I have a serious question to ask everyone.

[whometense]

I've been staying away a lot because people keep bringing these bash Kerry threads to our attention, and it upsets me to read them. I'm upset enough these days without that.

But I really would like to hear from anyone who cares to answer what their thoughts are on who the people who populate these threads really are. Are they unregenerate socialists? Greens? Fringe left democrats? Republican operatives? A little of each? If so, percentages?

Has anyone actually counted up the pilers-on? If so, how many are there? Ten? Fifty? Best guess?

I was just looking at the comment thread on Raw Story, which now has 75 entries. Most are reasonable, sincere, and positive. A fair number belong (20%?) to straight-out trolls. What I find most upsetting of all is the way the fringe lefties completely absorb and spit back the message of the right wing.

That insane thread that claims that Ed Gillespie was working for the Kerry campaign made me want to tear my hair out. I didn't respond, because I know anger is what they're looking for, but I wanted to say, why do you claim any insight into the campaign, when you clearly don't know the first thing about the candidate?

So, have at it. Am I going crazy over four nitwits? Is this a big problem that we need to organize and fight? And now I'm going to post my favorite Kerry picture to calm myself down.

[whometense]

1. That helped, but it didn't do the trick completely.

I need another.

[rox63]

6. Thanks for the pics

A little bit of JK always helps soothe the nerves. :) I try to completely stay away from those Kerry-bashing threads.

[whometense]

11. Agreed.

I usually ignore them too - don't know why I didn't today.

It was that Raw Story comment thread that really got me. I want to scream GROW UP! "Daddy abandoned me. wah wah wah." John Kerry is not their daddy. If I'm not mistaken, he never promised to be their daddy. He just wanted to be their president. Ungrateful monsters.

[politicasista]

2. We're sorry whome

I have been staying away also (because of that reason). It seems like the bashing comes from some supporters of other candidates who are bitter over the primaries or just trolls period.

Here you go: :grouphug:

[whometense]

4. That's okay.

I understand why people feel it's important. And thanks for the hug. :-)

[politicasista]

8. You're welcome.

:hi:

[JI7]

3. it's usually the same

Kerry has never been popular on DU and i was around during the primaries so i try not to let it get to me much since i know it's not that important. or that it's mostly a waste of time dealing with some.

there were people who demanded Kerry do things such as include calling for the freeing of Mumia in the platform. and these types are many of the usual bashers. some are bitter from the primaries.

some of the same ones showed up in the bash Durbin threads.

i just ignore most of the typical bashers since most just want attention anyways.

[whometense]

7. I really do want to understand

what's going on with these people. So you think they're mostly embittered dems? It's hard for me to understand how someone who really is a democrat could say such nasty things about the people who represent our side. And could believe so many horrible things about their own party's candidate.

Do you have any sense of how many of them there are? Sometimes it seems like everyone on DU is like that (present company excepted, of course).

[JI7]

10. i don't consider many to be on my side

and i'm not talking about those who just support/supported someone other than Kerry in the primary in the past or future.

i'm talking about those who spew conspiracy theory type crap and then rant about how the Democratic party let them down and other shit.

[whometense]

12. Well, yeah, you're right, of course.

But I just can't get my brain around the fact that these people would rather spew conspiracy theory type crap and then rant about how the Democratic party let them down and other shit (well said, by the way!!!) than GET ALL OF THEM OUT OF OFFICE.

Surely they can't imagine the stuff they spout is going to lead anywhere positive?

See, this is where my political inexperience comes in. If I'd been around this stuff more, maybe I'd be better at writing it off.

[JI7]

16. and that's the part where they are not on my side comes in

i don't think they really care about getting them out of office as i do. and in some cases i don't think they really want to get them out of office.

[Island Blue]

5. Wow, I just came in to post almost the exact same question.

Since I'm a newbie, I've been wondering if all or most of the blatantly negative post in GD are put there by Freepers or just people out to upset the apple cart. Do one or two people start these things and then there is just a lemming effect of people who never liked Kerry to begin with (although they may consider themselves loyal Democrats). I haven't sat down and charted names of negative posters or anything, but is it the same handful of people or a bunch of different people? To tell you the truth, I really try to ignore this shit. Maybe by doing that I'm not standing up for our guy, I don't know. I just get way too many negative vibes from Shrub Co. to have the will to listen to disgruntled folks make up wild stories.

I really have no problem with fellow Democrats who feel the John Kerry isn't the man to lead us. I feel that way about most of the other potential candidates out there. (Although I will vote for whoever our candidate ultimately is). An honest disagreement is fine. Being infiltrated by Swift Boat Like Liars is not.

I know these things have been brought to our attention a lot in the past few days, but I really don't have the stomach to read most of this shit. That's my $2 worth (inflation, don't ya know.)

[whometense]

9. Well, clearly you and I are on the same page here.

;-)

I agree with everything you just said. And feel the same way. I'm not a newbie here (though I am a newbie out THERE), but I'm a relative political newbie, and lack the stomach to argue with people who are at least nominally on my side.

[Island Blue]

13. I don't really think arguing with them does any good

Their minds are already made up I'm afraid. Anyway, I don't have the stomach for it either. It would be like arguing with my close friend who is a die-hard Republican and Bush fan. There are just some things we agree not to talk about and politics is at the top of the list!


http://209.150.59.148:8080/dontphoto/lane/image/image5.jpg


Hope this helps!

[whometense]

14. Oh, it does!

I love that bit of body language!!

This one always cheers me up - he looks so cocky!! I think it was taken the afternoon before the first debate.

[ginnyinWI]

15. I think--

There are a lot of trolls out there who are deliberately trying to stir up hatred--maybe as many as half of the haters. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it's that many. It seems to happen more when Kerry is out there doing something good, like a floor speech. They see that as the time to knock him down. I wish more people would call them out somehow--point out that they are spouting RW talking points, at least.

Second, there are lefties on here who love to be angry and stay angry. They have a negative, cynical attitude toward life in general and are most comfortable bashing and hating. (I have a friend like this who seems to love to see the dark or bad side of every issue.) These types really don't know how to be happy about anything. It's always, "yeah, but---"

The problem comes when the trolls and bashers get together. The troll starts it and the bashers jump right on the bandwagon. "Yes that's it--he IS terrible and always has been, because of X,Y,Z, blah blah blah."
And so they hate, hate, hate. (Didn't their mothers love them?) These two types work in tandem.

I try to remember that DU is not NBC News, and gets to a relatively small faction of people, a lot of whom are news junkies so are getting input from a lot of places. After a while the bashing gets boring and unless you are one of them, you tend to avoid those threads. So really these people are just squealing amongst themselves and do relatively little harm. When I'm reading a thread and that stuff starts I usually just leave it, unless I'm in a feisty mood! But really I know it's best to ignore them and not kick their threads.
My personal rule is that if I'm reading something about Kerry and it hurts, then that person goes on Ignore. If it is a rational criticism I don't. I'm keeping these people on Ignore until the end of the year, then I might give them a second chance by taking them all off Ignore. That's their punishment--they lose me as an audience and must do their "time" on Ignore. Ok sounds a little nuts, but that's how I deal with it. ;)

[Fla4kerry]

18. The postings that are negative

are mostly people who never did have much at stake for the Democratic party or the candidate. They fell in Love with any other candidate and blame Sen Kerry for everything that went wrong with the election. Rather than look at the "Whole" voting situation and manipulation around the country in voter irregularities and manipulation. EJ Dionne op-ed piece was one of the best in summing up about "any" Democratic candidate.If you can look it up.
Many who bash are troublemakers with no agenda of their own other than the republican propaganda. It is very hard to read this because many millions disagree with the few that write this trash. Remember 57million voted for him and most continue to respect him.
Just my thought..
Thank you for all the great pictures and writing you do for this site..

[Island Blue]

21. Not nuts at all GinnyinWI

I think that's a great way of dealing with the situation!

[whometense]

29. Nail on the head.

Didn't their mothers love them?

Works for me. ;-)

[blm]

17. Some are operatives, some trolls, some ignorant anarchists, some bitter

still over the primary who will always see Kerry as the enemy....mostly those who have no sense of history, let alone Kerry's positive mark on it.

That thread post full of bullshit deserves an Alert, as it's intention is to bring down the Dem party as working with the GOP to throw them the election.

Seems they can never remember that Kerry won all three debates decisively, and if he had wanted to throw the election, he would have done it there.

[politicasista]

19. The most nauseating thing

is reading a positive Kerry post (i.e. kerrygoddess' posts) then less then 10 minutes later, it's filled with freepers bitching and moaning about Kerry. I understand we have a right to our opinions, but spewing the same old Rovian talking points over and over is tiresome.


So tiring, that I just reply as: Yawn, then: :boring:

[Mass]

20. Best guess is about 20.

The problem is that they are present in every Kerry's thread (and rarely in any issue thread).

I do not know if I would qualify them as lefties. One of my highest frustration is that some of them do not seem to care about anything, except promoting their candidates and attacking other ones.

And of course, some of them are probably freepers coming here to create disruption. I have spoted a couple of them that have come here after Kerry has announced he would do something about DSM, posted a few "lefty" posts, then go directly to the Kerry thread to attack.

In fact, I have less problems with certified lefties, because they typically argue on issues and you can try to have a rational argument with them (and sometimes I even could agree with them in another forum, but will not argue on DU because of the systematic Kerry bashers).

[saracat]

22. I hope I haven't driven you away Whomtense. I HAVE been alerting the Forum

about some negative threads especially the aforementioned one as I don't think they should be allowed to stand at all, let alone unchallenged. You notice that our efforts got that thread deleted. Most of these complainers are political newbies with very little experience that are supporters of a former primary candidate. They are bitter because they believe that another candidate would have "won".They constantly look for proof of that theory to prop themselves up. There are at least 20 such people on this board that are in that category.There is , IMHO, an equal and fluctuating number of trolls and GOP operatives using the arguments of these people to influence others. I , as well as others in the Forum have caused some of the more obvious ones to be tombstoned.
I hate getting involved with these types but I really feel an obligation to correct misinformation and the spread if discord when I see it.Much of this is deliberate divisiveness, and I think it is bad for the Party. Constructive criticism is perfectly acceptable. I think we learn from mistakes but outright bashing of a former candidate for ulterior reasons in unacceptable.

[whometense]

23. I don't blame you at all, saracat.

If anything, I get discouraged because I don't have the stomach for combat I feel I should.

I appreciate your words. I honestly want to have a better understanding of what's going on, and what you sayu makes sense to me. I'm not by nature prone to believing conspiracy theories, but in this case it just makes sense that there are a certain number of GOP operatives using the normal dem circular firing squad to their own advantage.

[BlueIris]

32. I alert, too. Because some of the criticisms ARE inappropriate.

In the sense that they're simply not true. Or, the comments contain tons of profanity, display other kinds of disgusting prejudices that aren't supposed to be tolerated on DU. I haven't seen any of the comments I've alerted on get removed, though.

[Dr Ron]

24. I see two main problems

There are those on the far left who will never be satisfied with someone as reasonable as Kerry. This problem started in his Vietnam protest days.

Then there is the problem Joe Trippi started when he found ways to differentiate Dean from Kerry. It was all a bunch of BS to promote Dean, but the ideas stuck despite how absurd.

[whometense]

27. Is this something that happens in every single

democratic presidential campaign, or was what happened this past year unusual?

[TayTay]

25. Oh No, Whome needs an intervention!

I'm here for you sweetie! One Masshole to another, we can beat this thing. Just stay with me and breathe deeply. We'll get through this, I promise. Pic threads help.

The knives are out because people hate * and really, really wanted to win last year. Kerry was the guy leading the parade. So he gets the knives. This too shall pass. It is human nature to blame the lead guy for the failure. (Hey, the Red Sox never fire the players, they fire the manager. That's just the way it is.)

Personally, I don't really think John Kerry gives a shit about all this carping. If he did, he never would have run again after that viscious loss in '72. But he took some time, came to terms with the loss (deliberate terminology, you don't get over it, you come to terms with it. If you can get over it, you don't belong in public office) and moved on. Some people don't move on.

A lot of people can't come to terms with the human part of politics. Some people that you work your heart out for, lose. This is an inescapable fact of political life. People, even good people who are on the side of the angels, sometimes lose. Some people can't get that simple fact through their heads and wind up repeating the last war over and over and over looking for who made the errors and who to blame. The idea that everyone tried their best, that human errors were committed and that human error is unavoidable never sinks in.

I cannot promise you that it will get better. Politics, especially at this high a level, is about something. That's why losing hurts. You didn't lose, all your issues did. Good people pick themselves up, realize that they can still go on and make a difference (you know, we'll get 'em next time, okay.) I do know, from the letter that Kerry sent out today, that he knows what's real and what isn't. He was talking about the troops and about supporting them with more than just words. He's talked about the environment and how to sustain it and implement positive change that leaves a better world for our kids. He's talking about holding powerful people responsible for their actions, as the founders of the nation and the writers of the Constitution intended. If he can take a hit and bounce back, I figure, what the hell, so can I.

So hang in there girlfriend. When it gets a little weird and the shitstorm gets to you, seek shelter in a nice comfy spot with friends. We're there for you. We understand and will hold your hand and calm your frayed nerves. We know and, like you, despite it all, we still believe.

[whometense]

26. That was great. Thanks.

You know, that email this afternoon from the man himself really did pick me up, and donating to the USO made me feel even better.

I love this about him, that not only does he not give up, he also leads me to what I can do that will make a difference. I hope the USO knows that I arrived on their site through John Kerry's email. I'm quite sure right now there are people bitching and moaning out there :scared: about Kerry looking for credit (i.e. votes) through this, but I'm not gonna go look.

Kerry's tough, and I'm sure you're right that he doesn't care what a few losers are saying about him. On the other hand, it seriously distresses me that people could say such totally ignorant crap about him. Do you think they actually believe it? I mean, could someone in their right mind seriously think Ed Gillespie was working from within the Kerry campaign to subvert it?? Talk about your :tinfoilhat:!

[TayTay]

28. No, they don't really believe it

They are spewing for the sake of spewing. If you can move the blame off to someone else then you can make the ache in your heart of unfulfilled expectations go away. (Only it doesn't work, cuz it's not real.)

It's stupid. It's also a shame. There are genuine lessons that can be learned from last year. This idiotic blame game pushes the legitimate things that can be done to the side. It's self-defeating.

Try and let it roll off you. There are 71,000 + people on DU. About 20 of them are frequent complainers. To hell with them. I got better things to do than worry about some jerks who dump on the good guys. They can o screw themselves for all I care.

[WildEyedLiberal]

30. I feel the exact same way

I haven't been on DU too much because it makes me depressed of late. Sometimes I feel firey and want to fight the ignorant bastards here, but sometimes I just feel so weary of it all and can't deal with it. This week has been the latter. I think that Common Grounds trash on Kerry via the Boston Fucking Herald is what did it for me. I almost lose hope for liberalism when I read about the massive ignorance on the lefty "internets". I don't know. :evilfrown: I just love John and believe in him, and sometimes I feel really alone in doing so.

[TayTay]

31. Sweetie, it's a contact sport

Always has been, always will be. But, the reason that people stay si because it means something and it can also be a lot of fun.

[BlueIris]

33. Whometense, I can totally relate.

Dealing with the virulent Kerry bashers of the world is a tough thing to do. As I've posted before, I've actually had to stop attending DFA meetings for the chapter in my area (I can deal with some of the chapter's members in other settings, but not at the meetings I used to really enjoy going to) because the meetings' acknowledged organizers and leaders allow unfettered, inappropriate, vile, disgusting Kerry bashing to occur. It hurt me too much to continue subjecting myself to that crap. I had a lot of respect for that group's contributors before the election, for the work they put in for the Dems in our area which in no small way kept our state from going red. Seriously. Those folks had some of the best hearts of any people I've ever met, and I believe that they wanted what they wanted (Bush gone) for (most of) the right reasons. So, it was incredibly hard for me to not be able to hang out with them anymore. But I simply couldn't take listening to the bashing any longer. Psychologically, it wasn't worth it.

All I can say about the bashing going on at DU is that I've learned to tune a lot of it out, responding rarely, (because I can't see that it does any good) and only in cases where someone has posted something blatantly untrue about Kerry. As to who these people are? I think the other posters who've responded in your thread have it right, but from what I've personally observed, the bulk of them are partisan Democrats who don't have much meaningful information about any of the problems we're facing and likely supported another candidate for president in the primaries. Then again, I almost don't feel qualified to speculate about who and what the bashers represent. I don't understand them. I don't understand people who don't love Kerry, don't see that he's the one (something I saw almost instantly--after I bothered to sit down and really look at him and what he stood for). Those who don't like him let alone hate him? To me, they're minds must be very closed, or very small, or both.

Still, I've been giving your question some serious thought in recent weeks; it's my goal to find a way to make not only people lukewarm about Kerry but very hostile toward him, love him in the way that I do. He's the best.

[WildEyedLiberal]

34. OMG you just echoed my sentiments exactly

"I don't understand them. I don't understand people who don't love Kerry, don't see that he's the one (something I saw almost instantly--after I bothered to sit down and really look at him and what he stood for)."

OMG. You could have taken those words out of my mouth. I just can't really comprehend people who claim to be liberal Democrats who DON'T see how wonderful and amazing he is. It's right there! You have to be blind not to see what he is for yourself! Frankly, I've lumped all those who oppose/dislike Kerry into one larger group which includes lefty and righty freepers both. To my mind, if you don't support the man who represents exactly what noble public service should be, then you aren't on my side, regardless of what else you may believe. That may be unfair of me, but it's how I've come to feel after all this.