Heads up!: JK on Senate Floor Right now..

[ObamaKerryDem]

..debating with Rubio. Watch live here:

http://c-span.org/Events/Senate-Take-Up-Reid-Debt-Plan-House-Fails-to-Pass-by-23-Majority/10737423149-2/

[MBS]

1. He's on RIGHT NOW. n/t

[karynnj]

13. Here is the CSPAN page, from which you can get video of

every appearance - http://www.c-spanvideo.org/videoLibrary/event.php?id=196271

[MBS]

19. exact link to the Sat evening speech (h/t Luftmensch)

http://www.c-spanvideo.org?/program/SenRe/start/20647?/stop/21803

[Inuca]

2. So he was on earlier as well?

I happened upon the speech that ended a short time ago (just before Harkin who went to the 14th, scary...). The speech that I saw was wonderful, wise and strong. What a difference!

[Mass]

3. I did not see it, but I think he spoke twice from comments I saw on GDP

Not sure what you mean by "What a difference!"? With the GOP or with Harkin?

[Inuca]

4. GOP

Harkin I like, but the talk of invoking the 14th scares me. I have no idea whether its' legal or not, since some experts say yes, and others say no, I would assume it is a grey area, which means that if BO goes there it's going to be a HUGE mess. And if he does not, and we default, or even if they mange to patch something together at the last moment, something bad most likely no matter how you look at it, wise compromises are not reached under such conditions, so if a bad deal is reached he (BO) is going to be accused by some (many?) for NOT invoking the 14th amendment as a better alternative.

Hope that what I wrote is understandable, I just let the words flow...

Edited just to correct Harkin's name, it was too jarring.

[Mass]

5. I agree that invoking the 14th amendment is frightening, but sadly, it may be the only way

at this point to avoid the two options you describe, nearly as frightening one as the other. And it would probably do a lot of good to see we have a president ready to take an initiative. I see around me people who are a lot more patient than I am getting fed up by these negotiations and the mess it creates. Yes, the GOP is terrible, but sadly, because of the lack of real fight and ideas debate, the GOP is not losing that much.

[ObamaKerryDem]

9. I have to agree. I think invoking the 14th..

..May well be his best or perhaps ONLY option..*sigh*

[karynnj]

11. As a law student, do you have an opinion on the conficting lawyers?

[karynnj]

10. I think Obama wins if he uses the 14th if there is no agreement on the last day

Polls show that an overwhelming majority do not want a default - and they are very strong on that.

Imagine that that evening, Obama goes on tv and speaks of how no previous Congress EVER did not lift the debt ceiling - and NO party ever demanded a ransom for lifting it. He then should speak of how he agreed that a balanced long term solution was needed (this he has done an excellent job speaking of in some past talks),then he could speak of ALL the meetings he and Democrats had with the Republicans - and the fact, that the Democrats had been SO FAR towards the Republicans that they agreed to gigantic spending cuts with no revenue cuts. This was the original Republican position.

He can then say that the Democrats CAN NOT in good conscience give more. (optional - he should explain why the balanced budget - that the founders did NOT include - is a terrible idea - as were other parts of the ransom bill. )

Then he could say as Kerry said that we are in uncharted waters. Never before has a US President faced the possibility that the US would default under his watch. We don't know exactly what will happen, but we know that it would be bad. He could then say that he was invoking the 14 amendment to insure that the US paid its debts and remained in good standing. That he had no other choice other than sitting there and letting a default happen.

What downside could happen?
1) The Republicans could rush to impeach him. Like with Clinton, it is possible that they would have the votes. It is also possible that even in the House, it would lose. I imagine that nearly ALL the people saying, "Don't default" would be on Obama's side if he did this. It is bold and it really is in the interest of the country. I would bet that this could be a really tough vote for anyone in the House. In the Senate, at the time of the Clinton trial, Kerry summed up that it was up to each individual Senator to determine what high crimes and misdemeanors means. This would be FAR easier for most Democrats than their Clinton speeches, where all listed what they did not approve of in what Clinton did (not sex, more the lying under oath, obstruction of justice, coaching witnesses etc) and then mitigating things, then the conclusion that it was not high crimes and misdemeanors.

I would hope that in doing this - every Democrat would argue that what Obama did was not a crime and not a misdemeanor and beyond that what he did was patriotic and good for the country. The Congress, after all authorized all that spending, so TO NOT SPEND ON PROGRAMS would also be disregarding Congress.

2) The Supreme Court could call it unconstitutional. I assume that would take time as it would not be taken immediately to the Supreme Court. The experts seem split on this, but the Supreme Court ruling it unconstitutional would be throwing the US into default. I would bet that the issue would have to be crystal clear for them to do that - especially if the majority of the country is for it.

I think it far better than giving one more iota to the Republicans. (I seriously think someone should ask Obama if he remembers reading "If you give a mouse a cookie" to his girls - it presages what will happen - the Republicans are going to extract ransom for every needed to pass vote. They won a slight majority in ONE House which Limbaugh calls it the biggest landslide in decades, when in fact, the Democrats had a bigger landslide 2 years before - with a BIGGER majority in the House, 58 votes (later to be 60) votes in the Senate and the Presidency. At the time the right said that that did not give Obama a mandate!

I think we have to say "enough" to the extremists who are blackmailing the Republicans into these actions.

(It actually seems a bigger stretch to use the 14th for Roe vs Wade or to use the first amendment for Citizens United.)

[Inuca]

15. Interesting analysis and

I hope tou are right. Even so, it would still trigger a major circus, impeachment threats, etc., which is NOT what we need now. But I agree it would shoe courage. Let's hope it will not come to that, though. Here is the latest I saw this morning about what MAY be going on http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/07/white-house-republicans-strike-tenative-deal-to-raise-debt-ceiling-.html#.TjTDKTnRVmA.twitter

Here, according to Democratic and Republican sources, are the key elements:
•A debt ceiling increase of up to $2.1 to $2.4 trillion (depending on the size of the spending cuts agreed to in the final deal).
•They have now agreed to spending cuts of roughly $1.2 trillion over 10 years.
•The formation of a special Congressional committee to recommend further deficit reduction of up to $1.6 trillion (whatever it takes to add up to the total of the debt ceiling increase). This deficit reduction could take the form of spending cuts, tax increases or both.
•The special committee must make recommendations by late November (before Congress' Thanksgiving recess).
•If Congress does not approve those cuts by December 23, automatic across-the-board cuts go into effect, including cuts to Defense and Medicare. This "trigger" is designed to force action on the deficit reduction committee's recommendations by making the alternative painful to both Democrats and Republicans.
•A vote, in both the House and Senate, on a balanced budget amendment.

Democrats won't like the fact that Medicare could be exposed to automatic cuts, but the size of the Medicare cuts is limited and they are designed to be taken from Medicare providers, not beneficiaries.

Two sources briefed on the framework say the automatic cuts would hit Defense spending harder than Medicare. A Republican briefed on the framework says this will be unacceptable to many Republicans because it could force them to face a choice between accepting tax increases (if that is what the committee recommends) or automatic cuts that would gut the Pentagon's budget.

In the current horrible context, it does not sound too bad to me... It does have the ridiculous balanced budget amendment, but as long as it is just a vote I don't care much, they can vote all they want if it keeps them happy and away from worse things, as long as it has no real implications.

[Mass]

20. This will have real repercussions. A cut across the board will hurt poor people and the middleclass

disproportionately.

And Democrats will once again show the GOP is that all they have to do is to oppose and the democrats will come to their positions, without even saying it is a compromise position and not what they wanted. Anyway, this is a catch-22. If Dems do not have the courage to stand up, their choice is to look weak or to promote GOP talking points (and even both).

[MBS]

6. can't wait to hear it

I turned off TV in disgust and despair at the Republicans, not realizing that he would indeed give a full speech .. hopefully it will end up on Cspan and/or youtube. .

[Inuca]

7. They are doing the

half hour each side thinggy. Boxer is on now. Sanders just before her, also going to the 14th amendment.

[ObamaKerryDem]

8. It`s on Cspan again right now..

JK in a colloquy with (a very hostile) Tom Coburn.

JK is eloquent and classy as always. Coburn and GOP? Not so much.

[MBS]

12. TPM story on JK speech

highlighted on home page
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

Here's the actual article- with photos and everything
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/kerry-discloses-democrats-sticking-point-in-debt-talks.php?ref=fpa
the clear theme is that JK is key player.

FYI, Sessions (speaking right now) sounds drunk (or, I guess, it's just that he's an idiot).
FYI, he's quoting JK's speech from yesterday --not by name, but using his words as example of how the Dems misrepresent the Republicans.
Kind of a compliment in a back-handed way. :)
God, I'm sick of these morons.

[MBS]

14. JK story now the "headline" story on TPM

Nice photo, too : )
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

[Inuca]

16. Sessions - IDIOT n/t

[MBS]

18. my thoughts EXACTLY.

It's hard to believe that he serves in the same chamber, not to mention the same planet, as Sen. Kerry.
Besides being totally wrong, he's just so DUMB.

[Inuca]

21. Not to mention ugly

inside and out (the inside reflects on the outside after a certain age, mypet theory).

[MBS]

22. Yup, that too! n/t

[Mass]

17. Well, it was not sticking point too long, if the media are correct

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/07/white-house-republicans-strike-tenative-deal-to-raise-debt-ceiling-.html

A debt ceiling increase of up to $2.1 to $2.4 trillion (depending on the size of the spending cuts agreed to in the final deal).
They have now agreed to spending cuts of roughly $1.2 trillion over 10 years.
The formation of a special Congressional committee to recommend further deficit reduction of up to $1.6 trillion (whatever it takes to add up to the total of the debt ceiling increase). This deficit reduction could take the form of spending cuts, tax increases or both.
The special committee must make recommendations by late November (before Congress' Thanksgiving recess).
If Congress does not approve those cuts by December 23, automatic across-the-board cuts go into effect, including cuts to Defense and Medicare. This "trigger" is designed to force action on the deficit reduction committee's recommendations by making the alternative painful to both Democrats and Republicans.
A vote, in both the House and Senate, on a balanced budget amendment.

I think I am going to forget 2012 (except to reelect my congressman and beat Brown), because right now, I am totally MAD.

I guess I should not be surprised. This is what happens when you make Claire McCaskill and Schumer the talking heads of our party. One wants to cap spending, the other one is just in for himself.
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/sunday-morning-bobblehead-thread-3

And they apparently added the disapproval vote. Come On. How low are you going to go rather than show some backbone.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/07/caution-on-capitol-hill-nothing-is-agreed-to-until-everything-is-agreed-to.html

[karynnj]

23. God - this is beyond stupid

What incentive do the Republicans have to act in good faith? I completely share your frustration.

The only (faint though it may be) hope is that this is the media repeating what they hear from people who really do know what will really happen. The media has gotten things completely wrong in the past. But, if this is a the Democrats floating a balloon, I hope people respond loudly and shot it down.

[wisteria]

24. I don't think either party is going to be thrill about what may finally be agreed upon.

And, I don't know who to blame for how out of hand things have gotten. My disappointment comes with the likely possibility of no tax increases for the wealthy.