urban legend circulating in our society than the vaccine-autism link, it is hard to know what it might be. At a time when vaccines may be our last best hope in facing some of the greatest challenges we and our children face, this legend needs to be put to rest. Vaccination, not vaccine-bashing, is what this nation needs.

Kerry said in that hit piece site that he wouldn't let his kid receive a vaccine that had thirmesol in it. Well, first off it is not in any of the children's vaccines with the exception that there are traces in a flu shot. But who would know that listening casually to a radio program? All they really heard was a very powerful Senator say no to a vaccine. I just think as a public servant, Sen. Kerry should not comment on health issues, unless he knows something about it. Clearly, he was relaying a story from an upset parent, even though it ends up the conclusion made was dead wrong. Meanwhile, he is featured on one of those sites, and what he said will live forever on the internet.

[Mass]

1. Take a deep breath. This website is about fighting against the connection between thimesoral and

autism. This is ALL they are doing. It is not a hit piece on Kerry for the sake of hitting Kerry. In their mind and given what they believe (and sometimes their links with pharmaceutical industries), it is a logical piece.

This said, the topic of autism is a serious topic, worth exploring. Who cares what a vague fringe website says about Kerry on it. It is true that there were some serious questions about some early vaccines. It is also true that this has been used by people as a justification not to give the MMR, thus creating new epidemics (add to this that some vaccines used in the 90s were not life long as was thought before). It is also true that, even if thimesoral could be a source of autism, it is definitively NOT the only source (autism has existed before the MMR, and continues to exist now that there is no thimesoral in MMR vaccines).

So, while they are obviously wrong with what they said about Kerry, there are a lot of more important things to be outraged about in this world, and, if we are talking about autism, the fact that most public schools have absolutely NO IDEA how to educate properly kids with autism should be a more valuable reason to be outraged.

Now, I get off my soap box.

[Mass]

4. I clearly misunderstood you, but what I said still stands.

[beachmom]

6. I agree with you on autism and education.

I think we basically agree on the other issues. My only point is that public officials need to be very careful when they discuss vaccines and autism, because it ends up discouraging people from getting their kids vaccinated.

[karynnj]

2. There's a major difference between Kerry's story and Inhofe's insanity

Kerry never said that it WAS linked to autism. I remember him cautioning that this wasn't proof - but I don't think any transcripts still exist and the DU thread here ignores it - mostly speaking of Imus's rudeness to the Senator. The fact is that it was possible to make the vaccines without thimerosal. There is also plenty of proof that mercury in other forms is a neurotoxin. The spirit of the entire chapter of his book on toxins is that we should be prudent in thoroughly testing every compound added to anything.

At the time of the Imus show there was no definitive study saying it was not a problem. I think at the time that Kerry was speaking thimerosal was in some of the other children's vaccines. From the information available, as a public servant, he should have asked for more testing - which I think he did. As a parent, I think most of us at that point might have made exactly the decision that Kerry said he would. Note that he wasn't saying to not give vaccines at all. He and Teresa were speaking of phylates at a point where many in the industries that used them claimed they were safe. Obviously, he can never lead on some of these toxin issues or he can possibly be wrong sometimes.

The objection I have is that he clearly was pandering to Imus, who made this a huge issue.

[TayTay]

3. Sen. Kerry co-sponsored 2 bills this year that are loosely related to this topic

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-3040&tab=related">S. 3040
110th Congress

Kid-Safe Chemicals Act of 2008

5/20/2008--Introduced.
Kid-Safe Chemicals Act of 2008 - Amends the Toxic Substances Control Act to require each manufacturer of a chemical substance distributed in commerce to submit to the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA): (1) a statement certifying that the substance meets required safety standards or that there is insufficient data to make such determination; and (2) all reasonably available information concerning the substance not previously submitted. Requires manufacturers to update such information at least every three years or at any time new information becomes available on a substance's toxicity.
Requires manufacturers to provide chemical safety information upon the Administrator's request.

Prohibits the manufacture, importation, or distribution in commerce of a chemical substance if the Administrator determines that the manufacturer has failed to comply with this Act or that the substance does not meet applicable safety standards. Authorizes the Administrator to prohibit a specified use of a chemical substance in consumer products if the use of the product in the home results in human exposure that does not meet the safety standard.

Requires the Administrator to:
(1) publish a priority list that categorizes all chemical substances distributed in commerce;
(2) develop a priority list for making safety determinations of at least 300 chemical substances;
(3) determine whether a manufacturer has established that its priority-list substances meet applicable safety standards;
(4) arrange for the Director of the National Center for Environmental Health at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to conduct a biomonitoring study to determine the presence of a chemical substance in human cord blood if the Administrator determines that it may be present in human blood, fluids, or tissue;
(5) implement animal testing alternatives;
(6) create market incentives for the development of safer alternatives to existing chemical substances;
(7) establish an Interagency Science Advisory Board on Children's Health and Toxic Substances;
(8) cooperate with international efforts to monitor chemical substances; and
(9) create a database to share information on the toxicity and use of, and exposure to, chemical substances and provide public access to such data.

AND

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-2928&tab=summary">S. 2928:
110th Congress

BPA-Free Kids Act of 2008
4/29/2008--Introduced.

BPA-Free Kids Act of 2008 - Treats as a banned hazardous substance under the Federal Hazardous Substances Act any consumer product that contains a detectable amount of bisphenol A (commonly known as BPA) and that is designed for or intended for use by, or care of, a child seven years of age or younger. Permits state laws that provide equal or greater protection.

Requires a study on the health effects of BPA exposure in all age groups and in pregnant women.

Thi is actual legislation that Sen. Kerry co-sponsored that is at sort of related to the topic. This was the ACTION he took based on his informed beliefs. Was this contradictory to the OP? (i.e., the people in the YouTube video are advocating for a certain position. Does this legislation inline with that or not? This is actual legislation, it has the Senator's name on it as a co-sponsor, it should have some weight as a measure of his thinking then, right?)

[beachmom]

5. My annoyance is public officials discouraging people from getting their kids vaccinated.

The fact is thimerosal is not in vaccines, with the exception of flu shots, where there are traces. I don't know for sure, but I believe there is no thimerosal in flu shots for kids, just adults. Kerry's conversation with that man in the UPS truck was clearly about a shot from a while ago.

I didn't hear Kerry say in that video that he thinks thimerosal should not be in shots, and that he would work to get it outlawed. I heard him say he would not allow his kids to receive a vaccine if thimerosal was in it. I think that was not a good way of talking about it. The short hand is that Senator Kerry said vaccines cause autism. There is not only no scientific proof that vaccines cause autism, there is also no scientific proof that thimerosal causes autism. It was irresponsible of him to talk about something like it's true when it clearly wasn't. Most people are not as sophisticated as Kerry: they don't hear "anecdotal evidence" and understand that means no peer reviewed scientific study shows any correlation. Talk like this causes panic. Then suddenly, people stop getting their kids vaccines, and you get measle cases popping up.

Just for background, the vaccine/autism panic was in full force when I had to get my children vaccinated. I had a detailed conversation with my doctor, who assured me there was no scientific proof and that the vaccines were safe. I had another conversation with him after RFK, Jr. had an article on the front page of the newspaper that greatly upset me. Again, the doctor said the scientific studies he trusted showed there was no correlation. Not only that, it is extremely dangerous for people to opt out of getting vaccines, thereby making us go backwards fighting children's diseases which are preventable with a vaccine. But the bottom line, I was filled with total guilt and confusion during this time. In the end, I got my kids vaccinated, with the calculation that I would be risking the rest of the population if I didn't do the responsible thing. Now we learn, as The Economist points out, it was all mass hysteria with no underlying science to back it up.

So, what Sen. Kerry said on that program was not good. He was wrong to basically make parents who HAVE gotten their kids vaccinated, including flu shots that contained Thimerosal, feel bad, based on no scientific evidence. I just think that since he did not know the whole story (at that point in time, there was suspicion about Thimerosal, but 1 year later in 2007, studies showed it was not true), he should have been more cautious in how he talked about vaccines.

All of this is entirely separate from the good work Kerry has done in the Senate outlawing certain chemicals. I have no problem with putting in place laws to protect children from chemicals. It has been scientifically proven that BPA is harmful. I wouldn't mind seeing America go the way of Europe where you have to prove a chemical is safe BEFORE it goes to market. But that is not the same thing as claiming something causes autism when there is no proof there is. Now he didn't exactly say that, but he told the awful story and then said he wouldn't let his kids have that vaccine. All based on no scientific evidence.

[TayTay]

7. But he never said not to get your kids vaccinated

He related a story told to him and said he would not allow a vaccine with thimerosal in it to be used in a child. This was relayed as anecdotal. At no point was the truck driver said to be a doctor in some kind of hiding or disguise. I fail to see the point here. I fail to see where people were told that the vaccines were bad, not the additives. (This assumption is built on a fault line. Just because people can make a YouTube video doesn't mean that the person they are using agrees with them. I fail to see where your assumption holds up here. And, ah, the substance in question was banned, right?)

This makes no sense. The actual legislation that Sen. Kerry has filed is his legislative signature, not some YouTube video of a segment of a radio interview in which he is shown relaying an anecdote that he makes no claims to have been either scientific or definitive on the subject. The weight of the evidence does not support the outcome claimed here.

[beachmom]

8. The problem is that you are looking at this from a dispassionate place

and not taking it in context of the times we live in. I know parents who don't vaccinate their kids on account of these controversies. They GRASP onto statements made by prominent people like Sen. Kerry to justify it and encourage others also not to vaccinate. Thimerosal was just the latest fad in a long list of false correlations linking Autism and Vaccines. As to it no longer being used in vaccines for kids, that is precautionary and completely above board for the reasons Karynnj states about mercury. It is NOT an admission that it causes autism. That has never been proven. But Kerry was basically saying it is dangerous, and citing an autism case. I disagree with you that this was no big deal. And this group has used his words to justify their conspiracy theories. No matter that it is unfair or can be parsed to show he didn't mean it that way. I think he should be more careful. Words matter.

[TayTay]

9. I still fail to see the point

The thimerosal was the whole point of the objection. There was no case made by Sen. Kerry about vaccines in that. At all.

Any public utterance by any "famous" person can be taken out of context. Short of never saying anything about anything, there is zero way to prevent misuse or deliberate misquoting of what someone said, unless you want public officials to never say anything on the record or hide behind some sort of public veil of secrecy.

I am sorry, but I still fail to see why this indictment is valid. The people who are against vaccines are pushing a case. I do not see how Kerry helped them in this. This makes no sense.

[beachmom]

11. "Something dangerous is in the vaccine. Better not get vaccinated."

That is the message that has been sent to us parents since this whole thing blew up in 1998. With bad results:



Sen. Kerry furthered the message that some vaccines are dangerous citing an anecdote. That was wrong. Somebody could have heard it, and it was the final reason they decide to opt out of vaccines. Maybe there is more to what he said than in that video, but on its face it was very unhelpful to parents as it omitted how extremely dangerous it is for people not to get vaccinated.

Tony Blair, then prime minister, assured the public that MMR was safe but refused to say whether his own son had been vaccinated.

Look at the graph again. What public officials say matters.

[TayTay]

14. But he never said don't vaccinate

The people who seem to be in favor of that implied that he said it.

Not the same thing. And not controllable. Again, the filed legislation is a more accurate representation of where the Senator is in his thinking.

He said that thimerosal was bad. Arguably, it is.

Again, why is this Kerry's fault?

[beachmom]

18. It's not his fault. But he was NOT helpful in what he said.

If Thimerosal is awful, and it's in vaccines, what are parents supposed to do? He is saying in a vaccuum, that he would not allow his kids to get these vaccines IF Thimerosal is in it. What if parents assume it is in ALL vaccines? Then they won't get them. From what I have read, it is in some flu shots. How are we supposed to know which?

He said that thimerosal was bad. Arguably, it is.

Please cite the scientific study. It seems to me that you agree with him. Well, I don't. It does NOT cause autism. And that is what he was saying, by citing an anecdotal autism case. Most people aren't scientists or learn the nuances of knowing the difference between "anecdote" and "peer reviewed scientific study". He only mentioned the one demonstrably false cause and effect of thimerosal: autism. He was wrong. He should have waited for the study to come out. His "out" that he mentioned it was anecdotal was not good enough. Not everyone understands that. They just heard "thimerosal" and "vaccine" and "autism".

Sigh. I don't think you guys are going to understand my frustration with what he said. I just think at this juncture NOBODY should mention "autism" and any aspect of "vaccine", unless they have some very solid scientific evidence to back it up. Yes, that is a high standard but given the dire consequences of kids not getting vaccinated, I think that is the proper way forward. You can disagree. But look at that measles chart again and see how high the stakes are. This is not just about not buying some plastic toys or baby bottles here.

[Mass]

21. People died in Europe waiting for a peer review showing that BSE was transmissible to humans.

This is why, though as this point the connection between vaccine and autism seems disproven, I cannot agree with waiting for a peer review study showing the risk, if there is some serious doubt.

The point is that, in 2006, serious institutions like the Shriver Institute were saying there was a possibility of connection: http://www.nichd.nih.gov/publications/pubs/autism/mmr/

Also, we are talking about measles, mumps and rubella, here, not smallpox or polio. Yes, there are risks, but these are diseases that every European kids in my generation got (in fact, one of my kids got it despite being vaccinated because sometimes, vaccines do not work), and why there is no reason taking the risk with a vaccine that is safe, the risk of getting an encephalopathy (which is the reason you immunize against measles) is not exactly very high in our countries. Actually, the main risk is that many doctors have not seen any case of measles and do not recognize it until it is too late and a child has infected many other children.

Sorry, I think that this is too alarmist. May be it is because of my personal familial situation, but I cannot get exercised about Kerry saying this. Sorry.

By the way, here is the CDC page for measles, as the youngest among us may not know what it is. Yes, there may be complications (particularly for people with weak immunity, if I am not mistaken), and it is probably better to have the vaccine.

http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/yellowBookCh4-Measles.aspx

[beachmom]

22. Well, I don't have a problem with moving to the European model in regards to chemicals:

that you have to prove their safety BEFORE using them. (although clearly, that was not the case in England) The problem here is that this stuff was used in vaccines: so it puts everyone between a rock and a hard place. I would have preferred Kerry work quietly behind the scenes to get it out of the vaccines if he had concerns, instead of going on a radio show citing anecdotes.

And with that, I think I have said my piece.

[ProSense]

10. I don't get it?

You posted this above:

My only point is that public officials need to be very careful when they discuss vaccines and autism, because it ends up discouraging people from getting their kids vaccinated.

A single obscure anecdotal reference could not possibly have discouraged parents from having their kids vaccinated.

They GRASP onto statements made by prominent people like Sen. Kerry to justify it and encourage others also not to vaccinate.

That's called spin, especially given that they are taking the anecdote out of context.

[beachmom]

12. Oh, yes it does. It matters what is on our radio and in our newspapers.

There is a whole cottage industry of folks who don't vaccinate (and I meet Moms who don't so this happens everywhere). There are all kinds of horror stories in the media. Then Kerry joins in, and I just throw up my arms. Like how about proving it before scaring everyone. Kerry's intentions may have been harmless (and it appears that Imus probably brought it up), but he furthered the fear without putting in context the need for people to get vaccinated. This was not a matter of not buying a toy made of a certain plastic. This was about getting vaccinated.

[ProSense]

15. "Kerry joins in, and I just throw up my arms. Like how about proving it before scaring everyone."

He did no such thing.

You claim they're grasping onto the statement and taking it out of context, then add:

Kerry's intentions may have been harmless (and it appears that Imus probably brought it up), but he furthered the fear without putting in context the need for people to get vaccinated.

You obviously realize it was an anecdote and went no further, but you are justifying this argument by attaching the same spin that those taking the statement out of context are doing.

[beachmom]

19. I think I am a bit savvier with information than your average Mom.

I also have been around Moms who don't vaccinate, and all they do is read literature that backs up what they believe to be true. A lot of extended nursing Moms who go to La Leche League meetings are in the no vaccine group.

Despite my painstaking research on this area, hearing him say that is very upsetting. My kids had flu shots! Did it have that stuff in it? Then I researched and found the Philly op-ed, which stated that Thimerosal does NOT cause autism. I mean, GEEZ. He shouldn't have said that!

[karynnj]

13. I understand your concern

I am surprised that these people are not speaking to their children's doctor. Also, I think most schools require the vaccines unless their is a medical reason. I know that is NJ state law. (In fact, I needed a doctor's note because my middle and youngest daughters had only DT, not DPT because they each reacted borderline badly to the first pertussis shot. Reactions tend to increase (per the doctor) and she explained that if the kid got whooping cough, it could be treated well - so the risk was not justified. We were willing to take that risk. Years later they got the full booster because it was reformulated.)

Kerry was actually saying IT MAY BE DANGEROUS, not that it was dangerous. If a parent were to have brought that up with a doctor, the doctor could have either obtained a Thimerosal free dose or convinced the parents that there was little likelihood of a problem. Nothing in what he said said not to vaccinate.

[ProSense]

16. Exactly.

The OP argument presumes that Kerry not only said it (on edit: the vaccine) was dangerous, but also that parents are basing their decisions to vacinate on the anecdote he used, which has nothing to do with whether or not kids should be vaccinated.




edited for clarity.

[Muttocracy]

25. What's the status of the Bisphenol A bill?

As far as I know that's a different subject than vaccines or autism, but I've gotten very interested in BPA in the last few months. That bill is from before I was paying much attention. Is that bill stuck in committee? I'm sure I could look it up on thomas but I'm being lazy in case you know.

(BPA is the substance used to make polycarbonate plastics, a hard clear type, one of the types in the # 7 plastics (not all # 7 plastics are polycarbonate). It's also used in the linings of nearly all canned goods and in dental sealants. It's being banned in Canada and the EU and may be on its way out here since manufacturers are already having to adjust. Especiallly when we get a new FDA...)

[TayTay]

26. Died in Committee

S. 2928, the bill to ban BPA in Children's products died in the Commerce Committee. There was, however, a hearing held on May 14th in the Senate Commerce Committee in which the hazards of BPA and phthalates were explored. This was one of the first Congressional hearings on this issue.

The http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/watchdogreports/35518279.html">Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has an update on this from Dec 4th. There is a link in this article that references the amazing series that reporter Suzanne Rust did on chemicals and their affect on health. Well worth the time to read and I highly recommend it.

Bisphenol A opponents, Obama team to meet

By Meg Kissinger and Susanne Rust of the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Dec. 4, 2008

A coalition of health advocates, looking to seize the momentum of a new administration, will meet with members of President-elect Barack Obama's transition team next week in Washington, D.C., to push for a ban on bisphenol A.

The fact that Obama's team is willing to meet now - with all the other pressures facing the incoming administration - sends a strong signal that the president-elect is open to making environmental health issues a higher priority than the Bush administration.

A meeting has been set, but participants are sketchy on details of who will be there because they say they do not want to call it to the attention of chemical manufacturers.

Chemical-makers have lobbied fiercely for years against any ban on the controversial chemical used to make baby bottles and thousands of other household products. The government has sent mixed signals on the safety of bisphenol A or BPA. Different agencies under the Bush administration have reached different conclusions about the risks. As a result, there has been no uniform policy on the chemical.

With influential members of Congress calling for a ban on BPA, health advocates say they are optimistic.

Never believe that elections don't have consequences. This is proof right here that a change of leadership makes a huge, huge difference.

[Muttocracy]

27. would you believe I was reading that very article today...

I was catching up on some environmental science email lists I'm on. I read the article and thought, now what about that bill Kerry had... Now it comes full circle :) and yes, the impact of many small laws will be pretty profound, particularly on environmental issues.

[JI7]

17. so Kerry didn't fall for the bs about the vaccines causing autism ?

that's good to hear.

[beachmom]

20. Ah, no. He opened the door to that. Just a crack. But for me, that was too much. nt

[karynnj]

23. I think vaccines are important, but that was NOT was Kerry was speaking of

It was an additive that something else could be substituted for. It is now no longer in the children's vaccines.

I had measles, mumps and rubella - most people my age did as children. I did vaccinate my kids, but even respecting Senator Kerry as I do, I would have taken the recommendation of the kids' doctor over something that he spoke of - especially as he didn't say it was proven. If there was a Thimerosal free option, which I would have asked about, I would have requested it - even if it meant delaying when they got the shots.

I wonder if the charts might not reflect that more people do not have access to medical care - so their kids do not get the shots - in addition to the people like the children of the women you are speaking of. (I also realize that it was easier for me to decide not to give my 2 kids the vaccine they had negative reactions to because the number of cases in NJ was very very low thus the kids had very little chance to get it. I also understand that it is important to keep the percent vaccinated very high because that will prevent major outbreaks as there will be few vulnerable people.

[TayTay]

24. There is another thread on this board that talks about Iran-Contra

The absolute standard of say nothing lest it be misinterpreted taken to it's extreme would have meant no investigation into that, no investigation into any risky. It is also risky to say anything about BPA. Or any other thing that might require investigation.

This is an unsustainable standard. It is okay to raise questions. Then read the science. I have zero evidence that the science was avoided here. That is my problem with this. It seems like a big overreach to me. It goes too far as a standard. It would preclude action on almost anything.