Iraq, again.

[TayTay]

I am still trying to figure out what I want to have happen in Iraq. On the one hand, I want the troops to come home because I honestly feel that the war is not winnable. On the other hand, I fear that pulling out the US troops too quickly will result in the deaths of even more Iraqi civilians. So, I am in a quandry.

I think Billmon and Juan Cole have come to a conclusion that I can support. Billon at The Whiskey Bar had a nice post today. He was also trying to decide which course is best when he had an epiphany. He went to a website that showed very graphic pictures of the dead in Iraq and shuddered He shuddered even more when he realized that these pics were posted for the amusement of certain sickos who like pics of violent death. His conclusion is worth reading and is the closest I have read to what I feel.

I think Juan Cole, who previously opposed rapid withdrawal, also has come to the conclusion that the US has to withdraw. Juan Cole. I concur. Cole agrees that ground troops need to be withdrawn from Iraq and that the US should have air support left in, to help mitigate the worst of a civil war in IRaq. I like this position.

does anyone know when Sen. Kerry plans on making his speech about Iraq. I had thought it might not be this week because I thought the dicsussion might be on the after affects of Rita. But that does not seem to be the case now, so I wonder if he will make it this week. I also wonder what he will say and if he has changed his mind on Iraq. (BTW, I still believe that the US won't be in Iraq six-nine months from now. There is no way that the Repubs are going to run in 06 with the massive troop deployment we have now. I think they will bale and not in a responsible fashion and I particularly want to hear Sen. KEry's views on that. He knows these bastards that are in power now and he knows that above all else they 'Cover their Asses.')

Anyone else have any thoughts on this on this Anti-War weekend?

I venture to say no war can be long carried on against the will of the people.
Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

[ginnyinWI]

1. wow.

The Juan Cole article is very eye-opening. And I do respect this guy, having read him before. I think he's probably right. We are making everything worse by doing exactly the wrong thing time after time. I don't see how it would get worse by us leaving, since we are making it worse by staying. What a disaster--I am so ashamed of this "government". When will they wake up?

Kerry said earlier this year that we have a small window of time left to "get it right". Maybe that window is gone, and he will say it soon. I am very interested to know what he found out on his recent foray to the area.

[TayTay]

2. So am I. I want a thoughtful speech

and everyone else who wants soundbites can just watch something else. I respect Kerry's opinion and I bet he has gone through some real soul-searching on this. I really want to listen to this speech, I have a gut feeling that it is going to be really, really interesting. I also have a feeling that it will lay out, in more precise and clear terms what the pros and cons are and what he feels in both head and heart should happen.

I really want to hear a thoughtful voice right now. I actually hope it's two speeches, one for the sound bite people and one for people who want a decent and possibly lengthy discussion with facts cited and the voice of the people who actually have to fight in this war quoted. That's what I want. (Gee, I bet that's not the case with everyone. So many people just want a 'yes or no; discussion and I really want the issue to be thrashed out.)

[karynnj]

6. He kind of did that last year when he did the NYU speech

and did Letterman (I think the same day). The NYU speech was incredible, laying out exactly what he would do if he were President right that minute. (I loved the honesty of him saying that he couldn't say what he would do in January if elected, because he couldn't forecast the situation). On Letterman, he explained his policy in about a minute, counting off the four points on his fingers.

[Island Blue]

3. I agree with you Tay Tay, I'm also torn

While I certainly want our troops out of Iraq (never wanted them there to begin with), I fear what an immediate withdrawal would mean for the Iraqi people. Of course we have no way of knowing that. It could be very, very bad, or the "insurgents" (yeah, right - whatever) could have no reason left to fight and the new government might be able to pull through and find its own way in governing the Iraqi people. (Again, weather that would be a good thing or a bad thing we have no way of knowing.)

I would love to see Kerry make a speech about Iraq and about what he learned by traveling there. I guess right now with the focus on the devastation wrought be two hurricanes, maybe he feels like the timing isn't right to talk about it. :shrug: (Although if that's the reason he hasn't spoken out yet, I hope the events of this weekend in DC will change his mind.)

No matter what, I think we all can agree that the war in Iraq has been a cluster fuck of epic proportions. I don't believe that Bush Co. ever had a plan to win the war. They only planned to perpetuate it for political purposes. Now that its usefulness is waining, I think they have no clue what to do next.

[ginnyinWI]

4. whatever he says, I'll know it's the truth

I trust him to trust us with the truth, unlike so many politicians.

I'm more and more suspicious that this "we can't leave because it will make things worse" meme is the same thing as the warnings they gave for not pulling out of Vietnam. It was going to be a disaster for the people, they'd all be exterminated, etc, etc,--and it didn't happen. I'm feeling more and more like the wool is being pulled over our eyes. A news blackout now??? It figures.

Clinton is saying the same thing--we can't leave now, it will make things worse. But I'll only believe it if John Kerry says it.

[Island Blue]

5. I agree with you

I trust John Kerry and will put my faith in him and what he has to say. He wasn't afraid in 1971 to tell the truth about what he had witnessed first hand in Viet Nam, and I don't believe he will be afraid to tell the truth now.

[paulk]

7. thanks for posting this

I haven't been reading Juan Cole much lately... too busy.

I think highly of his opinion, so I'm going to have to think about this... it's becoming clear that we'll pull our troops out sooner rather than later, I guess the one thing that no one can agree on is a timeline. Except for the Bush junta - they don't seem to have a plan at all...

I'm really waiting on what Kerry will say, post his most recent trip to Iraq.

[TayTay]

8. You know, I actually wish I felt definite about Iraq

Or something about Iraq. I know that it is going badly. I know that we were lied into going there. But the truth is that we are there and have to deal with the reality of that. (Something the left only sometimes wants to do.) There is so much grey area and it makes me feel so lost. I don't know what the right thing to do is.

I marched last month on the day that everyone else did in support of Cindy Sheehan's request that * speak with her. Her question is basic and fundamental and is a question of the future and not the past. "What noble cause did my son die for?" I want to know that as well.

But I am, again, lost in figuring out what to do going forward. I want whatever leaves the area stable and incurs the least amount of death and suffering. What that is is beyond my poor ability to tell. SO, I am guilty of waffling. I sometimes wish I really felt as sure about what I want as some lefties. But I honestly don't. I just seem to see Iraq as a giant quamire and that there is no good way out. Sigh!

[paulk]

9. one of the main reasons I was opposed to the invasion

was that it was obvious that the situation we're in now would come about.

I've felt so far that staying there might be nominally better than leaving - in terms of the damage done, or the possibility that Iraq could stabilize somewhat... but, with BushCo in charge there's clearly going to come a point of no return, where the cost of staying is greater than the cost of leaving (and I mean "cost" in it's broadest sense).

I , too, wish I could have the unquestioning certainty about this as many on the left do... but the threat of a failed state in Iraq - a state sitting on top of the world's second largest oil reserves, and the economic power to spread terrorism implied by that... makes me pause...

Not to mention the inevitable civil strife that is sure to engulf Iraq. It's not unlikely that millions could die.

If Kerry were president, I'd feel a lot more confident that at least the lesser of a bad outcome would be achievable... but, there is no hope with our current admin. that anything but disaster will result. So maybe it's better to leave... Even then, how do you do it? How long will it take? Six months, a year? Two years? And how do you do anything with Bush in charge?



I know enough about this to know that I don't have the answer.


ed for grammar

[babylonsister]

10. I'm not torn; I want the US out of there yesterday.

I've heard (most recently from the replay of Galloway v.Hitchens on CSPAN last night, from Galloway) that the vast majority of Iraqis think we're causing more strife there than anything else, and want us out. And who the hell did this admin think they were by going into a fractured Muslim country and try to insert democracy, under false pretenses no less? The Iraqis have been fighting their religious wars for thousands of years; what made this admin think the population would fold without a fight? Oh, that's right, no one considered this would proceed beyond their shock and awe campaign. The lack of foresight (as forecast in the DSM) provides grounds for impeaching the whole lot of them, IMHO.
Also, look at all the 'new' insurgents that are being created. I can imagine we've encouraged a bunch; when family members see their moms, dads, brothers, sisters, babies, etc., blown to bits, who is ultimately at fault and who will be blamed? I would think the blame would be put squarely on the US, since we started this mess.
I honestly don't see an end to this and believe it will only get worse. We need to get out now and stop the bloodshed on both sides.
And I wish Senator Kerry would come out swinging; if there's one good reason to think/hope the situation will improve, I'd like to hear it.
Just my 2 cents...

[ginnyinWI]

11. Here's more info on this subject

The gist of it is that while only 82 of 275 members of the Iraqi National Assembly want the U.S. out, the people do. Hundreds of thousands came out last March to demonstrate for a withdrawal.

From The Nation: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051003/enders

[Mass]

12. News for an Iraq speech from the AP report on today speech

Let's hope this speech come soon.

http://www.tuscaloosanews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050926/APN/509260911&cachetime=3&template=dateline

He said Monday he is preparing another speech laying out a timetable for Iraqis to regain control of their country

[TayTay]

13. Alabama, it makes the news in Alabama?

Oh, and in Providence, Rhode Island. But not in Boston. What the hell is going on around here? (Honestly, What did Sen. Kerry do to get the cold shoulder around here? I don't get it.)

On the other hand, The Boston Herald is now reduced to getting it's news by raiding dumpsters on Beacon Hill and trying to figure out who is drinking what on Louisburg Square, so maybe it's a better world where Kerry news comes from Alabama. I guess the Herald reporter had to take a shower and couldn't attend. Sigh! How low can they go?

[whometense]

14. AP story

Notice it's written by Glen Johnson?

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh021303.shtml

[TayTay]

15. Really. He recounted that story about hounding Kerry about

being sick and not telling the Globe first at that Harvard Forum last fall, after the election. Ken Mehlman, the Rethug Ghoul in Charge, called him a stalker and said he would have called the cops on him. How bad was that.

(Gawd Globie feelings get hurt so easily. I forgot how proprietary they are about Sen. Kerry. They really do think they own the poor man. Next they'll be asking him to wear an electronic ankle bracelet so they can thoroughly track and then ignore his every move.)

[whometense]

16. It may just be

unrequited love. :sarcasm: You know, you always hurt the one you love?

[TayTay]

17. Ooohhhhh, like that one.

unrequited love. By the Globe? For Kerry. It just whacky enough to have merit. They want him all to themselves, or not at all. :sarcasm: