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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 06:31 PM
Original message
Kerry and McCain going out to Lunch together is enough to make news.


Rumors of another McCain ticket
By Albert Eiseleand By Jeff Dufour

During the last presidential campaign, there was much talk about a Kerry-McCain ticket after Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) sounded out Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) about joining him on a bipartisan fusion ticket.

McCain obviously turned Kerry down, but as the 2008 election approaches there are signs that an equally intriguing McCain-Kerry ticket could be in the works. If such an improbable thing comes to pass, its genesis might well be traced back to a one-on-one breakfast meeting July 27, when the two decorated Vietnam veterans huddled for more than an hour at La Colline restaurant on Capitol Hill.

Fellow diners said the pair was engaged in earnest conversation throughout the breakfast, although Kerry spokesman David Wade characterized it simply as a chat between two “longtime friends.”

The meeting came in the wake of McCain’s increasingly critical stance on the Bush administration’s conduct of the war on terrorism, particularly the treatment of suspected terrorists at prison camps in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. McCain, who spent years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam’s Hanoi Hilton, led the fight just before the August recess to add an amendment to the defense appropriations bill prohibiting harsh treatment of detainees held in American custody, despite personal lobbying by Vice President Cheney.

McCain rebutted the administration’s argument that the legislation would tie its hands in dealing with people who are not POWs but “terrorists” by declaring on the Senate floor that it’s not “about who they are. It’s about who we are.”

Guess it’s unlikely there will be a Swift Boat Veterans for Truth campaign if McCain and Kerry team up in 2008.

http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/UndertheDome/081005.html
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. This makes no more sense than the other way around
I really can't see what's in it for the VP, who has almost no constitutional role. This seems more tongue in cheek than real. In fact, the horrible truth is only in the awful case of McCain dying would Kerry benefit. (This more than anything shows why a unity ticket can't win.)

Having met neither of them - it could be they were talking about joint legislation - something they've done in the past. Or simply talking to repair a previously valued friendship that last year severely damaged.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Eh, it's August, recess, nothing much going on
Edited on Wed Aug-10-05 08:11 PM by TayTay
So a simple breakfast meeting gets turned into something it is not. I think it was probably just two friends talking about current events.

I still don't trust McCain. I'm not sure how I feel about the obvious rapprochement that has occurred, but then again, it's not for me to say.

Hey, Joe Biden was queried on The Daily Show about running with McCain. Highly unlikely as well.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Even more to the point,
I can't imagine Kerry trusts McCain. Forgive? Maybe. Forget? Not in this lifetime.

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I hope you are right
Edited on Wed Aug-10-05 10:39 PM by karynnj
I assume that as they are members of the Senate of only 100 members they will work together (for the good of the country), but I doubt they could ever return to being trusted friends.

I think this may be more on Kerry's side. He was so quick to organize the other veterans to defend any Senate veteran who was attacked - that I can imagine it hurt when McCain made one statement in his defense - then whined when Kerry tried to use it. It was clear though that Kerrey and especially Cleland felt the same loyalty to him as Kerry did to them. That McCain choose to ignore purple heart band aids makes me ignore his heroism.

Kerry's heroism was based on courageously using his intelligence to try methods that could possibly keep his men safer. McCain's heroism was based on refusing an early return from VN (as a disgraced service man) vs bravely holding out.
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Dr Ron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Makes even less sense
Neither is likely to want to be the other's VP.

There was some logic to Kerry having McCain due to the need to go up against an incumbent in war time. While I wouldn't like McCain for VP, he'd be pretty harmless and a Kerry McCain ticket would be far preferable to Bush Cheney, and McCain would have increased the chances for victory.

I can't see any reason why McCain would have Kerry. As Republicans go, even though he doesn't really deserve it, McCain does a good job of bringing in non-Republican voters. If McCain gets the nomination, most likely he would need someone to appease the religious right to try to keep them from sitting at home rather than voting. Having Kerry on the ticket would keep many Republicans at home, and few Democrats would vote for a ticket with a Democrat as VP over a ticket with a Democrat as Presidiential candidate.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe they were just making nice
clearing the air. I bet that was all it was.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm sure. The reporter has no idea what they were talking about yet
manages to write an entire article full of conjecture.

I think it is good that they are talking considering how contentious the Senate has been - but only if McCain will stop being a rubber stamp for BushCo.
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Island Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is similar to why
JK has said he didn't really like being seen going out to dinner with the ladies when he was single - apparently, people see him eating and feel compelled to make up stories about what's really going on in his life. Sometimes a meal is just a meal. :crazy:
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I'm happy they had breakfast
John McCain represents, ideologically, as close as you're going to get to a real conservative. John Kerry, on the other hand, is a bona fide liberal from Massachusetts. One supported the Vietnam War to the bitter end, the other protested against it. And yet, they were able to put these differences aside to work together on the POW/MIA issue and normalizing relations with Vietnam. They were even able to be good friends.

Then presidential ambitions and partisanship, disappointments and betrayals, appeared to obliterate this revered Washington friendship, and it would seem that raw, bitter partisan bickering would rule over trying to find common ground. But, alas, hallelujah, one forgave the other, and there is yet hope for mankind in Washington . . .

Okay, call me crazy for being the only member of the JK forum who doesn't hate John McCain, but I NEED this friendship. It's one of those great stories in politics and I want it to continue, so that when these guys are old fogies, they can still get together, bicker over the world, yet still call each other friends . . . please forgive my reconciliation tone, but I can't help myself.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You're not alone
I had a lot of regret over the apparent difficulties last summer in this friendship. I liked the fact that Kerry and McCain had collaborated over the years on so many things. It's the sort of thing that Senators, mature, forward thinking and patriotic Senators are supposed to do for the good of the country they serve: get together and hammer out compromises that work for a varied constituency.


http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?050530fr_archive01

In 1984, thirteen years after that protest at the Capitol, John McCain, by then a United States representative from Arizona, went to Massachusetts to campaign against Kerry, a first-time Senate candidate. At a rally in the North End of Boston, McCain spoke in support of the Republican candidate, a businessman named Ray Shamie. "I hadn't met John Kerry," McCain told me. In Boston, conservative opponents had tagged Kerry as Ho Chi Minh's candidate. McCain, in his appearance for Shamie, talked about the events of April, 1971. "I said he shouldn't have thrown his medals on the steps, and that I heard about it while I was in prison."

John McCain has never changed his mind about Kerry's participation in that antiwar demonstration, but he has changed his mind about the man. Much sets the two apart. Kerry is tall and lean, with carefully coiffed dark hair, a sharp nose and chin, and a mouth that seems small for his face, which perhaps explains why his expression falls into a smile only with reluctance. He could be cast in any movie as the patrician senator. McCain looks more like a senator's friendly appliance repairman. He is stocky, with washed-out white hair and the slightly pasty skin of a man who has been through something. But a smile comes into McCain's face like a boat into its slip. McCain is the son and grandson of admirals, while Kerry's mother was a Boston Brahmin and his father a Foreign Service officer. Kerry, a liberal Democrat, is at ease in the role of Senator Edward Kennedy's junior partner; McCain is proud to hold Barry Goldwater's Senate seat. Kerry came out of Vietnam as a leading critic of the war, McCain as one of its few true heroes.

Nevertheless, their names have become linked, both through their surprising friendship and through their work together on the Select Committee. "Kerry-McCain" is said as if it were one word. It describes legislation they have co-sponsored, and defines an unusual place in the political landscape. This past June, for example, a Kerry-McCain measure provided millions of dollars in compensation for the "lost commandos"covert agents from South Vietnam whom the C.I.A. had long ago cut loose. "Our relationship is now so easy," McCain told me, "this latest, on the commandos . . . was a two-minute conversation. We didn't have to explore each other's views or anything like that. We both thought alike, and we just did it." Last month, when a CNBC talk show wanted comments on the United States missile attacks against Iraq, Kerry and McCain appeared as a duo. Across the boundaries of ideology, the men have formed a potent bipartisan partnership, grounded in a common, if rarely articulated, experience of the loss, grief, and bitterness that marked the generation of Americans who fought the war in Vietnam and fought against it.

McCain has long since eaten the words he uttered for Ray Shamie in 1984, and it is a good thing for John Kerry that he has. This year, Kerry, up for relection, is being challenged by Massachusetts' popular Republican governor, William Weld. After two terms, Kerry has an impressive record nationally and locally, but in Massachusetts politics he is always overshadowed by Ted Kennedy, and now the contrast between his hyper-formality and Weld's self-mocking frivolitythis summer, Weld leaped into the Charles River fully clothedhas him in trouble: he is in a dead heat with Weld in the polls. Kerry's refusalor inabilityto play the role either of the breezy backslapper or of the sincere self-revealer seems to leave Clinton-era voters cold. At a time when the values of the sitcom and the soap opera prevail, Kerry's reserve may mean that his best hope for November is pinned to the President's coattails.


And from another New Yorker article (My favorite ever written on Kerry, btw) http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/?040126fr_archive02

I wasnt very close to John before that, John McCain recalls. I thought he was standoffish and pedantic. Actually, noI was the standoffish one, because I didnt agree with what hed done, the protest where they threw away their medals. In fact, McCain had campaigned against Kerry during the general election of 1984. But I gained a great deal of respect, and affection, for John during those P.O.W.-M.I.A. hearings. He was a lot more mature, a lot more patient than I was. Kerry was especially helpful when some of the more extreme P.O.W.-movement types testified before the committee. Id see the way some of these guys were exploiting the families of those missing in action, and Id begin to get angry, McCain went on, and John would sense it and put his hand on my arm to calm me down before Id loseMcCain paused and smiledmy effectiveness.

Kerry and McCain went to Vietnam together; they visited the cell where McCain had been held as a prisoner of war. Just to stand there alone in this tiny cell with McCain, just to look at this guy who was now a United States senator, and my friend, in the very place where hed been tortured, and kept for so many years, not knowing if he might live, Kerry began a sentence one day, sitting in his Capitol officeand then he seemed unable to finish the thought, unwilling to break through his public reserve. We found this common ground in this far-off place.

After more than a year of research and eight trips to Vietnam, Kerry managed to cajole a unanimous vote from his committeeincluding two Republicans, Bob Smith, of New Hampshire, and Chuck Grassley, of Iowa, who had been banging the P.O.W. drum the loudestin favor of a report saying it was very unlikely that any Americans had been left behind in Vietnam. It was the sort of labor-intensive, quietly useful work that other senators notice and respect. The committees unanimity made it possible for Bill Clinton to normalize relations with Vietnam, in 1995. In a practical way, Kerry had at last brought an end to the war that had dominated so much of his adult life.

There was a personal consequence as well. The time Kerry spent with McCainand, to a lesser extent, with Bob Kerrey and Chuck Robbcompleted the transformation that the Doghunters had begun. He was no longer a political loner; he was, finally, part of a distinct, bipartisan, and emotionally intense group: the Vietnam combat veterans in the United States Senate. (Max Cleland, of Georgia, and Chuck Hagel, of Nebraska joined the group in 1996; Kerrey and Robb departed in 2000.) They took common positions on veterans issues, and sometimes on questions of war and peace, but they were most passionately united when one or another of them was attacked.


Yeah, I am glad that have reconciled. This was, actually, a great story. And it was, and I hope will be, good for the nation.
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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. You guys are so mature,
but I just can't forgive McCain. He forfeited my respect last year when he had the chance to do the right thing. He didn't have to sell out his conservative principles. All he had to do was stand up against a wrong, and he failed to do it. I don't care what his ambitions are - the image of that * hug is burned on my brain forever.

McCain could have saved us from 4 more years of this national shame.



I'll never forgive him. If Kerry can still be his friend, more power to him, but I wouldn't vote for McCain for dogcatcher.

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Noisy Democrat Donating Member (799 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I'm with you
McCain is a complete opportunist and I have no respect for him.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm not mature on this either
I could forgive him campaigning constantly for Bush, he is a Republican and has Presidential ambitions. I could ignore the sickening hug - it's politics. What I can't forgive is that he violated HIS own value system when he spoke to the RNC without asking people to remove their purple heart band aids.

As a soldier, he knew what the award was and how it was granted. He also knew how Kerry earned his two medals, which really said more about the type of sailor and man Kerry was. Did he stop for one minute to think how sickened Kerry's daughters or his crew likely were. Dole was even worse claiming Kerry never bled.

From reading books and here, Kerry entered the Navy a very athletic, healthy man. From his time in the Navy, in addition to those 3 injuries, it seems he also has a hearing loss and apparently still gets nightmares. If all of us know this, McCain and Dole, obviously did too. Choosing to allow attacks on his purple hearts to benefit a chickenhawk who himself avoided the harm war brings who then was using his TANG service to seem like he was a warrior, is sickening.

In trying to put it in perspective, I found it harder to accept. When there was a McCain and Kerry aren't speaking thread, I tried to turn it around. Assume McCain had won the nomination in either 2000 or 2004, if mean spirited Democrats had chosen to wear something or have signs that questioned McCain's captivity (or even suggested that he had used it for political gain for 30 years), I would respect Kerry far less if he spoke to the crowd cheering them on without (even very politely) suggesting that that wasn't fair game.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. MIA's: what do you think about recent discovery of more remains?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apwashington_story.asp?category=1152&slug=Vietnam%20Remains

I am concerned because I thought that some of the POW/MIA activists were very anti-Kerry because they didn't like that he and McCain got that report done and worked to normalize relations with Vietnam.

Does the fact that there are now more remains being returned make Kerry/McCain look bad?

IMO normalizing relations was the right thing to do. However I am sympathetic to people who feel like they "closed the books" prematurely and made it harder for folks who still have loved ones missing. I'm trying to understand the intense hatred these folks seem to feel - is there a basis in fact for their anger against Kerry/McCain or are they misinformed?

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. No, much the opposite
Edited on Fri Aug-12-05 12:44 AM by karynnj
The return of remains started in 1993 and was the result of very delicate negotiations mostly by Kerry. The Vietnamese themselves had millions of people killed - many of whom were never identified or laid to rest by their families. Asking them to make an effort to identify any places where Americans might have been buried, was one of the demands that was made by the commission. Sometime in late 2003, Howard Dean's brother's body was returned to his family through this process.

Tour of Duty briefly described Kerry's work on this and even suggested it could merit a book on its own. It sounded like the committee was needed after Newsweek published a cover story about Americans still being held. The story and the cover picture were determined to be fraudulent. Kerry was asked to head it. McCain refused to be ranking member initially so Bob Smith, and ultra conservative Republican was the ranking member. All the VN vets in the Senate were on it.

Having an objective of proving something doesn't exist is in theory impossible. Kerry was able to get the VN to agree to even take them into tunnels under Ho Chi Ming's monument and to get an agreement that they could move at will by helicopter without identifying their destinations. They had gone through all the reports that said people were being held and checked out places that met those descriptions.

In addition to investigations in Vietnam, they went through mountains of Nixon era papers and questioned Kissinger and other officials of that time period to resolve discrepancies in reports that fed some of the rumors. Nixon himself was given written questions and as his answers matched his former subordinates', Kerry didn't chose to ask him to testify.

As to the anger of some of the families, part of it came because there were some really creepy people who contacted people with MIA family members, fed them lies about people still being held and asked for money so they could complete getting proof. McCain was actually more of a target than Kerry at the time of the committee. I think part of the reason the families trusted Kerry at the beginning was because he, of all people, would not cover up for Nixon leaving soldiers behind. With some it may have been the committee's existance got their hopes up and these hopes were dashed.

THe SBVT however used a 1993 picture showing Kerry and the VN leaders which was in a VN history museum to "prove" he met with the Vietnamese. Nice reward for years of diligent work.

As to prematurely reconciling, this was about 20 years after the war ended. I can't think of a longer time period, but VN was the first war we lost. The remains are from the VN era. It is now another 12 years later and no MIA/POW who was held have shown up.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thanks for the info.
I think I wasn't clear in my post that I consider myself rather uninformed on the issue. It's only that I've run across some virulently anti-Kerry stuff that seems to be based on the notion that normalizing relations got Vietnam off the hook.

I guess the fact that more remains were just returned shows that recovery operations continue and the books were not closed.

To be fair, when someone's that emotionally involved as the affected relatives here, it may not be possible to change their opinions. I guess the best we can do is present the facts and rational arguments that reach the people who can think more objectively about it.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-12-05 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. In addition to the fact that some people emotionally couldn't give up hope
there were evil people who have lived off exploiting these poor relatives. Some of them were the people who attacked McCain - both when they had the committtee hearings and later when they were used by Rove. From McCain's description of the POW/MIA committtee, it was him they hated when the committee started because he had already denounced them. The committee spent considerable effort checking out all their claims and rejected them. Not surprisingly they attacked Kerry last year.

The Kerry blog covered a lot of Kerry's endorsements. One of the weirdest was from the ultra conservative NH ex-Senator, Bob Smith, was the ranking member of the POW/MIA committee. It essentially said that they almost always cancelled each others votes, but that Kerry was a good person (and implied Bush wasn't), who constrainded by a Republican Congress wouldn't do much harm. Bush had supported his primary opponent, Sununu (sp?), so I don't know if it was anger over that caused him to do this. It was in the form of a letter to Kerry, but it was sent to and published by a NH paper. I never read any comments on whether he had a following in NH or what the reaction was, though I really can't picture a bunch of really RW people reading it and saying they were for Kerry.
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