Excuse the snarkiness

[politicasista]

I am not usually this way. I have taken some days off from here, but I am tired of all the 2008 polls/threads and negativity.

The story about the Ohio father of a dead soldier somewhat made me sad because he didn't blame the repukes that still support Bush's war, but blame Bush and Dems who voted for the IWR. Even worse, that story brought out the same people here that say they will NEVER vote for an IWR candidate.

I agree with karynnj and FreedomAngel that it sad that this IWR vote has divided Dems and made Kerry and others seem like they supported this illegal war when Kerry is pushing for an investigation with the DSM.

As I said in Goldeneye's thread. Sometimes I still wished that Kerry and other good Dems listened to the Congressional Black Caucus because they knew the truth about Bush and knew he couldn't be trusted. I guess it was from watching Congresswoman Maxine Waters' CA rally about ending the Iraq war.

Kudos to everyone for holding their own out there. :hi:

[sandnsea]

1. We'd still be in a war

Without the IWR, we just wouldn't have a truck load of evidence to prove Bush was willing to do anything for his war. All we'd have is no inspectors, an invasion, and no UN reports that there was proof before the war that there were no WMD. Without the inspections, there'd be no concrete proof that Bush had lied. Without the IWR, no inspections. It was the right vote, I wish the Congressional Black Caucus could figure that out.

[fedupinBushcountry]

2. I agree

John Kerry signed the Resolution (resolution is not war), to get the Inspectors in plain and simple. At the time Busah was ready to go to war with or without a resolution, and the word was as early as late November early December, John Kerry did the right thing, and I was anti-war. Bush is the only one to blame for this war, he wanted it and now over 1800 soldiers are dead, many American civilians are dead and tens of thousands Iraqis are dead, and the idiot is on vacation for a month. How many vacations has he taken since this war started? He should be ashamed and his judgement day will come, and I don't think that born again mentality is going to help him on that day.

[karynnj]

3. If there's any justice, even in this life, he will end up a pyriah

like Nixon. With the way everything is going, his name will likely be mud ten years from now. He doesn't seem to have many real friends - most of his administration were from his dad's circle. Once he is out of office - I bet a lot of people too intimidated to speak now will.

I wonder if he has enough of a conscience for it to hurt.

[politicasista]

4. They probably have

I know they have been the most vocal group in opposition to this war.

Wouldn't it put Kerry in a better position (if he decides to run) in 2008 if he had opposed the war? There are some who think the Dems need an Anti-War candidate, but that's a long way off. Or am I missing something?

BTW: I am still cool with Kerry.

[sandnsea]

5. His plan was to start withdrawal this summer, now

Wouldn't that have been a better plan to get behind last year?

[JI7]

6. that's so fucking depressing

i wish those who yelled the loudest about how anti war or liberal they are would actually do something to show it.

and i'm not talking about the cbc here as most if not all of them were totally behind Kerry. but more about certain others.

it's not just that but his plan for the environment which would help avoid this type of shit in the first place. imagine if Carter had been re-elected and been able to implement some of his alternative energy plans. even with all the flaws , long term he would have done a lot of good. instead we got Reagan's ass and this administration is a long term result of that presidency.

[politicasista]

8. I agree actions speak louder than words

but some people would rather complain then do something about it.

[sandnsea]

12. Carter

Another good Dem, trashed. And that's our own leadership that does that crap. No wonder we haven't got any elder statesmen who are respected when we really need it. We've been helping the Republicans beat the hell out of them since McGovern.

[politicasista]

7. It would have.

Another question. With the increasing casulties in Iraq, do you think Kerry might have no other choice but to come out like Kennedy and say Iraq is a quagmire or like Vietnam all over again and it's time to bring the troops home now? It seems like it's getting worse everyday.

[Mass]

9. Kennedy has changed his mind since.

Last time I heard him, he said he did not want a timetable, but that Bush must give a roadmap to the Senate of what he will do.

I do not think they are that much apart on this issue.

[sandnsea]

10. Nobody but nobody has a plan to bring the troops home now

NOBODY. It's the same empty rhetoric the far let has been running on for 3 years. Just like when Kucinich said he was anti-war, but supported inspectors going into Iraq, with absolutely no plan on how to make it happen. Just like Ralph Nader, who's so called withdrawal plan was exactly the same as Kerry's.

When you read the actual plans, resolutions introduced, etc.; they all call for a timeframe with milestones and specific steps that need to be taken. The exact same steps Kerry has been talking about since summer of 2002, and Clark too I should add. It's all a matter of words and as much a fight between the left and the rest of the Dems as anything. And people continue to die.

[politicasista]

11. What you guys have said makes sense

[sandnsea]

13. I want this war over

And I think the confusion over that vote and "withdraw now" talk has hurt. I think hammering on the real failures in Iraq and supporting a realistic plan would get us alot further. There's no talk of the UN or NATO or the Arab League anymore. No talk of what the NGO's are doing or need in order to do more. No talk of how we're doing in getting the money to Iraqi businesses to build the economy. No talk of putting US troops on the border and bringing other countries in to secure the cities, so we aren't the occupiers. It's just partisan rhetoric from all corners. I get so frustrated. I don't mean to snap at you.

[politicasista]

14. And some in GDP say that

General Clark has a plan to get out of Iraq too. (Of course they'll jump all over his saying that it's the best out of all the dems) sigh.

[sandnsea]

15. Maybe it is the best

But I'm sure it doesn't include immediate withdrawal and he doesn't say it does either. The ones I get frustrated with are the ones who say they're for immediate withdrawal, but their plans don't match their words.

[karynnj]

16. Did they actually say what it was or link to anything?

If he actually has laid out a plan (and he certainly has the background to do it), it would be interesting to see how close to Kerry's it is. Clark was among the best surrogates for Kerry on defense issues and, if he didn't agree with him then, he certainly appeared to.

I know that Clark was on Fox after Bush's speech, but I had on Larry King's show where Bob Costus (?) had Kerry and McCain. (Kerry looked and sounded so much better than McCain, who was handicapped by not wanting to bash Bush.)