Stupid thread on General Discussion

[pinkflower21]

slamming Kerry for not doing enough for the Hurricane Katrina victims. Just because it's not publicized doesn't mean he's not doing anything, just because we haven't heard about it. So lame.

[fedupinBushcountry]

1. It is totally disgusting

and I responded to it in that fashion. There is so much going wrong in this country right now, and this idiot post this stupid remark. I tell ya, I swear some of the posters on DU make me sick, they act like little children that never got a bit of attention in their life. They have no clue what is really happening, and they sure as hell don't read.

I'm so sick of this shit. :puke:

[emulatorloo]

2. Your post was wonderful -- thank you so much for it. EOM

[politicasista]

3. Thankfully, it is locked.

[CBHagman]

4. It's standard circular firing squad procedure.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the Democratic Party runs a real liberal for president in 2004, and what do we have going on at DU and elsewhere? Kvetching and whining about how (fill in the cause of choice) isn't getting enough attention, blah, blah, blah.

We get posts about how the Democratic Party needs to be "purged." Yeah, decreasing the number of allies is ALWAYS a good idea if you want to win elections and/or pass legislation. :eyes:

We get posts about how some DUer oh-so-cleverly harassed the volunteer or telemarketer who called for a donation. Yeah, it takes a BIG person to be rude to a total stranger over the phone.

I brought myself over here for a timeout to avoid giving in to the temptation of messaging or posting responses to the ones who so fancy their own political purity that they wouldn't hestitate to sell any of us down the river if we ran afoul of their One Person Purity Party.

Whew. Got to calm down.

[TayTay]

5. Remember this: These lefty freepers are powerless

I think the reason they don't bother me that much is because they are basically clueless people. They think about politics, but not in a political way. They think it's a simple matter of Dems muscling aside the democratically elected (well, maybe) representatives of other people and simply exerting their will. There is a word for that, it's called dictatorship. Like it or not, democracy involves dealing constantly with people who don't agree with you. Coming to a consensus and moving forward together is the only way things get done. The lefty freepers simply cannot see that because it is not morally pure. And so they never get anything they want because they are abrasive, self-righteous and self-centered. Their own brainless passion works against them.

The lefty freepers have a sad lack of 'people skills.' (Hell yeah, that's obvious, but we should still say it once in a while.) Politics has been described as the 'Art of the Possible.' Nothing is possible with people who argue as these folks do. They are politically powerless and can't figure out why. They should try looking in a mirror sometime. I don't know any professional pols who would enjoy working with these people. They would turn off the voters. (And demonstratively did when they went to work for Dean.) So, I also feel sorry for some of these LFers. They are destined to constantly push that big rock half way up the hill, only to see it stumble all the way back down.

[whometense]

6. I spent over 4 hours in the car

yesterday, and one of the things I was musing about while there was the lefty freepers - what makes them tick, what are they looking for, what would make them happy, etc, etc.

I'm sure none of the answers I came up with break any new ground, but it helps me more easily ignore them if I can get a fix on what's going on with them.

Most important to me is their attitude towards JK. Obviously, I'm a real diehard. But why am I a diehard (aside from the obvious attributes, Vek)?

1. I've known him FOREVER, and so I really have a sense of who he is as a person, and what his values are. (it certainly doesn't hurt that there are regional affinities, either) This is why a few days' delay on his public statement on Katrina don't bother me. I know he's working on it, and it will be worth the wait when he comes out with it.

2. I like that he doesn't talk down to people. I hate being condescended to, and it's one of the primary reasons I loathe *. Aside from the fact that he's a petty, arrogant bully, that is.

3. Before last year, I hadn't had a chance to vote for a president I completely admired and respected since McGovern.

4. I love that (freepers left and right to the contrary) he has in fact a spine of steel. He's also a bulldog. He shares these traits with *, actually, only in Kerry they are tempered with curiosity, intelligence, honesty, and a ferocious moral core.

5. As we well know, Kerry rarely loses his temper in public. When he is close to losing it you will hear him spit out extraordinarily terse, compact sentences. Like bullets.

6. While I love a good rabble-rouser as much as the next guy, I don't want that person as president. I want a president who is capable of graciousness, diplomacy, and dignity. Dignity is very important to me - I don't really know why. Lack of it sunk Dean in my eyes as a presidential candidate.

Now for the lefty freepers. This is what I observe.

1. They don't have even an elementary understanding of Kerry as a person, or of his history. In fact, their avoidance of same reminds me of *'s incuriousness. If you're a democrat, why did you not make a vestigial effort to find out something about your own candidate???

2. They are remarkably susceptible to right wing talking points. Why is that? Because they want to believe them?

3. They have no regard whatsoever for discipline, restraint, or diplomacy. They want their spokesperson to be a raging id, all emotion. The more dignified and thoughtful Kerry is, the more they dislike him.

4. Democratic Underground seems to be hosting a war between "liberals" and "progressives." I am a liberal. Kerry is a liberal. What is the dividing line between liberals and progressives? I tend to think liberals are more practical-minded and less averse to compromise. But that is just a thought. Self-identified progressives seem to really loathe Kerry, even though he's probably the closest to their ideal that has come along since, well, since McGovern.

5. They are obsessed with Kerry to a surprising degree. If he is as irrelevant and yesterday's news as they say, why waste an instant even commenting on what he says and does? Why jump all over every statement he makes? Why the carping and whining about someone they think "should just resign"?

Sorry to go on so long, but as you can see my car ride produced more questions than answers. (There was a lovely concert and visit with my son in the middle of the four hours of driving.) I agree with the people on this board who say trying to convince the freepers is a waste of energy. They are mostly weirdly honor-bound to not listen to reason. I do think there are very few of them, but I also think they set a negative tone that is damaging in the exact same way Rove's tactics are - they sow seeds of doubt that people who are less stalwart than we are fall prey to. Reasonable doubt. It can cost elections.

[ginnyinWI]

7. good post--and I agree with you on all points

I do trust Kerry and agree that he has an ideal temperament to be a good, diplomatic president. I was made wary of Dean because he did seem a bit volatile during the primary season--and also condescending--and I didn't want someone with big ego needs.

As for the lefty freepers--if it acts like a duck and sounds like a duck--well, as Randi Rhodes said, if you tear down Democrats, that makes you a Republican. I'm absolutely sure that we have resident Republicans who come here regularly on a mission to disrupt, sow seeds of doubt about Democrats, etc. They can't promote the * administration outright, but they can make it seem like all politicians are alike--dishonest and corrupt. So they do. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find that some are on a payroll to do just that.

We can either ignore them and not kick their threads, or respond with overwhelming proof(links) that they are wrong, wrong, wrong (especially about Kerry, our special area of expertise). Depends on what it is and who it is I guess. And we can remember to use the Alert button!

[whometense]

8. Thanks, Ginny.

As a political neophyte I probably spend way too much time puzzling these things out, while people with more experience can just understand right away what's going on. It's hard work. :D

I love your middle thought. It's stating the obvious that if the lefty freepers are republican operatives, reasoning with them will only give them more air time in which to make their point, which I think you NAILED:

They can't promote the * administration outright, but they can make it seem like all politicians are alike--dishonest and corrupt.

That makes sense to me on a gut level.

[karynnj]

10. I guess it would be in character for them to actually pay

people to do this - they are Nixonian and even those of us who suspected that we were paranoid then - found we under-estimated what they were doing. Some are probably just RW people who are doing what some here do there. (I have enough trouble reading things here)

[karynnj]

9. I agree with you on everything you've written

on why you support Kerry and you make more sense of the LW freepers than I thought possible. I think another part of their problem is they want someone who will do what Bush or Rush Limbaugh do with his base - credit their base as having all the right answers and being morally superior to everyone else. Kerry's independence - even from his supporters - and his willingness to work with people they have declared evil if it helps move good things forward is foreign to them.

I think that a fair portion of the young LW freepers will grow up to be RW freepers once they make money. They already have the same pompous belief that they can't be wrong on anything. Kerry's appeal is to reason - and they will never bite.

[whometense]

11. Those are great points.

I love what you said about the LW freepers turning into RW freepers once they get some money. As a child of the sixties it still shocks me that this happened to so many self-designated "hippies"- one of the reason why the term "hippie" is so misused and misunderstood. So many adopted the hippie style, but never understood the substance.

Kerry's independence too. I go back and forth between thinking they just can't understand a politician who doesn't sell out, or they don't trust him. I can't see how anyone who voted enthusuastically for JK for president could vote enthusiastically for Hillary for the same office. To me it's like they are two different species (and I'm not referring to gender.)

[whometense]

12. One more thought.

Does it drive anyone else as crazy as it does me that the lefty freepers immediately jump to the "spineless" offense?

I am beyond sick of the fighting keyboarders accusing Kerry - and any other dem leader who's out there fighting all the time - of cowardice. Who do they think they are? And what do they know??? Nothing. They know nothing.

[ginnyinWI]

13. they only say that because they are spineless themselves--

don't you think? Hiding behind a computer screen's anonymity and throwing out insults like monkeys throwing poop! I would absolutely love one of them to be asked to repeat some of those insults to JK's face! He'd be nice to them, regardless, but what a funny scene! We'd soon see who was spineless!!

Well, I say we don't need them (assuming they really are Dem voters), and we don't need the far right wing either. We do need the reasonable Democrats, Independents, and it wouldn't be bad to have the chance to welcome a fair amount of moderate Republicans into the fold--now that the "chimperor" has truly been shown to have no clothes! I say come on in, and welcome to sanity and truth!

So-- is this the one that does it? Over and over people have said, when a scandal erupts, that this one is the one that will put the Republicans over the cliff. Well, I have a hard time believing that this one won't put them over the cliff. The reason is that the conservatives are complaining now, too--and people like Tim Russert are raising their voices! I had to remind myself that I wasn't listening to AAR, but was actually watching Meet The Press.

[karynnj]

15. I hate that too

It never seems to occur to them that the person may disagree with them. It's not that they won't stand up for what they believe but that they believe something different than the freeper.

With Kerry, it is crazy, he has shown more bravery and dedication to HIS priciples than any politician living.

[karynnj]

14. I think you might be somewhat right on the Kerry and Hillary voters

I actually think it would have been possible to vote enthusiastically for Hillary and then vote enthusiastic ly for Kerry, but for people who looked into the candidates some may have difficulty with the reverse.

Every election since I've been married, my husband and I have read the canned book put out by the Democratic candidate - and found we could agree with it and supported the candidate. This year, the first book I read was Tour of Duty - I was amazed that Kerry let Brinkley print whatever he wanted form his journals. The journals were absolutely amazing, but they were written by a 25 year old boy.

Instead of first seeing a candidate as a full grown established politician giving broad, positive outlines of his plans, the first two images I (and likely many others - except you Massachusetts people who knew him for years) had of Kerry were two images of him as a young adult: the famous anti-war speech and as a brave sailor, not too proud to write of his fears both of being killed and of being unable to fit back in the life he left. Both images are of a startlingly honest, thoughtful man.

It was also clear that even then, he was guided by an internal sense of right and wrong. He did not define honor as following orders or rules - as McCain does, but as something that transcended the military and the government going to the heart of what is right. Nor did he follow the crowd in the anti-war movement. Because he always seems to try to figure out the right thing to do and then do it, the only question I had was what were his values. His values seemed to me to be the essence of what we were all told America was. Coming to these conclusions, I happily voted for Kerry.

I had happily voted for Bill Clinton, only to feel more disillusioned over time, even though I found it hard to be honest about it. I do think that Hillary may be more principled than her husband, but I don't see the same honesty that shines in Kerry's eyes. Also, although it seems strange to say this about two people I have never met, I think that Kerry does care when he says he does. I'm not sure Hillary always does. If Hillary gets the nomination, I will vote for her but not enthusiastically - I couldn't even finish her autobiography.

[whometense]

16. Great post.

I love the way you described Kerry here, and agree with everything you said. I don't know of any other politician who does the same level of self-examination and who is guided by the same moral compass Kerry has. Obama maybe - he appears to have a strong moral core and appears to be honest - I just don't know him that well. Feingold strikes me as an honest man, but I don't know him that well, either.

I don't get that same feeling about Hillary. I see her as calculating.

But I don't know of anyone out there who has what Kerry has - plus his experience, intelligence, and sense of humor. (I really respond to Kerry's humor - the dry and sarcastic side and the goofy side too.)

Signatures are turned off, but this is what I have right now in mine:

"I'm very well aware that when God made me one of the debits he gave me was sort of an over level of intensity.... On the other hand, what I do know about myself is that when you have a fight, I'm a good person to be in the fox hole with, and I know that we're in a fight right now." John Kerry

[TayTay]

17. I love that quote.

It was very moving when he said this back in '96. Kerry was being compared to that goofball Weld and Weld's penchant for doing goofy things just to get good press coverage. (Weld jumped into the Charles River fully clothed in order to generate publicity that the cleanup was going well and to show that he was not a stiff.)

When Kerry made that introspective and then defiant statement at the debate, you could have heard a pin drop. It was a great moment. He pulled something out of himself that looked somewhat painful, acknowledged a short-coming (at least one the press harped on) and then turned it on it's head.

I think I'll change my sig to:
You didn't want to have a beer with John. Okay, how about a toxic bath with George.

[whometense]

18. I dare you. ;-)

I like that. It has a nice sting to it. }(

[karynnj]

19. I like the quote too - because it seems accurate

I like your proposed signature. Maybe when he runs again, he can have a town meeting type thing in a bar or two in an early state and call it "Have a beer with John" if they have only one beer each - it could be good.