Did Howard die for our sins or something?

[LittleClarkie]

Why can't we get away with declaring Kerry a genius regardless.

Amazing, simply amazing.

[JohnKleeb]

1. It feels like that

The way some people treat critics of him and that really pisses me off. Anyhow, Dean sure can talk but Kerry knows how to get it done, I am really proud that I admire such a man, its people like Kerry who I think should be the model for people who want to get in to politics. That is people who arent drawn to politics by power but by ezperiences, Kerry got in to politics first because he was interested and then got involved further because of the anti vietnam war movement. What Kerry has done since 1971 is really amazing, I think its a shame that many so called progressives can't see how he's been on their side longer than many of them have been alive. My feelings about it anyhow, I'd rather have Kerry over Dean any day of the week because of things like the Downing Street Memo.

[LittleClarkie]

2. I just want to clarify one thing though

I'm not ranting about Dean himself. I'm peeved at the reaction when Dean gets criticized. Dean's alright by me, and I rather need him to succeed, but he's not a god.

[JohnKleeb]

3. No I understand

but I actually am getting a little peeved by the man himself. I want him to succeed but I dont want him throwing the republicans chances like this to put them on the offense and us on the defense. Now if that to his defenders who expect none of us to criticize makes me a DLC neo-con then they really and I hate to sound angry but go fuck themselves because I for one am anything but a DLC democrat and two I have a right to criticize Dean if I think hes fucking wrong and I honestly think his remarks have been wrong or if not wrong themselves can be twisted to sound that way.

[LittleClarkie]

4. The proof will be in the elections

we'd better start winning some of them.

[JohnKleeb]

5. I hope so

I just dont like Dean making comments that put us on the defensive, he shouldnt be muzzled of course but he should be telling people instead of making remarks that the republicans seem to love about how our party cares sincerely about the equality of all people.

[Pirate Smile]

10. Will Pitt's comments earlier tonight essentially stated how I've felt

throughout this entire episode.

"First, for the Dean critics who have gone public with their criticisms: You are asshats. Ronald Reagan helped build a massively successful Republican coalition by preaching a simple gospel. "Thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican in public," said Reagan, and it worked for them, and it still works for them. There must have been a way, there must have been a dozen ways, for you to deliver your concerns to Dean and the DNC without barfing it out all over the papers. Please don't be so goddam stupid again.

To Dean: There is an old lawyer's saying that goes, "When you have the facts on your side, pound on the facts. When you have the law on your side, pound on the law. When neither the facts nor the law are on your side, pound on the table." Mr. Dean, we have the facts on our side. We have the law on our side. I would humbly suggest you pound on those, and don't bother pounding on the table. Leave that to us."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3814848

I haven't jumped into many threads on this because I think both sides of this issue (Dean/Biden/Edwards/etc.) could have dealt with things better.

Hopefully now we can just, move along ....

[JohnKleeb]

11. I think the problem is that Dean speaks before thinking

He's sort of got the basic premise down but its coming out really bad, like you dont say that a party that has a jewish national chair is all white christians, and they can point to our secretary of state and AG as being rep of their "diversity". I agree that the GOP is mostly white but Dean was refuted very easily on that.

[Pirate Smile]

12. I think Dean should be more specific in his slams and Dem

representatives (not people on DU) should try to avoid criticizing each other publicly.

I saw a bunch of effective responses where people could sidestep/clarify/disagree yet reinforce the basic premise while limiting it more like Dean should have done.

I hate these flare ups.

Dean needs a new vocabulary where he inserts Republican Leadership or Congressional Republicans or Bush Administration instead of just Republicans every time he mentions them.

[JohnKleeb]

13. I dont even think all congressional republicans are bad people

Now leadership perhaps yes, but I have a republican congressman and I admit while I could never vote for him, dont like his stances on most social and economic issues but appreciate his views on human rights abroad, I think hes an ok guy who does genuinely care as evidented by his support for Kosovo in the 90's despite his party's opposition to Clinton and his support for doing omething in Darfur. I think Dean needs to talk more about what we're for rather than the republicans, he should talk about how their congressiopnal policies hurt regular everyday people instead of doing what he does. Everytime he says republicans are all white christians, Mehlman and Co can easily refute that.

[Pirate Smile]

14. Jim Leach is my Congressman so I know what you mean but I think

it would be OK in his role as DNC Chair to bash all Congressional Republicans.

I'd like Leach's seat to be a D instead of an R even though he is generally a decent man. He is a vote for Hastert and Delay for House Leadership so I won't cut him too much slack.

That is the way I feel about the "moderate" Senators who all voted for cloture for Bolton, Rice, Gonzales, Judge Owens and Brown, vote for Frist for ML, and won't push for any investigations.

Susan Collins is the Chairman of Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. There is absolutely no justification for there to not be an Investigation of the war profiteering and corruption occurring by the Contractors in Iraq.

I've pretty much had it with all the Congressional Republicans. Their party is behaving and governing in a despicable, indefensible manner.

[JohnKleeb]

15. I dont like their leadership but I dont think they're evil people

with no ethics. Some people want our poliicans to say that, I dont think thats wise. We should focus on the issues that make us IMO the better party than the GOP without doing this whole the republican party is the devil stuff.

[Pirate Smile]

17. I would certainly not use "evil". That is like BushCo language.

That is a much more sinister, Exorcist type of language I don't think we need to go toward. You can certainly criticize and even bash without making your opponent seem demonic.

[JohnKleeb]

18. I was told an Irish proverb today

To paraphrase the best way to tell a man to hell is to make hell look like something to look forward to. No doubt we should criticize the republicans and their policies but demonizing is a tactic of this administration, and I think thats wrong. We dont get anywhere on negative energy, like look at FDR and RFK, they were classic optimists, I want an optimist leading my party.

[Pirate Smile]

20. We are in a really shitty position to be optimists right now as a

complete opposition party because we control nothing but you are right, people gravitate toward the optimists.

[JohnKleeb]

22. It never hurts to be optimistic

Look at 1968, from all I know about the Robert F. Kennedy campaign, it was an optimistic campaign that promoted unity among hte American people despite their division, the most famous example of this was the speech announcing the death of MLK in Indianapolis. People like optimism, we already have democrats who will vote for us, what we need to win is people who sometimes vote republican, and if they hear rhetoric like the republican party is no good etc, they wont like it. Thats my problem with Dean, hes too negative for me.

[sandnsea]

16. The only ones who didn't move along were Deanies

If they hadn't gone apoplectic over Dean & Biden saying they disagreed with Dean, there would have been no flap at all.

[Pirate Smile]

19. Yeah, there is a rather unhealthy level of reaction. It is similar to

the venom certain people always seem to find necessary to spew whenever John Kerry's name comes up. It is just over the top.

[Pirate Smile]

21. I made the mistake of listening to the beginning of Ed Schultz this

afternoon. He just went off on Dean and it was so amazingly unhelpful to the entire Democratic Party - not just Dean himself - that I had to turn it off.

It kind of put me in a mood about the Democratic circular firing squad. We have to do better.

[JohnKleeb]

23. I agree we shouldnt attack each other but

I dont like Dean feeding the Republicans ammo, I want him to be telling audiences what we are for, and he has to be fair done that but he goes off on one of his tangents and the media jumps on it.

[sandnsea]

24. I don't listen

I heard one today about the grassroots and the elite. That isn't helpful either. The best response I heard was on Olbermann, where Howard Fineman said basically what I did. Why go to all those red states to just turn around and insult those people, makes no sense.

Still, does anybody expect Biden & Edwards to say "yeah, I hate white Christian Republicans who have never done an honest days work in their lives". It's just stupid to think they could. If Deanies want red meat, fine I guess. But they can't expect our leaders to sign on to this, they just can't. So when they politely disagree, Deanie's have to learn to accept it if they don't want this stuff to be the headlines for days on end.

[saracat]

26. But they do want this stuff to be headlines! They say it is strategy and

a good thing!

[sandnsea]

28. I thought it was a shiv

I can't keep up with what they think!

[LittleClarkie]

27. That's what I don't understand about Big Eddie

he railed against moveon for campaigning against a Dem, saying we have to stick together like the Repubs do, but then he can't see that this is exactly what he's NOT doing with Dean. Hellooo Ed!

[sandnsea]

29. It's already Dem v. Dem

Support Biden, Edwards & Pelosi; or Dean. Reid's made some pretty feisty comments, so has Kerry for that matter. If somebody said "Harry Reid speaks for Harry Reid", there'd be no flap because there'd be no Reid Raiders accusing the entire Democratic Party of sabatoging him.

I don't know what Ed said, so I really can't comment to it. It certainly would have been helpful if he'd used his clout to help smooth things over instead of making it worse. Maybe I'll listen tomorrow.

[Pirate Smile]

30. Ed's ego wasn't stroked enough so he now really has his panties in

a wad. He seems to have gone off the deep end about Dean. His focus is what seems so counter-productive.

[saracat]

7. How dare you? You are ordered to go back to the youth Corp and learn to

march in lockstep with the Chairman! All dissenters will be punished! Look at the terrible people who have dared to notice a gaffe, Edwards, Biden, and Pelosi. They will be made to agree or they will pay a price. There will be no dissent.The Chair is omniscient.He does NOT make mistakes.Unlike other Democrats , he is perfect!

[JohnKleeb]

8. hahahha

Thanks for the laugh. Did you read about Biden saying that Gitmo Bay should be closed? Biden is a little too hawkish for me and he is very much a sucker for the credit card industry but he was on teh right side of the nuclear opition deal, hes right about Gitmo Bay, and these people call him a DINO, Biden is a lot of things, but Democrat in Name Only, hahaha no. I think the criticisms of Dean's comments are fully justified, if he meant that republican leadership has never lived an honest day, he should have said that then and there. I dont hate the individual republicans really, hell I dont even hate my GOP Congressman, he at least writes back and he cares about human rights around the world, now I hate Delay yeah and think hes a dishonest man but I dont think every single person who is a republican is what Dean said. I hate to criticize him in such a stern manner but he really looks foolish when he says what he says, the whole white christian flap especially, hes what he said the GOP is and the Jewish RNC chair responds to him, oh god, I hope that man can get his act together.

[saracat]

6. OMG. LC, I just read this.That is hilarious!

I just snorted all over my keyboard!

[LittleClarkie]

9. I aim go please

:D

[saracat]

25. I am still laughing. You really got my funny bone!