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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 09:22 AM
Original message
Excuse ME!
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 09:23 AM by ProSense

What the fuck is she talking about? By the first paragraph, you could see where she's headed. Some of these people need to get their heads out of their asses long enough to think about what they are saying, connect the fucking dots to reality. How the fuck do you compare Bush/Cheney/Powell to Kerry?

Opinion
WAR HAWKS SHOW CALLOUS DISREGARD FOR WORKING-CLASS TROOPS
By Cynthia Tucker
Fri Mar 24, 11:03 PM ET

"If I didn't believe we had a plan for victory, I wouldn't leave our people in harm's way. ... I understand people's lives are being lost." -- President Bush, March 21, 2006

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The average American understands that soldiers who fought in Vietnam were unfairly blamed for a war they did not start, for lies they did not tell, for mismanaged battle plans they could not salvage. So we're determined not to make that mistake again. This time around, most of us salute our soldiers.

Snip...

Their callousness about other people's children aside, it's not just Cheney and Bush whom I hold responsible for the deaths of more than 2,300 hundred Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis. It's also men like Sen. John Kerry and former Secretary of State Colin Powell, Vietnam veterans who had seen young men die in combat. They knew better than to take the nation to war on the wings of a lie.

That they did was not only unjust; it was immoral.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cynthia Tucker is editorial page editor for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. She can be reached by e-mail: cynthia@ajc.com.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucas/20060325/cm_ucas/warhawksshowcallousdisregardforworkingclasstroops

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. My response (long)
Perpetuating the mischaracterization that many critics of the Vietnam war opposed the troops is irresponsible. Lumping John Kerry into the same group as the Bush administration in a commentary titled “WAR HAWKS SHOW CALLOUS DISREGARD FOR WORKING-CLASS TROOPS” is illogical. In fact, Kerry was one of the most prominent critics of U.S. policy during the Vietnam war. Related to Iraq, if you look at Kerry's speeches from the early 1990s to two months before the current Iraq war, you will see that he never promoted the war that Bush started and was consistent in his opposition to war. If your implication is that the vote to authorize the use of force was a vote for war, that is a mischaracterization of a vote to hold Bush accountable. By now it should be clear to all that Bush has and will continue to act without regard for the rule of law.

Bush defied Congress with regard to spying. He trampled over the FISA law which allowed him to conduct warrantless search for a 72-hour period, but never on Americans, and he did that anyway.

According to the War Powers Resolution, Bush could have legally gone to war after consulting Congress, which is what the resolution was, even if it did not pass. The resolution was specific, Bush violated the specifics. The resolution was in line with the WPR, but it was not a declaration to go to war. It was an authorization to use force providing specific conditions were met. Under the WPR, a similar condition exists, but does not preclude the president from going to war without prior Congressional approval.

As in the 72-hour period required to file a warrant for surveillance, Bush only needed to report back to Congress after executing a war--- provide justification so to speak. He could have taken that route, the Republicans in congress and most of the country was behind him. He would have done it and it would have been a done deal. By the time Bush had to report back, that "Mission Accomplished" statement would have already been made.

So the IWR didn't make it easier, it specifically stated what criteria had to be met if he started a war. Without the resolution he would have defied Congress. With the resolution he not only defied Congress, he defied specific criteria laid out by Congress.

Although Bush manipulated the evidence, Congress learned of this long before the war. As a result, John Kerry issued a stern warning to Bush not to take action. From Kerry’s speech on national security -- Georgetown University Thursday, January 23, 2003:

I believe the Bush Administration's blustering unilateralism is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. In practice, it has meant alienating our long-time friends and allies, alarming potential foes and spreading anti-Americanism around the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.


Bush took the country to war anyway.

Linking Iraq to WMD, along with Bush's repeated linking of Iraq to 9/11, created the impression of an imminent threat to many in the public, which is why he enjoyed high public support.


The applicable section of the War Powers Act:

Sec. 4. (a) In the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced--

(b) The President shall provide such other information as the Congress may request in the fulfillment of its constitutional responsibilities with respect to committing the Nation to war and to the use of United States Armed Forces abroad
(c) Whenever United States Armed Forces are introduced into hostilities or into any situation described in subsection (a) of this section, the President shall, so long as such armed forces continue to be engaged in such hostilities or situation, report to the Congress periodically on the status of such hostilities or situation as well as on the scope and duration of such hostilities or situation, but in no event shall he report to the Congress less often than once every six months.

snip...

(c) Notwithstanding subsection (b), at any time that United States Armed Forces are engaged in hostilities outside the territory of the United States, its possessions and territories without a declaration of war or specific statutory authorization, such forces shall be removed by the President if the Congress so directs by concurrent resolution.

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/infousa/laws/majorlaw/warpower.htm


This article by John Dean lays out the problem:

The last great debate over presidential war powers

Truman's decision became the precedent for the unpopular Vietnam War (1961-1975). By 1973, the war-weary Congress challenged the President's war powers, concerned it had lost all power over the unending war in Vietnam, by introducing a sweeping War Powers Resolution

This resolution, designed to "insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President" are involved in decisions to use American military forces, acknowledges that a President can start a war without Congress -- so long as he advises Congress he is doing so. Then, if Congress does not either declare war or otherwise authorize the use of the military within 60 days from the start of the hostilities, the President must terminate such use of the military.

Over the veto of a Watergate-weakened Richard Nixon, the War Powers Resolution was adopted. But presidents have largely ignored it.

The War Powers Resolution, moreover, seemed to have pleased no one. Liberals, for example, criticized the resolution for permitting the president to unilaterally initiate hostilities for 60 days, before Congress can exercise its constitutional powers.


http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/08/columns/fl.dean.warpowers/


There is so much disinformation and misinformation being presented as fact by the media, pundits and columnists that the only thing easy to understand is why the public is confused.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Great letter
Her editorial linking a liar (Powell) to one lied to (Kerry) and treating them equally is crazy. Kerry was not a member of the Bush administration - and to equate him on this is untruthful. (Also, why is he alone, out of the entire Congress singled out - when his and Harkin's votes were likely the most reluctant. She has to know better - so I question the motive. My guess is that she sees that Kerry has the potential of being seen as the eventual candidate of the "anti-war" block. If Feingold is seen as too easy to marginalize - which the Patriot act votes could do, Kerry may take that spot.

She may be a Hillary supporter - who sees Kerry as the strongest of the opponents. She may be an Edwards supporter - some of whom absolve Edwards (though he undeniably was for the war), while holding Kerry responsible. Or she may simply be a DU type person dissapointed by Kerry not winning in 2004. As a high ranking member of the media, she should look to her profession's guilt in the run up to the war and their protection of Bush and poor treatment of Kerry in 2004 before blaming him.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Thanks, I think
she definitely has an ulterior motive. From the title of the article "CALLOUS DISREGARD FOR WORKING-CLASS TROOPS," she make the link. She completely disregards Kerry's record of supporting the troops, veterans and their families.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Interesting observation
It may be all of the above. :shrug:
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Really great letter, prosense.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. It is an attempt to falsely balance the story
by bringing in people from 'the other side' and lambasting them for their sins, whether they deserve it or not. The facts don't matter, only the perceived boost the writer believes they get from their 'a pox on both your houses' stand.

That this is dumb and poorly reasoned and detracts from their argument because it is also untrue will never occur to the writer. The need to reach for a credibility that is based on the 'I hate both sides' approach to politics is all the writer is short-sightedly looking for in this instance. Sad and pathetic. I think this reduces the argument to no argument at all. What is the point when, by the writer's own logic, no opposition is possible or meaningful?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Why not then bring in Lieberman?
She couldn't say he knew war - but it could be rewritten.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Interesting.
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 01:14 PM by ProSense
Nichols has been criticizing Democrats, but now feels the need to use Edwards a barometer to criticize MSM silence. How conevenient.

Published on Friday, March 24, 2006 by The Nation
Didn't This Call for Withdrawal From Iraq Merit Attention?
by John Nichols

Here's an interesting issue for the "liberal media" to ponder:

In January, 2004, when the Des Moines Register made an unexpected endorsement of John Edwards as the best presidential pick for participants in Iowa's Democratic Caucuses, it was national news. The Register, an extremely influential newspaper because of its wide circulation in a relatively small state, shook up the Democratic dance card. The Register's editors found themselves being interviewed on national television and radio programs, as political writers for daily newspapers across the country stumbled over themselves to assess the significance of this particularly influential newspaper's endorsement of a still relatively unknown senator. As it turned out, the attention to the endorsement was merited, as Edwards himself acknowledged that his strong second place finish in the caucuses owed much to the boost he got from one of Middle America's most historically powerful and respected publications.

So what would happen if the same newspaper were to come out this year with a strong editorial calling for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq? And what if that editorial represented a reversal of the newspaper's previous "stay-the-course position?

Would that be news? Would national media outlets that are supposedly trying to ascertain the changing sentiments of the nation with regard to the war, and that are already busy charting the 2008 presidential competition in Iowa, take notice of an important development in a bellweather state? Might it be considered significant that a large daily newspaper with a national reputation has joined what Editor & Publisher magazine's Greg Mitchell -- who has for two years been noting the lack of serious discussion about ending the war on the nation's editorial pages -- refers to as "the very thin ranks of those proposing an exit strategy"?

The answer, lamentably, is "no."

more...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0324-32.htm




The last paragraph of the Des Moines Register article:



But the military occupation of Iraq has achieved all it can. It's time to redeploy the troops, keeping in mind that the original mission has long since been achieved. No weapons of mass destruction in Iraq threaten America, and a dictator has been deposed. A democratically elected parliament is in place.

Whatever happens from here must be left up to the Iraqis themselves.


Withdrawal, yes! Mission achieved? What mission was that? Bush knew Iraq didn't have WMD before he started the war.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. That's what I got from it
My email:

Your article displays EXACTLY what is wrong with journalism in this country. While launching a much deserved attack on the war hawks of this country, at the last minute you quiver. Surely there must be a Democrat who deserves blame too. Reaching, reaching, reaching, oh yes, John Kerry. But did he really choose war? Who cares. It's the "conventional wisdom", so why bother with truth when "fairness" in journalism is the order of the day.

Did you read his floor statement on the eve of the IWR vote? Did you read his speech in Jan 2003, "Mr. President DO NOT rush to war"? Did you read his statement on the eve of war:

"My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration -- like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building -- a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush."

How DARE you say he took this country to war at all, let alone on the wings of a lie. He did everything in his power to prevent this war.

Is it your fear of offending readers that causes you to jump on the Democrat bashing bandwagon? Is it your own desire to destroy the Democratic Party in order to see the rise of a far left replacement? Whatever it is, when you distort the record of one of the ONLY people in this country who not only desires to end THIS war, but ALL wars, then the blood is on YOUR HANDS.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Excellent!
Your article displays EXACTLY what is wrong with journalism in this country. While launching a much deserved attack on the war hawks of this country, at the last minute you quiver.



After sending my letter, this is the point I forgot to include. The headline and premise are correct, but the article is laced with disinformation, an obvious personal agenda.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. But since I knew you sent yours
I could focus on this point because I knew the disinformation had been corrected. Tag Team!!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Cool!
:toast:

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Fantastic response
I hope they print yours or pro-sense's or at least read them. The Kerry comments are great - he did what he could.

Also, the fact that he made so many very clear strong public statements completely destroys the cynical arguments that he voted for the war for political reasons. If the war went well and ended with a fairy tale like democracy in June 2003, Kerry couldn't have claimed he was for it.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. So now Kerry shares responsibility for this war? Unbelievable!
Totally twisted and illogical. Where do these people come from? :banghead:
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. I saw her on Hardball during Coretta Scott King's funeral
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 02:35 PM by politicasista
She was defending Rev. Joe Lowery and others that dissed Bush and loving the long standing ovation that Bil and Hil got. Didn't she write the why Dean was right on Iraq column? It may be she wanted Dean in 2004 and Hillary in 2008.:shrug:

It's disappointing that she didn't do her research before writing this. Unfortunately the IWR argument is still with us four years later.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Maybe. The argument is
not based in fact. It is only being promoted by people with ulterior motives. Her argument is wrong on a number of levels.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. And your LTE is on point
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 03:02 PM by politicasista
A lot of minorities (AA) read the Atlanta Journal Consitituion, therefore, I think it's very important for Kerry to go on urban talk radio and newspapers and speak the truth about all this (if he wants to run again). It's clear she has a motive for distorting his stance. I do wonder if it's a backlash from 2004 cause Kerry "lost" and didn't live up the what Clinton had done. :shrug:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. That comparison can't be made.
Other than receiving more votes than any other Democratic candidate, Kerry did much better than Clinton in terms of percentage: Clinton got 43% in his first run and Kerry got 48.3% of the votes in 2004. Kerry was never president so that comparison can't be made.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. That's true...
but I guess maybe more in personality and upbringing. This is why I wished the campaingn would have let JK and Momma T tell THEIR story in their own words, not through the words of the corporate media and pundits, and you wouldn't have had people say they were "ho-hum" or "muted" on Kerry. Clinton had a story to tell.

The bottom line is that the Kerry spokespeople need to be on this ASAP! This type of reporting is what cost him the election.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. This type of story is fiction.
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 03:40 PM by ProSense
Kerry's story is fascinating. Remember when Randi played his 1970s testimony? The audience, including DU, loved it. Clinton's story is different, but it's not a barometer for what makes a good president. Also, much is different now, the glimpses of THK people have gotten through recent op-eds have been extremely well received. It's quite early for 2008 though and timing is everything. I'm sure people have gotten to and will get to know them better this time. The fact that media bias has been exposed will be a plus.


Edited to add: I remember when they tried to use similar "down home," "humble beginings" stories to endear people to Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. It is fascinating, but his campaingn should have put it out there
Only thing the urban media reported was that he wasn't connecting with voters, or motivating the base and the "Shove It" remark. It was like "screw everything else." I like your optimism on the media bias take.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. The urban media,
such as those in the NYC area, are cynnical about everything. From the underground to the mainstream, urban media plays to cynicism, some of it is genuine disdain for the establishment.

Main stream media bias is different. I know BET all too well, and saw it's transformation when Bob Johnson sold it to Viacom. Media bias is not an affliction that only Kerry has to deal with, he gets the brunt as a perceived threat. Any Democrat that attracts support, as we've seen over the past weeks and months, will be targeted.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. I agree - and not just urban radio
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 05:28 PM by karynnj
The problem he has on this is that his position was more complicated. Oddly, Edwards has it easier - his vote was a vote authorizing war and he made statements in favor of the war throughout 2003. He now agrees that war was a mistake. Very easy to understand.

Kerry clearly feels he voted for a process and that, as Bush said, it didn't mean a vote for war. Kerry's comments, op-eds, speeches etc are all in line with this. Throughout 2004, he argued that the vote for that process was right, but Bush missused the approval to attack before other options were finished. In October,2005 at Georgetown and what he said in the Senate in November, 2005 Kerry went a small step further and agreed that he was wrong to trust Bush - which was what he had said earlier at the Franken appartment. I noticed on Imus that he again though defended his vote as being right.

He needs to get a standard answer that combines these points and is clear - and repeat it verbatim each time. (the points being: it was not an open check for war for any reason, if the Pesident was a man of his word and would keep to his agreements, it {b]would have been the right vote, the President wasn't a man of his word and he is sorry he gave the President of the US credit for being so.) The only word shifted from Kerry statements is was right to would have been right with a President who followed the law. I'm sure he will do this if he runs - and he is good at this.

Kerry's Senate speech in November summarizing his positions was good - if he could summarize it and explain it informally that would be great. Sort of like when he gave the brilliant, detailed Iraq plan at NYU, then summed it up in about a minute on Letterman. Once he finds a way to talk about it, I assume he will repeat it often as he did with so many answers we know verbatim.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. That's my point also
He just needs to keep it simple and stick with it. Do you think Ms. Tucker could be targeting him cause of his past history?:shrug:
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. It's possible
Kerry's 1971 efforts and his Gulf war 1 speech likely caused many to see him as more of a pacifist than he is. Also, both the Republians and the LW tried to distort Kerry's position in 2004. The LW because they see everything as black/white and Dean who used a vote, which is fair to say Kerry was for the war- when there was sufficient information to know he wasn't.

I assume the Republicans did it, hoping Kerry would issue a clear anti-war statement that they could use to paint Kerry as weak on defense. Note that one of Bush's few intelligible comments in the first debate was to counter Kerry's critisism on Iraq (wrong war..) with how can you lead a war that you think was a mistake. This had to be canned as it was a strawman - though stupid and it pulled on Kerry's famous sentence. (Sort of saying - we know who you are - the guy who asked "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?")

The question is -given all of 2004 - can Kerry get people to see his position?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. What I think people are forgetting is
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 07:14 PM by ProSense
The public was squarely behind the war when it was launched, even though Kerry was criticizing Bush. The IWR vote was in 2002. Did the millions of American who voted for Kerry believe he was for the war? Against the war?

The point is, opposing the war now takes two forms: some now understanding that Bush lied and some just believe it was a mistake. The most important thing is not Kerry's position, but a strategy to get troops out. The IWR issue is going to have to be addressed, but not because the majority of Americans are going to want an answer. It will have to be addressed for the reason this article was written, that is as a counter to people who will make it an issue to promote their agenda. The GOP will likely try to blame Iraq on the Democrats who criticized the war and didn't support it. In fact, that's what they're doing now. Not saying that they will not try to use the other argument (supported the war), but we know Bush tried it and it didn't work.


edited typos
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. i think you're right
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 09:08 PM by karynnj
and think the November Kerry summary was good mainly for three reasons
-Countering the Bush/Cheney lies from veterans day (which gave him the chance to respond
-Showing that his positions over time were consistent and principled
-For history, putting proof in a logical speech into an archive that will likely continue to exist (if it doesn't nothing else will.)

I agree that no one could reasonably believe John Kerry was a war monger - I agree that all those who were anti-war knew he would be far less likely to start more wars than Bush. He had the anti-war vote. I think you could define 4 groups:
1 -pure anti-war, who wouldn't approve any war - Kerry got most of these (even if they didn't like him.)
2 - anti- Iraq war, but could support a war if we were in danger - This was very near Kerry's position. He likely got most of them (if not all) because he was believable on both parts, (a portion of this group might have concerns with Feingold.)
3 -agreed with Iraq, wanted someone who would protect the US and thought Bush was doing a poor job. (He did get some and this was the group he was likely gaining in with the IED from ammo from the unguarded dumps, before the Bin Laden tapes took over as the topic du jour.)
4 - agreed with Iraq, thought Bush was doing a great job

In 2004, the anti-war people alone (1+2) were slightly below 50%. Kerry needed to get some of group 3. Kerry's strategy was sensible in 2004.
Many in 3, have moved to 2 - now finally challanging the reason to go and seeing the outcome. As you say, even now - how to get out and how to reoair our relations with the world is more important than the vote in 2002.

As to the IWR vote, I do think Kerry needs a clear statement that he should use all the time - just so it doesn't become an issue in the primaries. (I also realize DU overstates these type of issues,)
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Good sumary
of those four groups. I definely agree that Kerry got nearly all of groups one and two but group three was needed to be swayed. I'd probably be in group 2 since I was anti Iraq war but not anti any war.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Agree.
I think the third group is really troubling for the Democratic Party. Group three hasn't accepted that the war is wrong because it's based on a lie. There could be a lot of fickle people among them. That's why investigations are needed. Unless the evidence is laid out, these people are not going to go along with holding Bush accountable for starting an illegal war.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Which is why we need WMD part 2
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 10:15 PM by karynnj
I really don't understand why DU is so motivated on censure, while the only one who they felt had to respond to the DSM was Senator Kerry,who was clearly infuriated by them. (They confirmed the suspicious he cautiosly suggested in the usa tody article you posted on this thread.)

When we were posting on the Kerry bashing censure thread that Feingold didn't sign, they absolutely didn't care. It's strange as that is a far bigger issue.

I think people have a hard time accepting they are wrong on big things. Those that have now concluded the war wasn't worth it may still cling to the idea that we at least had cause.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-26-06 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. And no one
made a fuss upon learning that Roberts was trying to shut down the Iraq war inquiry.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I agree that the point should be repeated
Kerry has stated his position on a few occasions. He did again on Imus the other day:

KERRY: Obviously not. No way. And I said during the campaign. I said it's the wrong war, wrong place, wrong time. I said -- look, I think everybody has made it clear that at the time, given the information that we were given, I believe it was the right vote. It was a vote based on seven-and-a-half years of destroying weapons of mass destruction, and then we lost the inspectors. We had a two-year period of no inspectors, even though we'd been destroying weapons for seven-and-a-half years, and the CIA tells you, he's got weapons. I think it was the right vote. If I'd been president, I'd have wanted that power.

But the president said he was going to do meticulous planning. He said he would exhaust the remedies of the inspections and the U.N., and he said he would go to the war as a last resort. He broke every one of those promises. And everything, every step of the way -- you just listen to Colin Powell, who tells you, there was a small cabal run by Dick Cheney and people in the White House. They captured the policy. They didn't even look at the State Department plans for the post-war period.

I went to Georgetown University in January of 2003, and I said, Mr. President, do not rush to war. The difficult part is not winning the ground war, it's winning the peace. And that's exactly what's happened.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=273&topic_id=76350


This is worth repeating, and the pre-war speech worth referencing.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. This also repeats a lot of the 2003 Truthout piece.
I just wish he'd of added a sentence like the Oct, 2005 speech and the Truthout comment - where he said that he regrets having trusted Bush. I think though it's because of the many "only Edwards apologized threads".

In reality - Senator Kerry is making a lot of really good points, reminding people of the issues at the time of the vote and what he publicly said on the eve of the war.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. An interview
that took place a week before the Democratic convention:


Q: Has your vote to authorize the president to go to war in Iraq hurt you, and has it constrained you from criticizing the war?

The president misled America. I don't know about deliberately, but he misled America, he misled the world. He misled Americans in Congress about how he was going to go to war. About what he would do. About why. We now have a new rationale for having gone to war. And I say to voters plainly and clearly: I laid out in my speech on the Senate floor precisely the steps that I think we needed to take to use the authority that we were giving the president. If I had been president, I would have used that authority more effectively....and I would have brought countries to our side through effective diplomacy, by being patient, by using up their excuses, by working through the international objections, so that if we needed to go to war we went to war with other countries on our side that shared the cost.

I have been 100% consistent. Saddam Hussein was a threat, he needed to be held accountable to the U.N. resolutions, but it needed to be done in the right way. George Bush did it in the wrong way, and broke his promises to Americans.

Q: Did Bush mislead you personally?

Well, in the sense that any senator or congressman votes based on promises of the president. I take that personally ... that he was going to do the things that he said he was going to do. And that's the job of a president. When you break (your promise on policy), you've broken your trust.

Snip…

Q: Did you vote for presidential authority to go to war because you thought the president should be given the benefit of the doubt?

I didn't give him the benefit of the doubt. Issues of war and peace go outside of partisan politics. When the president of the United States says this is the way I'm going to do something, you ought to have the right to believe that president. And if there's anything that makes me more motivated about this, it is the fact that he went back on his word with respect to an issue that involves the lives of our young Americans. Americans know that this president did not go to war as a last resort.

Q: Did he intend from the beginning to go to war, no matter what the U.N. or allies said?

But he changed that, you see. This is where the word of the president is so important. Jim Baker wrote publicly how important it was to go to the U.N. Brent Scowcroft wrote publicly. The word around Washington was, the president's father is very concerned, and they don't want to go in this direction. So the president then comes forward and says, you're right. We're going to do these other things.

Q: Was Bush merely paying lip service to trying the diplomatic route?

It appears more and more evident that that may have been the truth, which is why the president broke his word. That's why I say he misled Americans.

Q: What may have been the truth?

That they intended to go no matter what, regardless of what happened. If that is true, he even more misled the nation. If that is true.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/president/2004-07-22-kerry-cover_x.htm?csp=14
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I never saw this interview
It's great - open, honest, and very thoughtful. I loved his comment on the fact that on issues like this it isn't partisan and that the President should have been honest.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
20. Prosense -
Take a deep breath. Don't let these people get to you.
She's obviously an idiot.

If she wants to lash out at anyone, why doesn't she
lash out at the people who said this nation to war, and have no idea what that
entails??

When I see an article like that - all I can do is shake my head.
She's frustrated, and taking it out on the wrong people.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. Thanks!
:pals:
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