God I HATE GD

[Forever Free]

I spend the better part of an hour in flame wars defending Kerry, the DLC's Third Way, and Christianity.

Apparently, Kerry is a Republican, The Third Way is just Fascism Lite, and "Christianity = Terrorism". And I'm not kidding about that last one either. (Go check it out in GD, its locked now, but its called "Christian Fanaticism vs. Islamic Fanaticism")

Seriously, I need some aspirin after all that.

[Mass]

1. Touchy subject...

The subject was not christianity = terrorism. It was what fanatism is worst, and my feeling is that ALL fanatism is wrong.

As for New Democrat, why I disagree that Kerry is the prototype of the New Democrat, you fall on a couple of classic Kerry bashers.

[Forever Free]

3. Yeah the thread was on fanaticism

But one guy, (Ultralist?) equated Christianity to terrorism because it threatened its followers with the prospect of hell, which he says is used for "political gain".

I was primarily arguing against that. As well as other nutjobs who believe that we're actually INTENTIONALLY "mass-murdering" Iraqis.

Like I said so many times before, the rhetoric is just outta control. I feel downright conservative here at DU. Its utterly frustrating.

[Mass]

4. From what I can see, you are probably more conservative than many here

Nothing wrong with that.

[Forever Free]

5. Ironically, ANYWHERE else I would most definitely be called liberal

I feel so dirty being described as "conservative". :P

[Mass]

7. The problem is with them who are able to disagree in a friendly

manner, not with you.

[karynnj]

11. But I think virtually ALL of us who use this group as a home are

more conservative. I know I was liberal in college, when I cast my first vote in the primary for McGovern and I don't thing I've moved. I wonder if some of them are very young and trying to be as far out of the mainstream as they can be.

I do think they need to be more careful on the religious issues. Not having been here before the election, is some of it a reaction to the misuse of religion in the campaign. (I can't believe that God either picks countries to side with in wars or chooses political candidates - and if he did he would not be fooled by Karl Rove!)

[Mass]

12. This thread was the fact of half a dozen people

who are known for their extreme positions. They are not even representative of DU and probably not even Democrats (I suspect some of them to be trolls anyway).

[LittleClarkie]

35. I know what you mean

anywhere else I'm liberal. Here I'm a moderate.

[JohnKleeb]

38. Yep

I was one of the main liberals in my political science class, and I retain a lot of my radical views. Its my tone too I think.

[TayTay]

2. Oh dear!

virtual aspirin and a cool drink of water headed your way. (We need an emoticon that signifies this.)

Thanks for fighting the good fight. We need a good JK thread on this stuff. I am interested in hearing your views. (On all of 'em.)

What does Third Way mean to you?
New Democrat?
Future of Dem PArty vis a vis centrists vs Libs?

[blm]

6. Sorry but, imo, you missed the boat on Kerry's record.

Kerry has always been to the left of most New Democrats and is part of the lefty negotiators countering the centrists and the rightleaners in the effort to achieve SOME progress in policy.

But, to submit that he is an example of the New Dems is just plain wrong. Howard Dean actually would be a perfect example since his approach mirrored the philosophy of negotiating with left and right and achieve a centered policy.

But, Kerry would be one of the lefties doing the negotiating.

[Forever Free]

8. I respectfully disagree

While Kerry may vote more to the left on CERTAIN vvotes (the first Gulf War, the environment and such), I believe that he nevertheless personifies a "New Democrat" and the "Third Way". I think that would have been demonstrated if he had won last fall.

But Howard Dean and Bill Clinton are also definitely excellent examples of New Democrats.

[Mass]

9. I have to disagree with you on that

Kerry has never been part of the Third way (as far as I know) , which is composed of senators that are a lot more conservative than he is.

He is part of the new democrat, but is not a typical member. With Dorgan, they certainly are among the most liberal members of this organization.

Thanks god, they are part of those Democrats who do not think you need to go to the right to win.

[blm]

10. That's just too two-dimensional, and that is definitely NOT Kerry.

The best way to describe Kerry is that he believes strongly in GOOD, HONEST GOVERNANCE that represents ALL the people, and especially those least represented.

[Forever Free]

18. While Kerry can't be boxed into a neat little ideological category

In many ways, he agrees with the DLC regarding many issues concerning defense, veteran's benefits, and taxes. In fact, he IS listed as a member of the Senate New Democrat coalition. But that's not to say that he doesn't break with the other members from time to time.

[Mass]

19. DLC's members are not all of the same brand, thanks god.

Between Nelson (NE),Landrieu and Pryor who vote often with the Republicans and Kerry and Dorgan on the other side, there is probably more distance than between Kerry and Kennedy.

So what. I do not understand this need to categorize people in a box. Can't we just judge them on their individual merits?

[Forever Free]

20. Hey I'm not categorizing anyone.

That's exactly why I like Kerry. He can't be categorized.

I just hate all the anti-DLC bullshit out there.

[Mass]

22. I never refer to the word DLC

For me, it refers both with people I disagree a lot and to people I really like.

Most people who use it think to the founders of the movement, From and Reed, and ignore who is part of the DLC and who is not.

[JohnKleeb]

21. I would say

Kerry has more in common with Kennedy than he does with Landrieu. Anyhow these labels matter little to me because our very least favorite Senator, Senator Douchebag from Virginia is a member of something called the Senate Centrist Coalition, George Allen isnt in the middle of his party, hes in the firm right wing of it. So to me at least these labels are meaningless.

[Mass]

23. Exactly

As are Landrieu and Lieberman. Whatever I think of those two, they are infinitively better than Senator Douchebag.

[JohnKleeb]

24. I can tell you having him as a senator, yes for sure

Landrieu is becoming what Breaux was, she was actually the more liberal of the two while he was there but since hes retired, I guess shes determined to be the most conservative after Nelson. Ive actually met her, was not impressed, I can give her slack easier than Lieberman however since she is from a red state, Lieberman however agh. But still rather them than Allen anytime, I hate having Allen as a senator.

[GRLMGC]

25. ahahhahahahahahaha

fucking Allen. Senator Douchebag indeed

[JohnKleeb]

26. Yeah and you know what

If Warner didnt occassionally break from the republican leadership and the far right, we would be in competion with Oklahoma for worse senate duo. Warner thankfully isnt a right wing nut job on issues that hit close to Virginia. Warner interestingly enough didnt back Oliver North in 94, didnt back an extremeist republican for Lt Governor, he supported our local tax referendum. He's supported some gun control measures and pro choice measures too. So we're lucky in Virginia that we don't have have two nutjobs. The odd thing about Warner though taking those sometimes more liberal positions is that he's not from the liberal area of the state, he's from Winchester which is pretty conservative. There's actually from what I am observating, a schism in the Virginia GOP.

[GRLMGC]

27. question

Is it true that VA used to be a Democratic state until relatively recently? Also what the hell is a commonwealth?

[JohnKleeb]

29. Answers

1. No, actually Virginia was one of the first Southern States to go republican oddly enough, its only gone Democratic once since my dad was born here in 1951 and that was in the LBJ landslide of 64, Eisenhower won here twice and Nixon won in 1960, it was also one of the few southern states that Jimmy Carter did not win.
2. Commonwealth, I believe is just a special name, I believe Massachuetts may also be a commonwealth.
Virginia Id say was the first southern state to go republican but this was before the famous Southern Stragety, I guess Virginians noticed before their other southern counterparts that the national democratic party was quite liberal, I am not sure what made it Republican in the 50's and 1960.

[Mass]

30. MA also is a commonwealth, you're right

I dont know what it means. May be TayTay or whometense can tell us where the name comes from.

[JohnKleeb]

31. I bet its English

in origin since both our states were originally settled by the English.

[whometense]

33. Ask, and ye shall, etc., etc.

But I admit I had to look it up ;-)

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Commonwealth

United States

Four states in the United States officially designate themselves "commonwealths": Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia. In these cases, this is merely a name and has no constitutional impact. They thus emphasize that they have a "government based on the common consent of the people", instead of a government legitimized through their earlier Royal Colony status that was derived from the King of England. This transition occurred in 1776, when the need arose to express a change in their legal status consistent with the Revolutionary War. Kentucky, at this time, was but a county of Virginia, but chose to retain the Commonwealth descriptor when it became a separate state. While the term "commonwealth" has the same legal and economic meaning as "state," the four regions that chose to designate themselves commonwealths probably did so as a reference to the earlier Commonwealth period in England which ended in 1660, when that nation was not ruled by a king.

A U.S. state is any one of the 50 states (four of which officially favor the term commonwealth) which, together with the District of Columbia, form the United States of America. ...

<snip>

Additionally, the term "commonwealth" is also used in the U.S. to describe the political relationship between the United States and the overseas unincorporated territories of Puerto Rico and of the Northern Marianas (see: commonwealth (U.S. insular area)).

[GRLMGC]

32. Oh, okay

that kinda sucks considering its not the deep South so you think it'd be closer to Maryland. Then again, it may be wealthier, I'm not sure. Is it becoming more and more Republican through each election cycle?

[JohnKleeb]

34. Actually Virginia may be one of the first southern states to go blue

Way I look at it, the area where I live is diverse and yes affluent, the people who live in my area are moderates I would say. Virginia will be democratic hopefully because the increasing numbers of minorities who move here and the fact Northern Virginia shows no signs of being a huge population centre.

[Noisy Democrat]

41. I'm pretty sure

the DLC leaders just put people's names on the list whether they ask them to or not. They listed Obama for a bit, though Obama insisted that they remove his name. I'm not sure whether Kerry is really a DLCer. He seems quite different in many ways.

[BlueIris]

36. Heh. Got to love ACCURATE descriptions of his record. Thanks.

No, seriously, thank you, blm.

[BlueIris]

37. Just chiming in with more GD HATE.

And HATE again. 'Kay, y'all know me, I can't truly hate anything anymore; I use the word euphamistically, still. And GD? Deserves it. Once again, could people please learn to read? Then use that literacy to read accurate things about Kerry? Thanks. That's all I ask.

[JohnKleeb]

13. Agh

I dont think someone with a record like Teddy Kennedy is a republican, I am not a fan of the third way but its not fascist lite, I dont even think Bush and Co are true fascists, and Christianity like all religion has its fanatics. You really should stay in here and the lounge, keep ya sanity high ya know. Anyhow I think the best examplification in a politican for the third way is Clinton and in the senate perhaps Lieberman and best of a leftist would hmmm I dunno a Barbara Lee, Cythina McKinney, or hmm Jim McDermott type, cant think of an equiv in the senate, I think Kerry is in between that. I dont see him as a strong new democrat, you can disagree with me, new democrats are typically more law and order on crime and Kerry has a liberal position on capital punishment, drug use, etc. He did however vote for Welfare Reform but it was I believe a reluctant vote. I remain not a big fan of the DLC and the third way but from what I know about it, its actually more liberal than it was when first formed in the 80's, since I believe early members were proponents of abortion restrictions and things like that. Anyhow I think of Kerry as being a traditional liberal if anything.

[GRLMGC]

14. ahahahaha

DLC! THE DEVIL!!!!11one!!111

They are paranoid fucks who think the DLC, merely a faction of the Democratic party are trying to take over the world. They are so fucking stupid. I personally don't agree w/ the DLC but live and let live for God's sake.

[WildEyedLiberal]

15. The DLC is responsible for EVERYTHING EVIL EVER

EVERRRRRRRR!!!!!111!!one!!11eleven1

[GRLMGC]

16. You know it

I'm gonna get elected to office and join the fucking DLC just out spite. I swear

[JohnKleeb]

17. I am sure you two remember DC

Talk about obession with a party faction and they claim the DLC is out to get the left wing of the party, anyhow I am gonna do a little research project when I get a new political almanac.
My goal to find out if the RMMs and leadership in both houses are members of the DLC, Blue Dogs, and or Progressive Caucus. Gotta save up for that book first. Wont take me long of course but I need the book.

[ginnyinWI]

28. here you go

Thanks for watching Kerry's back :).

[BlueIris]

39. For the official record, kids, GD is still APPALLING. For Kerry fans

and for well, everyone else with a working brain. I'm staying out of there for the rest of the summer.

[JohnKleeb]

40. Ive come to the realization that the DLC fear many have is just fear

I did a spreadsheet listing the leaderships and RMMs of both houses of congresses and included former president Clinton too just cuz.