So I'm not such a fan of Greg Palast

[WildEyedLiberal]

Don't get me wrong. I love that he's trying to bring election fraud to light. That's an admirable and worthy thing. What I do take issue with is his tendency to make snide remarks about John Kerry while doing so.

At Barnes and Noble the other day, I saw this book with shrub's face on the cover, called "What Do We Do Now?" or something to that effect. It was published by an independent publisher, and basically was full of articles. So needless to say I picked it up for a browse.

I get to Palast's article "Kerry really won Ohio" or something like that - it's a big exposition of all the myriad irregularities in Ohio. Again, good to get that stuff out there. But he can't resist taking a jibe at Kerry. He says something to the effect of, "Kerry would've had to demand a hand recount of every individual ballot in Ohio, and would've been trounced by accusations of being a sore loser. He decided to preserve his political career and opt not to protest, which is a decision I understand but cannot admire." He then goes on to say that Kerry may be the first candidate to break a campaign promise after losing an election, by supposedly reneging on his promise to "count every vote." (Which I don't understand, at all.)

It seems as though Palast wanted Kerry to do a Gore and pursue legal action in regards to the Ohio fiasco, which is a frequent theme I've heard among the doomsayers at DU. But wait; Palast's opinion of Gore isn't much better. In his anti-Bush joke card deck "The Joker's Wild," Palast highlights various villains and enemies of democracy - mostly Bush lapdogs and corporate robber barons. However, he includes Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and the DNC among these "villains." About Gore and the DNC, he says, "Why can't Democrats stand up? They're invertebrates." So evidently, Gore's reaction to election fraud was "spineless" as well, according to Palast, though he subsequently posited that he wished Kerry had done the exact same thing. :wtf: Also, a bit egotistically, he includes himself in the deck as the two of hearts - the hearts, of course, being the single suit in the deck full of heroes, as opposed to evildoers. Surely there was one other decent human being in the world Palast could have chosen instead of himself, because declaring yourself a hero of democracy seems to be a bit, well, narcissistic.

Again, I admire the attempt to bring election fraud into the light. But it seems to me that Democrats should think twice about hailing him as a hero, since it fully appears that he has no love lost for our candidates, and does not intend to support the party in its fight against Bush.


edit: for typos and election fraud (there ya go Faye ;))

[New Earth]

1. before i even finish reading your post

it's not 'voter fraud', it's election fraud. :)

well, you got it right everywhere but the first line....

[vinessa4freedom]

2. If there's anything that Kerry doesn't do

it's doing anything solely for the purpose of preserving his political career. Geez, how many times does he have to go against the grain for people to realize what he's made of?

[WildEyedLiberal]

3. That's the problem I have with people like Palast

People who want to automatically assume that anyone holding public office is inclined to be corrupt, dishonest, and opportunistic. If he were an honest journalist, he would look at Kerry's record and see for himself that the man has devoted his life to pursuing a progressive agenda and to weeding out governmental pork and corruption. Hell, Kerry should be the ace of hearts in Palast's hero suit.

[New Earth]

5. ha, thank you for changing it

it's a pet peeve of mine :(

[LittleClarkie]

16. I've known people like him in business

He doesn't play the shmooze game. If you don't play the "good ol' boy" network games, it doesn't matter how right you are, people will look for ways to make you the scapegoat.

I knew a woman like that at work. "Friends" of the boss could get away with murder, but let this woman ask for an extra five minutes to get her kid to daycare and whammo, out of a job. All because she told it like it was and didn't blow smoke up anyone's butt.

I wonder if Kerry gets a rap like that.

[WildEyedLiberal]

17. I think that's why the media hates him

He doesn't play their little games. That's why they work so hard to make every little bit of shit stick to him. They can't stand that he doesn't schmooze.

[Goldeneye]

4. I don't know if you guys will appreciate this post as much as I did,

but read the last few points...there's one about Kerry that you might find interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=296&topic_id=372#

disclaimer...I don't know who this author is, but it was posted at dkos...

[vinessa4freedom]

6. that was intriguing...

It does make you wonder who it is, but I like the way they worded that response.

[Withywindle]

7. Oooh, that is intriguing!!!

Thanks for the link!


I so want to believe it's true about the Repubs imploding--they've overreached so many times, seemingly with so little effect! But that's a good point about Newt Gingrich especially, I mean...

Newt?

:wtf:

Whoever that poster is, s/he sure is dead on about misinformation!

[JohnKleeb]

8. I hope Pelosi isnt supporting Roemer

Roemer is the last guy I want to get that job.

[whometense]

9. Thanks for the pointer,

and WOW.

I do read RawStory, and I've seen her name there, so I'd say she has at least some credibility.

This stuff makes my brain hurt. I've been suffering from severe cognitive dissonance since 2000, even worse after the election just past (or not quite past...)

It just creeps me out the way the repukes have perverted the truth. Though I HATE the way people around DU (obviously, not in this forum) talk about Kerry, I have some sympathy too. They don't know him like we do, and the thing * is best at is promoting paranoia and cynicism.

People just don't know who they can trust. It's frightening.

My favorite part:

3). Give Kerry a break. You don't know what happened (trust me). Just let his life speak for him and you will see that he has always been the one fighting these people. I admit I lost my mind for a bit and was also angry with him. My anger was aimed at the wrong direction. Little birds sing and there are things you cannot possibly know with regard to what happened. Stop playing into this smear campaign.

That deserves its own thread, don't you think?

[TayTay]

31. Did you see this part of the DKos thread

much further down, from Larissa, the RawStory writer:

Now, as for the Kerry statement... that I cannot source and my reasons are clear. I also provide the caveat that I cannot confirm... but my feelings (gut, therefore not fact, and hence I will not spread) is that what I have heard is true. Your attacks on John Kerry leave out some basic questions unanswered and your vicious attacks on him are remarkable, given that you don't know why or what made him concede other than your own "fair and balanced" conclusion.

Ask yourself this very reasonable question: Nixon/Bush/ and co., have been the arch nemesis of this man for the last 30 years... basic character traits never change... some are heightened and others reduced, but they do not change... he may have not been clear in articulating his position on the war... because he was not sure how much of what he was hearing was true... did you actually see his debate on the Senate floor about the bill he first opposed but then passed? He talked for almost an hour on why he did not trust that this money would go to the soldiers and how this money was not being accounted for, but he hoped that the money did reach them... did you see that by chance? Have you researched his voting record, including his oral presentations, at all? Judging a vote by its cover does not all the truth make... he is a very passionate and reasonable person. So either sometime between the hours of 12 AM and 2 PM the next day he was cloned and became spineless or something happened to make him walk away... and if you have studied him, then you would know that this is not a man who walks away... yet you, without facts of any sort (something you accuse me of) are willing to fry him and smear him. I am basing my statements on "off the record" things I have heard, which is enough for me to consider and I have. You base everything you say on what exactly?

I am not willing to, however, disclose something that I cannot confirm with "evidence" because even evidence these days seems to have no impact unless it can be pointed to directly ... do I exaggerate? Read the Conyers report and tell me how Ken Blackwell can be in office still, now, without anyone investigating him? How is that possible? Because no longer is just evidence required... it has to be DNA-bullet-proof... like the actual letter we broke, which he could not deny once we verified it. He has it in print... we can point to it and say "see...". I cannot point to the Kerry sources and say "see." In fact, I cannot even point to my own gut feeling... I have to rely on others to collect and verify. In the meantime, while they do that, you will have completely destroyed him. I simply wanted to stop your firing squad aimed at thin air and for reasons you have yet to mention.

Holy f*cking shit! Wow!

[whometense]

33. Whoa.

Thanks for posting this - she put this comment up after I had read the thread.

It's been quite a while since I read anything that electrified me in the way this did. Powerful. And true. I wonder if the lefty dimwits will be able to put aside their self-righteousness to give her a listen. Judging from some of the comments, I'm not sure they will.

I myself have NO sources, but my instincts tell me that stuff she said about Rovian dissent-seeding in dem forums is correct. They must just love dropping these bombs and then running away, laughing. It's so easy to incite a circular firing squad.

The question I've been pondering is, Why are dems so willing to believe the worst about Kerry?

Edited due to morning fingers.

[TayTay]

34. Patience, my dear

This too shall pass. We cannot do anything right now. It was the down time between the election and the coronation. Down time can help you heal or it can enhance the stewing in your own juices side. (Depends on the person.) This too shall pass.

Have some faith. Good stuff is coming. I swear. Read the signs. These rethugs bastards are going down.

I believe.

[whometense]

37. Thanks, I needed that :-)

My faith in Kerry never wavers, but my faith in many of my fellow dems has taken a beating lately.

Self-righteousness is an extremely unattractive trait on either end of the political spectrum.

[paulk]

10. one of the points made in that dkos thread

is about the problems going on inside the Republican coalition. There are going to be some huge cracks opening up - there has to be. Thet's what gets me so pissed off about the circular firing squad over in the GD forums - we should be making popcorn and getting ready for the show - too many direct their ire in the wrong direction.

:mad:

ps - I wonder what Kerry knows? I'd bet a lot more than we do...

[whometense]

11. Completely agree.

Not to mention what a sickening waste of energy it all is.

I'm betting Kerry knows plenty. I have total faith that he will do everything he can to take down *. And I so admire his courage.

People are always calling him ambitious like that's a bad thing. Ambition like * has - for naked power - is evil. Ambition like Kerry's - to save the world - that is a powerful force for good.

[paulk]

13. that's a great point about ambition -

That's one of the things that attracted me to Kerry - he doesn't have to be doing any of this. He exemplifies liberalism to me - using power to do good - to make the world a better place for everyone - not just yourself.

[ginnyinWI]

15. it does sound very interesting...

but now I'm curious--what did the little birdies say??

Thanks!:tinfoilhat:

[whometense]

35. Did you see

this thread over at DKos?

I've made a point of not going over there much lately, but this one's well worth the trip:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/13/204618/730

[LittleClarkie]

12. Well if he doesn't understand the narcissism of making himself a hero

He wouldn't understand how narcissistic it would have been for Kerry to stand up himself, rather than letting others make it about the vote and not him. I understand some say he was asked to do just that. But folks wanna take pot shots at him anyway. It's like he's an easy target.

My poor Velcro Johnny.

[WildEyedLiberal]

14. I know

Sometimes I really think all the left wing "advocates" end up doing more harm than good to our side. I wonder if they are capable at all of loyalty.

[Withywindle]

28. Didn't several of the Congresspeople themselves...

...say it was good that Kerry wasn't there and that this wasn't about him?

Didn't Boxer herself say she knew she was going to be the only Senator voting YEA and that was FINE - it wasn't the vote that mattered, it was getting the issue aired?


Didn't Kerry himself say he was going to be working on legislation and investigation about this?


:wtf:

[WildEyedLiberal]

29. For all those reasons

I resent Palast and other "liberals" aiming their anger at Kerry instead of Bush, where it belongs.

[LittleClarkie]

36. They wanted him to come in like Jesse Jackson

Not to put down Jesse, but that's what he does. Kerry wasn't going to suddenly turn into him, and it was unrealistic to think he was.

But if all it was going to do was get him impaled on the sword of public opinion, I didn't even want him to do it. "Oh, so he's just worried about his career."

You'd better hope he's worried about his career, people. Part of his job in that career is looking out for all of us. Why do people just piss away a 20 year career as if it should mean nothing. Would THEY leave a 20 year career for what was essentially going to be "just to make a point," because nothing, NOTHING was going to change in the election. The best we could have hoped for was exactly what we got. And even the people involved knew that.

I was just listening to morning radio. They're making fun of a Kerry statement on the Iraqi vote. I think they're quite willing to make anyone we put up as candidate look like a freakin' buffoon. The only one who has managed to fight that in the last decade and a half has been Clinton. And then they followed him around until they found something to hang him with.

Think about that. If Kerry had gotten in, what would these people have done to him. He had no scandals. Would they have looked for something in campaign finance? We need to get these people out at a local level, or no one we field on a national level will ever have a chance.

[ginnyinWI]

43. you're right, Clarkie

I wasn't really sure about whether JK should have been there or not--but since I do trust his judgement, I was ok with him not being there. But once I saw the actual debate on TV, I was so glad he wasn't there! I was then re-convinced that I can trust him to do the smart thing! The whole thing would have been a circus, a laughingstock for the late-nites, in short, a disaster.

[New Earth]

18. am i the only one in this forum that likes Greg Palast?

:shrug: i don't automatically dislike someone because they aren't fond of Kerry.

[JI7]

19. it's not just about Kerry

but the other things which she pointed out such as the things he says about Gore,Clinton etc and many of which contradict each other.

[New Earth]

21. yeah i can see what you mean.

but i still like reading his stuff usually. he has a good sense of humor too, live.

[WildEyedLiberal]

20. I think by dismissing Kerry Palast hurts our cause more than helps it

I like how he's trying to spotlight election reform, but it bothers me that he wants to dismiss all politicians in America as corrupt. And it's a bit sanctimonious and unfair of him to accuse Kerry of being opportunistic by not doing exactly what he wanted re: the Ohio situation. I don't see how marginizaling honest liberal candidates helps liberal causes, so yeah, it turns me off when liberal "advocates" decide that they are morally superior to elected officials. People aren't going to be receptive to his message of election fraud if he doesn't even give an appearance of believing in any candidate. And it's unfair of him to accuse Kerry of breaking a campaign promise. So no, I'm not a giant fan.

[TayTay]

32. No, you're not

hell, I even got "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" and handed it out as gifts to friends. Heck, I even own the AudioCD edition.

I love the guy. His job is to turn over rocks and tell us that there are icky things around that we need to pay attention to. He is a bit rough around the edges, but so what. At least he is doing his job, not kowtowing to corporate powers that be. Bravo GPalast! Long may you muckrack. We need some truth telling.

JK is a big boy and has been through worse than this kind of friendly fire. I am not worried about his reactions at all. Perceptions by others are another matter.

[WildEyedLiberal]

38. I don't think convincing people that Kerry is part of the problem

is helping anything.

Sorry, still don't like him.

[TayTay]

39. Oh, he said worse than that

I read his website after the Dem convention and he repeated the lie that Kerry shot an unarmed teenager in the back in Vietnam. Palast should know better. He is in the business of debunking lies. Repeating one was inexcusable.

Palast and Michael Moore and others are NOT Democrats. They are independent writers and documentarians. Had John Kerry been elected, they would have gone on muckracking. That's what they do. It gets rough at times, but we actually need truth tellers out there doing their job. I'll take Palast over NYTimes reporter Judith Miller any day.

Excerpted from 'The Exception to the Rulers' by Amy Goodman, Hyperion Press, 2004, page 146

About NYTIMES reporter Judith Miller and her 'embedded journalist' role in Iraq in March/April 2003.

But who was playing whom? The Washington Post reported that while Miller was embedded with MET Alpha, her role in the unit's operations became so central that it became known as the "Judith Miller team." In one instance, she disagreed with a decision to relocate the unit to another area and threatened to file a critical report in the Times about the action. When she took her protest to a two-star general, the decision was reversed. One Army officer told the Post, "Judith was always issuing threats of either going to The New York Times or to the secretary of defense. There was nothing veiled about that threat."
...
In April 2003, MET Alpha traveled to the compound of Iraqi National Congress leader Ahmed Chalabi "at Judy's direction," where they interrogated and took custody of an Iraqi man who was on the Pentagon's wanted list -- despite the fact that MET Alpha's only role was to search for WMDs. As one officer told the Post, "It's impossible to exaggerate the impact she had on the miision of this unit, and not for the better."

Maybe it's just me, but I'll take a pain in the ass muckracker over the warmongering war bitch anyday.

[WildEyedLiberal]

40. I'll take neither of them, thank you

Palast repeated the Swift Boat lies?

I didn't think my opinion of him could sink any further. Now he's barely more tolerable than the Dean cultists, and that's ONLY because of his election fraud work.

Bullshit. The "left" can do better than this. If this is who we rely on to spotlight our causes, then we'll never win. We'll never win as long as "our" guys participate in right wing smears of good men like John Kerry. Palast wants change, but is willing to shoot down an honorable man who WANTS to enact that change, just because he's an independent muckraker? Sorry. No pass. If he wants to raise hell during a Kerry presidency too, fine - let him. But helping to prevent a Kerry presidency from ever happening (by providing the ABBers with fodder for their Kerry hate, thus crippling our side by killing much needed positive momentum) and thereby preserving the Bush reign is irresponsible, dangerous, egotistical, and wrong.

Wow, I dislike him even more now. We do NOT need people like this on our side. With liberals like him, who needs Hannity?

[TayTay]

41. Not the SBVT lies

this was the old stab in the back from the business reporter for The Boston Globe back in the Weld/Kerry Senatorial race. David Warsh (or Walsh, I don't care to remember) first made this allegation in a column back in Oct. 1996. Really fired up the Kerry people and they got a whole bunch of Kerry's budies to come out and defend him from these false allegations. (Grrr, whoulda, coulda, shoulda in 2004. Sigh!)

Agree to disagree.

[WildEyedLiberal]

42. Same garbage, different source

Maybe not the SBVT offal per se, but still a vicious, unsubstantiated lie that any "muckraker" worth his salt ought to immediately disregard as a slanderous charcter smear. Repeating such slime diminishes his journalistic integrity and proves him to be a controversy hound.

I don't care how "funny" his books are. This is serious shit, and his only concern attempts to be cementing his own reputation as a thorn-in-Washington's-side. We can do without the egotistical self-promoting pseudo-journalists, methinks.

I don't know how you can hold any degree of respect for him if he is sleazy enough to repeat the old Vietnam lies.

[JohnKleeb]

44. Very cruddy thing him to do

As I told Wildeyed one night, I caught supporters of other candidates doing this too before the swift boat liars parroted it. I like the work Palast does but I don't like him bad mouthing good dems.

[sandnsea]

46. He's okay

He does very important work, very important. But he is a bit of a narcissist, and like Michael Moore, makes just enough leaps of faith to cause his work to come under more criticism than it ought to. I really wish these guys would stick to the facts, they're damning enough.

[Vektor]

22. Thanks, but no thanks, Greg.

Sounds like his attention to the election fraud is a left-handed compliment. "Kerry really won...but he did everything wrong otherwise."

Hey, Palast. I have an ass you can kiss.

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. That was sort of what I thought.

Don't people understand that it's not enough to be against Bush?

You have to be FOR something.

[Vektor]

24. I'm for...

...you and JK taking your relationship to the "next level."

[WildEyedLiberal]

25. Bwahaha!

I'm definitely FOR that as well :evilgrin:

[Vektor]

26. Beautiful!

Then the RPP has a party platform, and a mission statement. We're well on our way.

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. Yes

I think I should be the official party, uh, chairman... responsible for, uh, carrying out the mission...

[Vektor]

30. If you like that sort...

..of "dirty work," than yes....you should be the one.

"here is your mission, should you choose to accept it..."

[angrydemocrat]

45. To Put It Simply

I dont like Greg Palast he is a asshole who uses right wing talking points to bash honorable men like Kerry and he deserves no pass on nothing. And good for you WEL!