I almost answered a naysayer, but stopped

[LittleClarkie]

It's getting redundant.

Much as I hate to see him called a coward, bumping the thread isn't helping either.

I was also thinking about what I said about Michael Moore last night. Do you know I felt more supported by Eminem and Green Day than I did by MoveOn.org or any of the negativity prone Lefty Freepers? I still love that vid by ol' Marshall. And "American Idiot" is a near perfect description of the current climate re: the media, even if they did write it for the beginning of the war 2 years ago. I don't think their support hurt. I might be wrong.

Meanwhile, I'm rattling a cage or two elsewhere on the board. Someone posted "Why the Progressives are going to save the Democratic Party," to which I replied "Why we wish you wouldn't."

[JohnKleeb]

1. By progressive they are often intolerant of other viewpoints

Thats not very progressive to me.

[whometense]

2. Agreed.

I wonder by what right they claim that label. John Kerry is a true progressive. So, wtf?

[JohnKleeb]

3. I dont know but I am sick of their purism

They're so hypocritical too, willing to give democrats they like slack for being moderate on some issues but will flame Kerry or other dems for even having some moderate view. They're all about rhetoric.

[angrydemocrat]

5. Let Me Put It This Way About These Assholes

They are all a bunch of illiterate dumbasses:dunce: And it is clearly obvious that their what little brain they had left fell to their ass and they have yet to have it removed, because the shit cannot make it to the toilet therefor instead it goes to the other direction.:hurts:
I for one wish they would get this problem fixed because the shit coming out their mouth it truly rank.x( These people better pray everyday and thank the lord that the size of your brain doesn't determine the size of their peter or titty's because it if did they would all surely be centimeter peters and flat chested walking dumbasses.:hangover: And to be that dumb and have the looks to match would be a sure tragedy that they couldn't hack.:cry: Others need to rememer when it comes to dumbasses like these their bark is worse than their bite.:eyes: Their opinions are as useless ass tits on a boar hog:boring: So let them run around sniffing each others asses like a bunch in heat :crazy: Let them scratch, bark, and bite among themselves for that is all they know how to do:nopity: Because when the sun rises and sheds light on their true stupidity:wow: They will all be running and scrammbling like hell like chickens with their heads cut off:scared: For being afraid their dumbass is the next in line for having their head put on the chopping block}( and big bad Johnny on his way with the ax to chop it off:evilgrin: and momma Teresa waiting at the chance to fry them up.:7 So all these illiterate dumbasses have their day coming and it won't be a good one for them :spank: but for the Kerrycrats we all need to remember.......


"For America, the hope is there. The sun is rising. Our best days are still to come!"

John Kerry and the Kerrycrats :yourock:

[angrydemocrat]

7. We have to learn to all to ignore these assholes.

We need to quit giving them the pleasure of having people to argue with. Because if we were to do that they would be lost and eventually if it didn't stop it would slow down. All we do is add fuel to the fire by arguing with these assholes.

[whometense]

10. Totally agree.

Same as trying to convert a Bushie - fuggedaboudit. Plus, it keeps those threads at the top and encourages them.

Ignore, Ignore, Ignore. Just like the other trolls.

[bunny planet]

26. I actually converted two Bushies to Kerry, it was actually easier than

convincing a bitter Deaniac.

[ginnyinWI]

4. yeah really it's all gas--best to stand out of the way!! n/t

[angrydemocrat]

6. LOL

That is one way to put it. LOL But it is true.

[sandnsea]

8. Please use "Leftists"

Progressives and Liberals seek to move forward. Don't let Leftists continue to co-opt legitimate political views by using the terms Progressive or Liberal. The negativity prone anti-everything crowd are leftists. Many of them here really are, they're true socialists and have absolutely no desire to work with the Democratic Party. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with creating division by pretending they're the new liberal or progressive wing. They want to take down the entire capitalist system, Democrats, Republicans, the whole thing. They're entitled to their views but they should stand on their true political agenda and quit trying to infiltrate the Democratic Party when their real goal is to destroy it.

[angrydemocrat]

12. I agree

But I have come to a point when it comes to these fools at DU it is like talking to a block wall. Because I don't find that kind of negativity anywhere else. This place is terrible when it comes to that. And I must spank myself :spank: because I have let these people rub off on me some. I have let them anger me to the point I say crazy shit at times. And I have gotten awful about cussing since I have been here. I mean I'm not saying I never cussed before because I'm human and I have but lately I must admit I have gotten awful and I have got to stop and get back to normal. So I must stay away from these people and straighten up LOL.

[ginnyinWI]

13. I think a lot of them are very young and somewhat confused,

and like to hear themselves talk within an echo chamber of like-minded people on DU. Black-and-white thinking is one clue to them being young, but that thinking is by no means limited to the young!

[JI7]

14. actually, most of them aren't very young

which makes it even worse. if they were mostly young then it would be a different thing and i guess you can write it off as them being naive or something else similar.

[LittleClarkie]

23. I think the Deaniacs are mostly young

as they are taken with his attitude and keep disregarding his record and such.

Some might be psychedelic relics, though.

[JohnKleeb]

24. I dunno

For all I heard about Dean being the candidate of the youth, I hear Kerry won them in Iowa and the opponents of the war. I myself am young, never really did see why Dean was so popular among younger voters, then again I admit it, I have a lot of old fashion qualities to myself, unlike many younger voters, I am not only a social liberal but I am also pretty economically left too, I read in the papers that many of the younger Dean supporters also liked his fiscal economic policies which I myself was no fan of, I actually told the congressional office that I will likely work for in the next month that I am more of a person who likes economic issues more so than social issues, and they said that was surprising because most young people are interested in the social issues which I am as well but economic issues are what make me a democrat more than anything.

[JI7]

25. right, Kerry did win the younger voters

and he won the anti war voters. in fact Edwards got more anti war voters than Dean also.

[WildEyedLiberal]

17. You're exactly right

These lefty freepers do NOT have much in common with the average Democrat, let alone the average American. Their views are extreme, and they seek to undermine the party. At college, I'm surrounded by these types - the extreme left wing, socialist, anti-American anti-capitalist anti-military anti-meat anti-everything people. They have never had anything in common with the Democratic Party, and likely only voted for Kerry (if they did) because they find Bush so foul and odious. In fact, dislike of Bush is likely the only thing we share with these people. So we need to stop pretending that they are a valuable and important faction of the party, because they aren't.

And unfortunately, DU is infested with these faux "liberals." The minute one of them threatens to never again vote for a Dem, you know they're lefty freepers, and in my opinion, they are MORE than welcome to leave the party. I know we have a big tent, but it's not big enough to welcome the kinds of people who seek to destory the American way of life, because really, they do. They're like the extreme left version of neocons, and every bit as dangerous. The only difference is that they do not control a major political party like the neocons do - and I intend to keep it that way.

[bunny planet]

27. they should take it to leftyunderground. Is there such a place?

[paulk]

9. I've been thinking about this a lot lately

based on some personal observations of Republicans I know - one of whom voted for Kerry btw - and I'm beginning to think that M Moore and that whole crowd of "negativity prone lefty freepers" does more damage in the long run than good.

Not that I disagree with what Moore says, necessarily - I just disagree with the way he says it. That goes for the loopy left, too.
It's the constant negativity - the constant "America is at fault for everything that's wrong in the world" - it's a real turn off for a lot of people. They feel personally attacked by that attitude and wind up defending things they don't even believe in.

It's the negativity of it all - people want positive messages - they don't need to have it constantly pointed out how fucked up things are - they can see that for themselves.

There also seems to be a real element of self-victimization here - I see it in the constant backbiting on this board - almost like there's a need to lose, a need to have someone to blame. Wish I could explain it better.

[sandnsea]

15. Exactly

Which is one of the reasons we're working at making our blog a place that focuses on the positive outcomes of liberal policies. www.lightupthedarkness.org (In case you missed it, lol)

For example, I think it's much better to push green logging and green lumber than constantly fighting to protect the varmints spotted owls feed on. Pepole are sick of that. But if we can change the focus to environmental responsibility, while protecting old growth, and explain all the reasons to go in that direction, we can change our image and make real progress. But you have to fight the far left on that as much as you have to educate the right.

[Withywindle]

16. The thing I do like about Moore is...

the way he uses humor. He really pisses me off sometimes, but he's very very good at using satire and comedy to get his points across. The funny stuff in F9/11 and Bowling for Columbine and Roger & Me made the stuff that wasn't funny AT ALL hit home that much harder. I also like his function as lightning rod, the court jester who can say things that politicians can't but SOMEBODY has to.

So even though he makes me mad a lot, I'll stick up for him. I don't equate him at all with those black-and-white-thinking, humorless, I'M RIGHT BECAUSE I SHOUT LOUDER! lefty-freeps.

[TayTay]

18. Michael Moore's job is to provoke

He has never pretended otherwise. He has always portrayed himself as a college dropout from Flint, Michigan with a leftwing viewpoint. He does not point out solutions, nor should he be expected to. His function is to turn over the rocks and try to get us to see what is under them. He is not a registered Democrat and had Kerry been elected he would have continued to turn over rocks. It is what he does.

His value right now is very great. We have a media that is basically all singing the same song. The war was an example. Did you read the sickening description of Judith Miller from the high and lofty New York Times and her 'reports' on Iraq? That was one of the most disgusting displays of journalistic hubris and decay I have ever seen. (To stand on a tank in Iraq and propel the troops forward, to cheer on the war and actively have the military bend rules and change plans to accomodate a journalist is beyond the pale. This is what warm places in hell are made for.) We need a Moore to try to get across another point of view. That is all he does, offer another point of view. I am profoundly grateful to him for doing so. I had more good discussions this past summer over Fahrenheit than just about anything else. My RW sister-in-law asked to borrow the movie, of course she expected to laugh through it, and was surprised she didn't. Moore offered a chance to say it is patriotic to challenge the official government view, that not every American believe the Bush bullshit and that even Gold Star mothers question why their children died. It is a worthwhile thing to bring up.

[LittleClarkie]

22. I like him too

I just want people to stop blaming Kerry for the entire loss. They need to recognize what they did wrong too.

[LittleClarkie]

19. It sounds like a martyr complex

the need to be the victim, to be persecuted.

I had a conversation with my gay, Bush-voting Barista friend. We agreed that there is an anti-corporate and anti-rich bias among some leftists. Even when a company is doing good things and has progressive policy like Starbucks, they are automatically evil for being a large company.

Starbucks buys fair trade coffee, and even when they're the sole buyer in an area, they pay market or above for their coffee, more if the grower is being environmentally concious.

They have a partner benefits program that I wish more companies had.

And yet they are evil to some. They may drive out some mom and pop coffeehouses. But then again, I stopped patronizing some of those places because they can't make a strong cup of coffee to save their lives, and Starbucks can.

Buy Sumatra from them this month, by the way. They're matching the amount of money spent on that coffee for tsunami relief.

So is the president of my church bulletin printing company. I was rather proud of the guy for doing that. He's the owner, so it's coming out of his pocket.

[GRLMGC]

20. Just out of curiousity

Why exactly did your friend vote for Bush? Does it have to do with what you discussed, which, I think, made good point.

[LittleClarkie]

21. I didn't quite get it, since he's a fiscal conservative

and recognizes that Bush isn't. He also recognizes that many people who vote for Bush are against what he is. He just said that overall what Bush wanted to do for the economy matched his philosophy.

He also said alot of his activist gay friends were SOOO pro-Kerry and were angry with him for not even being sure how he was going to vote until right before the election. The sick thing is he was the only one of his friends who actually voted.

He said they were activists, but still basically lazy. How the hell can you be a lazy activist.

[paulk]

28. there definitely is an anti-corporate, anti-rich bias on the left

The Republicans pull a lot of votes that way - they advertise themselves as the party of the American Dream. They embrace the rich - and sell the idea that you, too can be the same. People that go for that vision aren't bothered by the fact that they're being screwed by Republican policies - because *someday*, they're gonna be sitting in that catbird seat, too.

The left too often gets backed into the corner of hoping the economy fails - and fail to understand some of the basic tenets underlying what this country is all about. It's what we get drilled into us K-12, through our media, through the very fabric of our society. America is about success. And success in America means wealth. Love it or hate it. Republican voters don't despise the rich - they look up to them as models of who they want to be.

And the whole anti-corporate thing - the corporate influence on our government is definitely something to be concerned about - but the attitude that ALL corporations are evil is just childish. It's not going to change - corporations are going to be here whether we like it or not - what needs to happen is better government regulation. The government needs to make the playing field level - which the Democratic Party does a lot better than the Republicans...

Starbucks - now that's the subject of another post.

[JI7]

11. they are NOT Progressives

just because they claim they are doesn't mean they are.

John Kerry has one of the most progressive records in congress. he has the BEST record on the environment of ALL members. his environmental policies would have a positive and progressive affect on things like jobs, better environment, national security etc.